There's just one turret press that auto indexes, the Lee. All other turret presses are hand indexed (as far as I know) and most people using them load doing one step at a time (ie.; size/deprime all, fare all, prime all, seat all bullets, crimp all, if necessary). Like a single stage with multiple dies...
one man's reloading economics
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Hokie_PhD
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thomas15
Member
I handloaded probably 20K handgun rounds, one particular single project was 6K on a single stage turret before I finally threw up the white flag and decided that in order to have a life and also shoot I needed something faster.
I can totally relate to your comment about laughing because I likewise chuckle when posters gas eloquent about all of the fun they have punching out a hundred rounds here and there on their lightning fast semi-progressive turret press.
But it's what makes us happy that really matters.
thomas15
Member
I guess it comes down to time management. I use a vibratory tumbler and it gets my brass clean enough. I takes about 4 hours for me to do a load of about 400 pcs 9mm brass. There have been times when I let my supply of clean brass get so low that I had to set aside handloading activities because there was a backlog of dirty brass.
Three ways to solve the problem, two of them cost money. The first is buy another tumbler or one that has a faster cycle time (a wet pin tumbler). Another is obtain a big enough brass supply so that you always have clean brass available (may or may not cost more money). The third is budget your time and clean brass supply better. This costs no money but could since there are only just so many hours in a day and most of us have other responsibilities besides firearms hobbies this can sometimes get out of control thru no fault of our own.
Three ways to solve the problem, two of them cost money. The first is buy another tumbler or one that has a faster cycle time (a wet pin tumbler). Another is obtain a big enough brass supply so that you always have clean brass available (may or may not cost more money). The third is budget your time and clean brass supply better. This costs no money but could since there are only just so many hours in a day and most of us have other responsibilities besides firearms hobbies this can sometimes get out of control thru no fault of our own.
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Hokie_PhD
Member
Hey watch it!
I resemble that remark, well except for the eloquent, lol
Seriously, though, It’s all in what folks want and need and what they like. I’ve said it before, but that LCT press is an excellent press to start with for the money. Sure it’s not a progressive but if you’re not cranking out large amounts of ammo it’ll work well and allow you to work up to some decent amount while deciding if a progressive is a good upgrade.
When I was researching what to get, I almost decided on starting with a progressive. Most articles said to start with a single stage and work up to the progressive. But there were a few that said starting with a progressive is ok if you have a good attention to detail, and have the right mindset and understanding of what’s going on.
Looking back, I know that had I gone that route that I would have been fine, in my case though, money was tight and I wasn’t shooting as much as I’d have liked. On top of that, I was still recovering from having my classroom shot up.
So making small batches of ammo with different combos of components and charges and going to the range and trying them was much more interesting to me than blasting large amounts of ammo on a trip. As I got some loads I liked, making them faster was becoming more of a need. But I’m still not making tons of ammo so the progressive still meets my needs right now. Plus I really do enjoy making smaller batches and working slowly. Knowing the ammo is consistent and better than the cheap stuff I bought when I first starting shooting is a source of pride for me.
Now, I’m getting to the point of thinking about a progressive. The thing is that the $125 or so I paid for the LCT has paid for itself in enjoyment, rounds made etc. But even when I add another press or two it’ll still get use as I still value those small batches and the joy I get slowing down and enjoying the process. I suspect I’m going to have to figure out how to do that and also enjoy making larger batches of ammo faster too.
So yes, very much it’s all good and to many of us it’s about the joy not the dollars. But saving a few is nice
Hokie_PhD
Member
I’m going to have to repost my bare bones setup. I think many would be surprised at what the required things are vs what the nice things to have are.
I honestly think that it was really good for me to have to piece together the things I needed to get started. First it forced me to figure out what I really needed to learn to make ammo. But it also taught me that there were ways to do things to save money. It also taught me that there are lots of gimmicky things out there and things do because everyone else does, not because they’re needed.
The reality is one needs a way to clean the brass but it doesn’t have to shine. Make sure the brass isn’t damaged and within spec. One has to decamp the old primer, then replace it with a new one. You need to be able to measure the right amount of powder and put it in the case, then you need to put the bullet in the charged case at the right depth. Then repeat, or batch the steps.
I know seeing that might trigger some as too easy, but that’s the steps. Now how we do each of those steps is open to discussion, but when we go back to the basics I don’t think anyone can argue that they’re doing anything else. What we do to make each step, determines what gear we need.
thomas15
Member
My Dad ran a Jr. Rifle Club for about 20 years. The competition teams he developed were quite successful, numerous multi-state individual and team champions, college scholarship winners, an appointment to West Point. I can go on and on. I have 3 older sisters and two younger brothers, all can and do shoot still to this day. One of my brothers has been to Camp Perry about 25 times and had a full NCAA 4 year college ticket.
When I think back on my days as a kid there was a time when on Friday evenings a bunch of older (and really cool) kids would show up at our house and get into our car and go shooting while I watched them leave from my bedroom window, in my PJs. That was just the way it was. Then on May 6, 1967 (in 3 days it will be 51 years ago) things changed. The cool kids came over a little bit earlier than usual, they watched me blow out the candles on my birthday cake, ate some of it then all cheered when my Dad made the announcement, "Tom, get into the car, lets go shooting!" It was my 9th birthday and it happened to be on a Friday. My Mom told me years later that my brother who was 15 months younger than me, cried and cried that night, he wanted to go too! My Dad actually kept me home later than he wanted knowing my brother would be unhappy so 3 months later, on his 8th birthday, he joined us every Friday night. The whole thing (shooting rifles) was to us, normal.
Over the years I have accumulated a lot of stuff and had a lot of fun. I have 10s of 1000s of dollars worth of inventory. As a kid there was never a time when you needed something shooting related where you went to the local store and it was sitting on the shelf. Those who compete learn early on that the tackle we use is specialized, has to be ordered and cost a ton of money. The Leslie Edelman catalog was a permanent fixture on our living room lamp table.
So when I decided to finally get busy and start handloading it took me about 3 seconds to decide that I wanted both quality and speed and that translates into money. I did not put everything I have today on my bench the first week and I have made a few purchase mistakes. But I find myself on the firing line at least 2 times/week, dry fire the rest of the days and if I were to calculate the cost of what is in my main handgun range bag, what I drag to the range normally, the cost would be +/- $5K so an extra 1 or 2 hundred dollars isn't going to change the course of my life that much. Right now I belong to 4 private gun clubs! It's in the genes and the blood so I have learned to deal with it. I'm to the point in my life where I shoot strictly for fun, I compete all the time but my eyesight isn't good so I'm a middle of the pack shooter but it's what I do.
There is also the opportunity cost of not investing the money for a return. If you do all of the math, you have to reload and shoot a heck of a lot of ammo to break even much less save money. I purchased my reloading kit about 25 years ago and even with the help of inflation, I have never saved any money. The advantage I get from reloading is very accurate and taylored ammo for each firearm. I shoot (maybe) a couple hundred rounds a year so reloading will never be a savings adventure for me but, my firearms are very accurate. I enjoy the tayloring and the accuracy - the reloading is a cost hobby and always will be (for me).
I started with the Lee hand press kit,( ram prime, funnel, case lube) a set of Lee 45 acp dies. Scale, calipers, and the Lee's Modern manual.
Washed brass in a plastic bucket with a couple drops of dish soap in it. (still my preferred method now, because it cost nothing, and is faster than any other method)
I bought a pound of powder, a flat of primers and a box of fmj bullets locally at gander if I recall.
I started low and next range trip I tried them(eyes shut on that first one), my first few rounds worked in my M&P, they felt weak and I nudged the load up a couple tenths and loaded the rest of my components that night. The next range trip was so fun because it was very satisfying to shoot those rounds. Except they were all gone in a hand full of minutes and it took me two hours to load them.
Within a couple days I ordered up my LCT, with a measure and an extra turret/puck and a 9mm die set. Then I went component shopping, buying what I knew was right(I had spent some time reading around here and other places before then), and in bulk. I never looked back.
I loathe the "get a SS press, you'll love it" message and refuse to advise anyone start there unless they are only interested in making a few hunting rounds or precision rifle and never ever anything else. That tech is from 100 years ago, there is no reason to go back in time.
The LCT is still the world beater as far as I am concerned.
Washed brass in a plastic bucket with a couple drops of dish soap in it. (still my preferred method now, because it cost nothing, and is faster than any other method)
I bought a pound of powder, a flat of primers and a box of fmj bullets locally at gander if I recall.
I started low and next range trip I tried them(eyes shut on that first one), my first few rounds worked in my M&P, they felt weak and I nudged the load up a couple tenths and loaded the rest of my components that night. The next range trip was so fun because it was very satisfying to shoot those rounds. Except they were all gone in a hand full of minutes and it took me two hours to load them.
Within a couple days I ordered up my LCT, with a measure and an extra turret/puck and a 9mm die set. Then I went component shopping, buying what I knew was right(I had spent some time reading around here and other places before then), and in bulk. I never looked back.
I loathe the "get a SS press, you'll love it" message and refuse to advise anyone start there unless they are only interested in making a few hunting rounds or precision rifle and never ever anything else. That tech is from 100 years ago, there is no reason to go back in time.
The LCT is still the world beater as far as I am concerned.
Blue68f100
Member
When I made the decision to move to a AP, I figured I would pay for all the equipment after 8k rounds. I was shooting 10k rounds a year, a no brainier. The decision was easy for I could not keep up with demand with a SS press. What most don't figure in initially is the cost of components need to feed a AP. That alone will come close to or more that the cost of equipment. And this cost never goes away. You will still need a SS press at some point.
You can learn on a AP provide your able to run 1 die and 1 pc of brass at a time till you get every thing setup correctly. This is key when setting up a progressive. Then you populate the dies and run single brass through start to finish. Once the settings are confirmed then you start in with full AP. You just go slow at first till you get comfortable with all the things that are happening at once.
Time management will still be required, since you have to clean the brass and have it ready when needed. And you need the upmost free uninterrupted time when you set down to load. Those AP can produce a lot of rounds fast they can also produce BAD ammo just as fast. Then your faced with breaking the rounds down to fix a problem because you were in a hurry or got distracted.
You can learn on a AP provide your able to run 1 die and 1 pc of brass at a time till you get every thing setup correctly. This is key when setting up a progressive. Then you populate the dies and run single brass through start to finish. Once the settings are confirmed then you start in with full AP. You just go slow at first till you get comfortable with all the things that are happening at once.
Time management will still be required, since you have to clean the brass and have it ready when needed. And you need the upmost free uninterrupted time when you set down to load. Those AP can produce a lot of rounds fast they can also produce BAD ammo just as fast. Then your faced with breaking the rounds down to fix a problem because you were in a hurry or got distracted.
thomas15
Member
In the same vain...
In the First Edition (1962) of the Handloaders Digest (and I'm sure other contemporary sources), an intro to handloading article states that those interested in learning to handload should pick up copy of the Ideal Handloaders manual and read it cover to cover. The Ideal book, last published in (I think) 1958 went on to become the Lyman Handloading Manual. At the time it was about 150 pages and an easy (general information) read. The article goes on to say that if you actually start handloading purchase an actual reloaders manual. Thus implying that the Ideal book isn't enough on it's own. From that humble advice of yesteryear, we now get some who state with authority to inquiring newbs, get a 700 page reloading manual and read it cover to cover at least 3 times before you do anything. This is taking what was once a pamphlet and applying it to an encyclopedia. It is dumb advice but it seems to have a life of it's own and cannot be stopped.
The same advice is given with respect to the ABC book. It is true that the information in that book is accurate. It is also true that the information is dated, much of it not useful to a beginner metallic cartridge handloader in 2018 and the important information contained is repeated in just about any modern reloaders manual, which is something every handloader should own anyway. So those who are cost conscience are doing the brethren no favors by recommending that they spend $20.00 on a book that they don't need and will browse once or twice and never crack open again.
If you want to save more money reloading, buy a Weather by.
It starts as money saving and morphs into just because.
I got into reloading in the 1970's when it was possible to really save money doing it for yourself - particularly as a graduate student making $3.25 an hour.
Today the savings are marginal; particularly with commodity cartridges like 9mm and 223. If, like me, you shoot to support your reloading habit then the entire enterprise is a hobby and cost is irrelevant (so long as you're not depriving yourself or your family of necessities to support the hobby) because you would - as I do - reload everything I shoot regardless of the cost advantage/disadvantage.
But, if someone is going to make a meaningful comparison of what they are "saving" by reloading, then they need to make the computation using what the cost accountants call "full absorption accounting". This takes into account ALL costs that go into both the reloaded ammunition (including cost of the components, the value of time, the value of the space the equipment occupies, pro-rata share of utilities, etc.) versus the cost of the factory ammunition (including time to go purchase it, the cost of driving to the store, sales tax, etc.). Unless you value your time at about the same level as a Bangladeshi child chained to a sewing machine making clothes for the American market, there is unlikely to be any savings.
Sure, you can pick and choose which costs you want to compare by looking at the purchase price of the factory ammunition and comparing it to the direct costs of reloaded ammunition and come up with some advantage to reloading, but as far as whether or not you're "saving" any money, you'd just be fooling yourself.
Today the savings are marginal; particularly with commodity cartridges like 9mm and 223. If, like me, you shoot to support your reloading habit then the entire enterprise is a hobby and cost is irrelevant (so long as you're not depriving yourself or your family of necessities to support the hobby) because you would - as I do - reload everything I shoot regardless of the cost advantage/disadvantage.
But, if someone is going to make a meaningful comparison of what they are "saving" by reloading, then they need to make the computation using what the cost accountants call "full absorption accounting". This takes into account ALL costs that go into both the reloaded ammunition (including cost of the components, the value of time, the value of the space the equipment occupies, pro-rata share of utilities, etc.) versus the cost of the factory ammunition (including time to go purchase it, the cost of driving to the store, sales tax, etc.). Unless you value your time at about the same level as a Bangladeshi child chained to a sewing machine making clothes for the American market, there is unlikely to be any savings.
Sure, you can pick and choose which costs you want to compare by looking at the purchase price of the factory ammunition and comparing it to the direct costs of reloaded ammunition and come up with some advantage to reloading, but as far as whether or not you're "saving" any money, you'd just be fooling yourself.
I got a Lee turret press maybe 14 years ago and disabled the auto index feature 13.9 years ago. I hand indexed since then (until I got my Co-Ax) and one reason is because I have no need for a "semi-progressive" press, If I did I would go Dillon. The benefits of hand indexing outweigh the auto-indexing for me as I most often batch load and do maybe 100 cases, one step at a time, plus I do a lot of "experimenting" with loads and sometimes only load 10 rounds for checking. Most of the time I'll process a round, either handgun or rifle cartridges, to the point of just needing a charge of powder and a bullet (I have a few hundred "ready to charge" cases waiting). I also feel I have more "control" when I hand index, and the turret presses available, sans auto-index, are mostly quality manufactured, precise tools, even if one has to go to the time and trouble of turning a turret by hand...
splattergun
Member
Some of my expenses;
Benches (2), free. scavenged from work.
chair, free scavenged from work
Lighting, free inherited from late FIL
1st press, free (gift)
2nd and 3rd presses, bought on sale. One-time purchase equipment and books amortized over the years... still counting. Getting cheaper each year.
Used manuals, just a few dollars each or free. Data from powder manufacturers, free.
Most die sets bought on sale.
Most brass free.
Most other components bought on sale and/or in bulk.
My time, $0 per hour. It makes no sense to 'charge' myself for hobby time. No one is paying me to build my own custom ammo! And no one pays me to go fishing, either, but I still spend money on it and love doing it..
Yeah, my custom-built ammo is A LOT less expensive than buying cheap target fodder from the box store. And I DON'T enjoy driving to the store and forkiing over money for ammo built by foreign-owned companies.
Benches (2), free. scavenged from work.
chair, free scavenged from work
Lighting, free inherited from late FIL
1st press, free (gift)
2nd and 3rd presses, bought on sale. One-time purchase equipment and books amortized over the years... still counting. Getting cheaper each year.
Used manuals, just a few dollars each or free. Data from powder manufacturers, free.
Most die sets bought on sale.
Most brass free.
Most other components bought on sale and/or in bulk.
My time, $0 per hour. It makes no sense to 'charge' myself for hobby time. No one is paying me to build my own custom ammo! And no one pays me to go fishing, either, but I still spend money on it and love doing it..
Yeah, my custom-built ammo is A LOT less expensive than buying cheap target fodder from the box store. And I DON'T enjoy driving to the store and forkiing over money for ammo built by foreign-owned companies.
Dudedog
Contributing Member
I have and like my LNL progressive, but if I am testing or just want a small batch I use my old "Deluxe" 3 hole Lee Turret.
I also use if for things I don't load as much, .38/.357 for example. Capable of making good .223 and 7mm Rem mag ammo as well.
20,000, 30,000?? rounds on it so I would say a got my moneys worth.
I think the Lee turret is a great first press for pistol ammo.
You may want something faster in the future, but the turret will still be useful and it's not that much more money than a single stage.
I you look at threads here most everyone who owns one is happy with it.
I also use if for things I don't load as much, .38/.357 for example. Capable of making good .223 and 7mm Rem mag ammo as well.
20,000, 30,000?? rounds on it so I would say a got my moneys worth.
I think the Lee turret is a great first press for pistol ammo.
You may want something faster in the future, but the turret will still be useful and it's not that much more money than a single stage.
I you look at threads here most everyone who owns one is happy with it.
brewer12345
Member
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There are lots of cartridges where reloading saves you serious coin (hello, 44 mag, let alone weird/obsolete cartridges), but even the basics can be cheap. I paid about 3 cents delivered for my latest 38 special brass purchase. Considering the number of reloads I get from each one, that is nearly free. So 3 cents for a home cast bullet, 2 cents for a primer, and a penny for powder and you have 38 special that will make itty bitty groups from a revolver or rifle for $3 a box. Zombie killing power for the price of ,22 LR, what is not to like? Sometime soon I will get around to buying a 1911. The economics look pretty similar except the brass will actually cost something because I won't be able to find all of it.
rjbmjb
Member
I agree if the only goal is to save money, you only load a few calibers and you would be doing something productive (I.e. income producing) with the time spent reloading. I guess everyone is different- I started reloading back when I had a high stress job, so, for me, there was a therapeutic component. I enjoy loading ammo and it provided an escape from the job pressures. If I applied "full absorption accounting", I would also have to deduct the cost of therapy sessions and bar tabs if I didn't reload (I would have to do something with the free time and I was on salary, so extra work hours didn't get me anything). I figure the money I saved on alcohol and therapy sessions is more than I have spent on equipment and components, so my "savings" is darn near 100%
The real problem with the cost analysis (for me) is the irresistible urge to buy guns in different calibers just so I can reload the cartridges, even if the costs are higher. I started loading 308 to save money, but I found that I like reloading just as much a shooting. Seven years later, I now have over 70 hand guns and long guns. I reload for 54 guns (31 different calibers- the rest are either 22lr or black powder). I still don't have a 357 magnum or a 40 cal handgun, and most of my long guns are WWI and WWII and shotguns (yes- I load shotgun for more than target loads cost), so I still have lots of calibers to add to the collection. When I add in the cost of the guns, the savings goes into negative numbers, especially if New York State decides to confiscate my weapons before my heirs can sell them (I can't bring myself to sell any of them myself. One of my saddest experiences at a gun show was a conversation with a guy who was selling his gun collection because no one in his family was interested in keeping them). As the number of guns increases, it is harder to shoot each one enough to justify loading the ammo. For example, I have a Nagant revolver that I load rounds for. Since it is an obscure cartridge, I save at least 16 cents in component costs per round, but I shoot less than 50 rounds every few years, so the payback for just the dies is something around 15-20 years. Fortunately, the reverse is also true. I load 7.62x39 for 6 cents more than factory, but since I don't shoot my AK47 and SKS very often, I don't lose a lot of money even though I will never recover the cost of the dies (same goes for my 7.62x54R nagant rounds).
All that being said, my logs show that the 18,000 rounds I have loaded cost about $1,500 less than the cost of the components and equipment. (The savings would be more if I didn't have 9 presses, a tumbler and sonic cleaner that I no longer use since I switched to wet tumbling, a couple of powder measures I no longer use since I got my electronic dispenser,I spent a lot of time and money on various lube processes until I switched to powder coating, a shot maker that I played with but seldom use, etc). The savings also doesn't factor in the value of the equipment I own.
The calibers you reload also make a difference. As noted above, 9MM, 223 and other popular calibers currently don't offer much savings over factory ammo. Other (mostly older rifle and larger pistol) calibers offer more savings. For example, I save over $1.62 per round for my S&W 500, $1.20 for my 30-40 Krag, and $.35 for 44 Mag, all are over 75% less than factory ammo. Since I load more of these calibers, my savings are more than someone with a 9MM pistol and and 223 AR15, and they make up for the calibers that save less or cost more than factory loads.
Then there are the intangibles- I still remember the first handload I fired and the satisfaction of seeing the holes in the target from ammo I made, I have loads for my S&W 500 and 44Mag S&W model 29 that don't break my wrists after 2 rounds (that becomes more important as you get older- trust me), I have light 30 30 loads that I shoot at bottles on my pistol range that don't burn up the barrel and higher power loads that work out to 100 yards, I cast and load 45-70 for 21 cents a round (compared to $1.25+ for purchased ammo) so I don't worry about cost when I take out my Sharps 1898 or Springfield trap door. I have a lot of old military guns I bought at shows for $200-$300, and most of them are still incredibly accurate once you find the right load. My son can drive nails with my Swiss K31 and my handloads (I wish I still had his eyes), I have so much powder, primers, bullets, and lead (for casting) in inventory that I could have easily survived a Hillary presidency and I have no fear of a Zombie Apocalypse since I will run out of zombies before I run out of ammo (and I will actually have a use for my 2 M1919s (semi-auto, remember, I live in New York)).
Compared to hdwit and a lot of other guys on this forum, at 18,000 rounds loaded over 7 years, I am still a newbie. But I do agree that, in terms of dollars spent, reloading will not save most guys any money, since they will shoot more, buy more equipment, buy more guns, etc. Reloading will allow you to shoot more, learn more and get more satisfaction from the shooting sports, especially if you follow the advice of the experienced guys on this forum. A modest investment in components will help you through tough times like the Obama years. I also agree with the guys on this forum who recommend to start small and build up your equipment over time. Starter kits can get you loading quickly for a relatively small investment, but a little bit of time on this forum can help you avoid spending money on things you will not use or will replace with something different somewhere down the road. when I started, I bought an RCBS rockchucker kit. Over the last 7 years, I have replaced most of the tools in the kit, but it did allow me to load several rifle calibers without spending a lot of money on extras and give me the opportunity to decide if reloading was something I was interested in pursuing.
someguy2800
Member
For a person only loading pistol ammo a lee pro 1000 or the new auto breechlock pro are awsome efficient setups. Loading pistol ammo single stage you spend Like 50% of your time taking brass in and out of the shell holder.
If you get the case feeder you can just dump the brass in the collator and it feeds through and ejects without touching it. If you prefer to decap before tumbling just run the brass through with just the sizing die first, then run it through again with the powder through expanding die with powder measure on top, bullet seating die, and crimp die.
Nothing wrong with doing it single stage but just something to consider if you get burned out with it. The cost to upgrade is only $200 or so.
If you get the case feeder you can just dump the brass in the collator and it feeds through and ejects without touching it. If you prefer to decap before tumbling just run the brass through with just the sizing die first, then run it through again with the powder through expanding die with powder measure on top, bullet seating die, and crimp die.
Nothing wrong with doing it single stage but just something to consider if you get burned out with it. The cost to upgrade is only $200 or so.
sparkyv
Member
sparkyv
Member
IF you'e talking pistol brass, cleaning is not necessary unless youre dealing with muddied up range pick ups. Charles Petty wrote about this. I've never had an issue with not cleaning my own pistol brass. Yet another way to save on your initial setup.
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