Gunsmith or armorer? What's the difference?

rpenmanparker said:

Or maybe even that the armorer was a gunsmith trying to sound more important.

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I found it faintly amusing that you perceived the title Armorer as being more highly respected than the title Gunsmith and wondered what was the basis of that perception.

A rule-of-thumb definition would be that a gunsmith is an artist, while an armorer is a technician.

The modern definitions of what each are capable of can become a bit blurred due to the easy availability of g00d aftermarket parts

It depends on where the term is being used.

In our armed forces, the best armorers are the functional equivalent of gunsmiths. This would include the Marine armourers who build rifles or the Army's Welding and Machine Operators who do the same. The Army doesn't have an armourer MOS like the Marines do. Both USA and the USMC have lower echelon armorers who, depending on the level they work at, are parts swappers with the higher the level of training and assignment, the more difficult the work they can do. A classmate of mine was recruited by the AMU and works on pistols for the AMU (AMU went to TSJC and Colorado School of Trades looking for recruits). Britain's REME trained armourers are similarly trained (they can operate lathes, mills, weld) and a good book is Peter Laidler's book on the No 4(T). He describes his apprenticeship in the REME and how he had to build a sniper rifle to demonstrate his eligibility to become an armourer.

In law enforcement, armorers are like the lower echelon military armorers in that they are just parts swappers. I did that for a spell but never rebarreled anything like a gunsmith.

In the civilian world, there is no standard for gunsmiths. Even if the person is school trained, no two gunsmithing schools are alike. The better schools teach machine operation, welding, and stockmaking as well as repair work. The quality of instruction varies. The quality of a school changes too depending on the cirriculum and the instructors. There are also shadetree mechanics/gunsmiths, joe hobby, gun plumbers who call themselves as gunsmiths. There are no standards and I have a friend who works as a gunsmith but has never learned to operate a lathe/milling machine. He works as an armorer for numerous law enforcement agencies too. Additionally, some gunsmiths specialize narrowly in the areas that they work: shotguns, rifles, handguns, custom builders, or even just engraving or finishing. Take your pick.

BTW, both Germany and Austria have four year gunsmithing schools where the students build an entire action from scratch. They're also taught to decorate (engrave, checker) at those schools. The Austrian school has two programs with the four year being gunsmithing and the five years one being a gun designer. I know the Russians and the Chinese both operate gun designer schools where students are taught the operation and the engineering principles of firearms. They have access to many designs that they can study. I happened to buy a copy of the Chinese manual which in itself is a copy of the Russian manual. Too bad I can't read it.

blindhari - what year did you get those first generation Starlights. I was talking with a former Thunderbird soldier and he told me they played with them a year before the Starlight was shipped off to Nam. The tubes were burned out by a year's time.

Diagnosing a problem is not as easy as one thinks especially if you're relying on someone's written communication and you don't get to physically examine the piece in question. I once suggested something about a bolt action rifle that was difficult to open after firing. I could have throttled the user after he responded that my suggestion was wrong and then provided additional information that would have led to me another conclusion the first time. I backed off from the conversation after that. It is like law. How a client asks a question affects how the attorney responds to that question.

In our armed forces, the best armorers are the functional equivalent of gunsmiths.

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Even the really good armorers in the military are still narrowly focused when it comes to the firearms they are knowledgeable about. I would agree that they are far more advanced than a typical armorer and closer to a true gunsmith than to an armorer.

My classmate at TSJC visits Germany frequently and he went to one shop where the worker had a cube sitting atop of a plate. It was all one piece of steel. To pass his apprenticeship program, the man had to file a cube that is sitting on its corner atop of a flat plate -- all one piece of steel.

rpenmanparker - don't underestimate filing skill. Gunsmiths who make guns have to get a lot of parts in an action to lock up simultaneously and smoke and file fit. English apprentice gunsmiths also have to become skilled with the file. I was told of one TSJC grad who went to work at a prestigious British gunmaker as an apprentice. He spent years filing.

Even Cylinder and Slide's Bill Laughridge told us that filing is an important skill.

On that low note, I think we can close this thread...as the original question has been well answered

What do you call 45B, Small Arms Repair?

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Dunno. Parts swapping is generally armorers' work. Modifying and customizing parts, making parts are not things armorers normally do. That's generally within the realm of gunsmiths. I mentioned my classmate who is probably a sergeant now and works at the AMU. He does everything a custom handgunsmith does but for the Army.

interestingly the same debate arises within the blackpowder community. First some hystery. In olde Europe, you had guilds that had blacksmiths, whitesmiths (the guys who filed things bright), lockmakers, barrel makers, gunstockers, engravers. It all depends on the practice of the region and how independent the person is. In Germany, an apprentice spent years in his lehrzeit. Once he finished he received his apprenticeship, he was obligated to begin his traveling years as a journeyman (Die Gesellenzeit) during which he presented his geselle (proof of employment) and wanderbuch (wandering book) to different masters. They would agree to a length of time during which he would work under the master. After several years of working for various masters, he presented his apprenticeship certificate, his proof of geselle and wanderbuch to the guild. If the guild found his papers in order, he was allowed to work as a master during which he may not employ any journeymen or take on any apprentices. In a year's time, he was to present his masterpiece which was examined and after an oral examination, was either approved or disapproved. After three years, he could take on apprentices. That was once attempted here but poor communication, distances killed the European guild type system.

Modernly most flintlock/longrifle gunbuilders generally don't make their own barrels or locks. Few have. Those who are accepted and finish the apprenticeship at Colonial Williamsburg have. There is one gunsmith, Brad Emig (Cabin Creek Muzzleloaders) who has too. Some cast their own thimbles, buttplates, sideplates and cut their own inlays. But the vast majority buy barrels and locks. So are they gunstockers or gunsmiths? Some argue they are gunsmiths but many great builders modestly call themselves gunstockers. BTW, you have guys at Conner Prairie who can hand made a barrel from forging. They won't rifle (no desire for that as they are primarily blacksmiths) it though but can get them rifled.