Deer rifle for 12-13 YO, 6.5 Grendel?

Another youth deer rifle thread!

Powerful enough to kill.
Light enough to carry.
Balance the previous two so they don't flinch.

Some varied thoughts...

labnoti said:

But then why carry the heavier, longer action?

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Many discussions like this are the fruit of the incessant value engineering we see everyday. At the extreme, we keep whittling until the caliber doesn't reliably have the energy to take large game OR we argue the limit at which large game should be taken OR we argue the definition of large game.

No one on this forum except the OP knows the OP's sons. This is a difficult balance to have a good hunting experience, an effective caliber, and to fortify confidence in the adolescent through practice so that they are able to take the animal.

It's ok to start with something intermediate. There is no argument there, especially when they have only shot 22LR. The future problem is...

Varminterror said:

But they’ll quickly grow out of that.

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It's like playing for the league minimum. Most kids can see that their deer caliber is not the same as most adults'. There can be some aspiration to prove they are grown by jumping up in caliber.

In a couple of short years, they will have developed in adolescence where recoil isn't the driving issue anymore. And it happens fast. In fact, they may want to see how much recoil they can handle. By the time they are 15 years old, it's very likely that they would be able to shoot a 308Win without issue. I'm not talking about 500 round weekend mag dumps, but enough to have practiced proficiency and taking a deer should only be one shot.

A lot depends on the desire of the adolescent. Maybe they enjoy shooting, but don't really want to go hunting because it's a lot of walking, sitting, being quiet, and attentive... for just one shot.

labnoti said:

Suppose in a few years he's ready to handle more recoil and start shooting at higher energy levels. What does that get him besides more recoil?

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A caliber that has more margin than 6.5G. For years, I would have never thought a forum would recommend a youth rifle below 243Win power, but with the increased interest and availability high bc bullets in intermediate cartridges the effective ranges have increased and made this possible. I get it - the range of an ethical shot overlaps with the range of a 6.5G. OTOH, it is kind of hilarious when gun writers call 308Win recoil harsh. It begs the question of comparison.

Many, many people have taken their first deer with a 243, 7-08, 7.62x39, 30-30, or even a 357mag or 44mag carbine!

This is my opinion, but part of today's gun culture and advertising overemphasizes the use/need for low drag or long range bullets for hunting. There, I said it. It's almost like bc's in the .4's are looked down upon. I'm not going to go full out Chuck Hawks here, but sub moa groups are not required to hit the 8" kill zone of a deer.

While I'm not saying the OP is arguing this, those who would make a case for "Why would an adult need more than a 6.5G to deer hunt?" is kind of a silly question. I agree with the poster above, there are many DRT calibers, but 6.5G isn't one of them. Sure, it will work. Yes,it is adequate within ethical ranges. It's just that most adult hunters would give up a little more comfort for the possibility of a quicker kill and less tracking.

Lead...

Goosey said:

Kids are more susceptible to the effects of lead, though.

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I feel the level of the leaded primer argument in this thread is somewhat tin foil hat worthy. By all means, use your conscience - you are the parent - but being in contracting, the regulations for lead remediation and remodeling is for children 0-5 years old. They are the most susceptible to the ill affects of lead exposure while the CNS is developing. Again, we're talking about exposure and common sense. Don't take kids to the smoky indoor range all day. However, lead based primers when shot outdoors have such a miniscule affect on blood lead levels. Seriously... old plumbing is probably worse. And if you are concerned with toxicity, french fries are probably worse (haha). Solid lead, as in shards of the bullet in game, passes through with little exposure. A simple blood test before is all it takes to gauge exposure.

cougar1717 said:

There can be some aspiration to prove they are grown by jumping up in caliber.

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I tend to believe that playing shell games with the mental perception of children isn’t productive.

I would rather encourage a kid who starts with a 6.5 Grendel or .243win to realize, for his or her entire life, that cartridge which was “enough” as a kid will ALWAYS be “enough.”

94045 said:

My cousins son has no issue with a Model 7 Youth in .243 or my 8.25 lb (Includes Scope) in 6.5 CM. Really Ive been impressed by the performance of the .223 75 Grain Speer Gold Dots on deer. They will break a front shoulder on a quartering shot and still make it to the skin on the far side. Found perfectly mushroomed. Only caveat is they suggest a sub-20" barrel to insure adequate penetration. In the past I would have never recommended a .223 but modern bullets have changed the game.

I'm likely less worried about recoil than you.
After starting at 9 on a single shot 20 ga, 12 ga at 11 and 3" Mags at 12 my first deer rifle was a .270 Win.

My buddie's 11 year old daughter (70 lb?) Shoots a .375 H&H from the bench then wants to do it again. Her Mother's preferred rifle for the big stuff is a .404 Jeffery and she might weigh 110 lb soaking wet.

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When presented with attractive, accurate rifles that recoil significantly less, it's always interesting to watch which guns people gravitate to at the range. Rarely is it ever the harder kicking ones and if it is, it usually doesn't last very long.

By age 9 my son had already fired rounds from a .300 Win Mag and .50 cal muzzleloader with 150gr charge of Triple 7. No ill effects, no flinch, and no bruises because recoil was mitigated. While he’s grown into a big for his age teen he was no more than a slight build at the time. That gave him confidence in being able to handle the 12ga 870 and front stuffer he has now. That, and continuing to replace cheap recoil pads. They work as do muzzle brakes as does doubling ear pro, especially when used together.

Here is what I carried last year for deer season in the rifle area. Didn't need it since I didn't see a deer.
The recoil of the 6.5 Grendel feels only slightly more than 223.
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/show...(HMY30603-)&highlight=howa+mini+grendel+youth

We have tried our kids with both .223 and 6.5 Grendel on deer. The Grendel is a good choice, and much better than .223 on deer. The .223 kills fine, but the blood trail is not what you're used to with the usual centerfire rounds. The deer will die with the .223, but some of them would have been easier to find if shot with the Grendel.

I would look at some other rounds than the SST in the Grendel. It works great on unchallenging shot placement, but comes apart too easily if you get into bone, etc. to be dependable for exit wounds. The Federal Fusion or another tougher 120gr bullet from a smaller manufacturer would be better.

fpgt72 said:

I am not going to read all this....but good grief.

What happened to 30-30, 243....and a host of other choices that have been around and stood the test of time.....are children today that soft.

Hand the kid a lever 30-30 and tell him to go.

Now get off my lawn.

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30/30 hurts. It is the guns that fire it, not the ammo itself. I got one at eleven and was surprised some years later that my .300WM was more pleasant to shoot. It's kind of the same deal as those single barrel 20ga. Good grief is the recoil awful, much worse than my Beretta 12ga.

And believe it or not, 6.5 Grendel works better on deer at the usual ranges than .243 in the blood trail department. This in a handy rifle with an adjustable stock for short and growing arms.

Things have improved such that those old options have not stood the test of time.

Just had a thought. How about Savage/Federals new .224 Valkyrie?

90 Grain Bullet at 2700 fps thats super sonic to over 1000 yd (at most altitudes) and less half the recoil of a 6.5 CM. I think Savage says it's 4.3 lb out of of one of their MSR15 Rifles.

I would say if you are really trying to reduce recoil, want a heavier bullet than the typical .223 and want it to fit in a Mini-Action it wouldnt be a bad choice. Federals supposed to pricing ammo aggressively also.

urbaneruralite said:

30/30 hurts. It is the guns that fire it, not the ammo itself. I got one at eleven and was surprised some years later that my .300WM was more pleasant to shoot. It's kind of the same deal as those single barrel 20ga. Good grief is the recoil awful, much worse than my Beretta 12ga.

Things have improved such that those old options have not stood the test of time.

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LOL, My first two guns were a pre-64 30-30 with a metal butt plate and a single shot H&R 20 gauge. They both kicked like hell.

There are so many better options these days. Folks need to get with the times IMO. #changeisHARD LOL

Newtosavage said:

LOL, My first two guns were a pre-64 30-30 with a metal butt plate and a single shot H&R 20 gauge. They both kicked like hell.

There are so many better options these days. Folks need to get with the times IMO. #changeisHARD LOL

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I'm still struggling with it. I greatly enjoyed hunting with my 7.62x39 AR15 this year loaded with accubonds, but I really want something more powerful in that package. I'm going back and forth on spending some money on one of the fancy wildcats made for the AR15 or building a lightweight AR10. Hard to get away from years of success with '06 based cartridges in bolt guns.

someguy2800 said:

I'm still struggling with it. I greatly enjoyed hunting with my 7.62x39 AR15 this year loaded with accubonds, but I really want something more powerful in that package. I'm going back and forth on spending some money on one of the fancy wildcats made for the AR15 or building a lightweight AR10. Hard to get away from years of success with '06 based cartridges in bolt guns.

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Hey, I get it. It wasn't until I saw enough pigs and deer dropped where they stood with my 7.62x39, that I finally got on board with the notion. I'm about to get into the 6.5 Grendel game, and can't wait to see what that little round will do on game. I should have plenty of test medium this winter.

My good 'ol 30-30 killed things dead as a hammer for me for a long, long time. But when you do the math, my bolt action 7.62x39 is actually the better of the two in a lot of ways (accuracy and downrange energy, to name two). And it's been proving it in the field for the past 3 seasons.

Newtosavage said:

Hey, I get it. It wasn't until I saw enough pigs and deer dropped where they stood with my 7.62x39, that I finally got on board with the notion. I'm about to get into the 6.5 Grendel game, and can't wait to see what that little round will do on game. I should have plenty of test medium this winter.

My good 'ol 30-30 killed things dead as a hammer for me for a long, long time. But when you do the math, my bolt action 7.62x39 is actually the better of the two in a lot of ways (accuracy and downrange energy, to name two). And it's been proving it in the field for the past 3 seasons.

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I only have a small sample size of 3 deer from this year. So far my impressions are that the 7.62x39 loaded with a 125 accubond and CFE black is giving me the velocity I'm looking for (2600 fps), penetration looks good, exit wounds are decent, but it doesn't quite give the reaction I'm used to from say 25-06, 270, or 30-06. It kills them just as dead but with the higher intensity cartridges when you put one through the boiler room they typically hunch up and usually jump a couple feet in the air. So far with the 7.62x39 I havn't seen much of any reaction, they just run a bit and fall over.

Right now I am looking at a few potential wildcats made for the AR15 that use oversize strengthened bolts. There are two that I would gladly buy, the 270AR, and 30 RAR, but both are discontinued. Olympic arms makes uppers for the WSSM series of cartridges but are spendy. Mad dog weapons makes two really interesting cartridges, 358 yeti, and 30 sabercat. Beyond that I am also looking at building an AR10 in 308 or 338 federal. I might just do both. This deer season was really crappy weather. Temps were in the teens with lots of wind and snowing half the season. My sidecharging AR15 endeared itself to me as a deer rifle this season because of its handy size and weight, controls proved very easy to use with gloves, and they are completely weatherproof. Hard for me to believe as I've been a bolt action and single shot guy my whole life, but I just really like it.

Its weird to hunt with an ar15, but they really do work. My son will probably start off with an ar15 when he starts hunting. The collapsible stock makes it way too easy to set up my rifle for him.

Its weird to hunt with an ar15

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That's where the "old timer" in me draws the line. LOL

Now get off my lawn! ha, ha.

For me the AR15 is what makes these intermediate rounds interesting. If I have to have a bolt action give me my 30-06, 270, 308 ect... every day of the week. No real interest in an intermediate bolt action.

I can see the appeal of these rounds in a small bolt action for youth or other recoil sensitive shooters but recoil is way way down the list of importance for me.

Just picked up my Howa mini 6.5 grendel. Can't wait to get started with it.

Someguy, intermediate bolt actions are so. much. fun.

Admitting to not reading all 6 pages of comments ahead of time. Just wanted to say that my 8 year old daughter loves her 300 blackout AR and was successful in taking a good size 7 point for her first deer this past Sunday. The AR platform is so versatile and can be adjusted to fit very small statutes.

94045 said:

Just had a thought. How about Savage/Federals new .224 Valkyrie?

90 Grain Bullet at 2700 fps thats super sonic to over 1000 yd (at most altitudes) and less half the recoil of a 6.5 CM. I think Savage says it's 4.3 lb out of of one of their MSR15 Rifles.

I would say if you are really trying to reduce recoil, want a heavier bullet than the typical .223 and want it to fit in a Mini-Action it wouldnt be a bad choice. Federals supposed to pricing ammo aggressively also.

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I agree if your state doesn't have a 6mm minimum for deer.

Many years ago deer hunting some kid that came up to my pants pocket had 2 deer take off in front of him--he killed both of them with his win. 94 before his dad could shoot.
Then this little punk says"" gee dad this hunting is so simple we better come up here next year""----we let him live!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!