then you are one unlucky SOB.
Talk to Me About the 9mm AR-15
- Thread starter wanderinwalker
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Me too.
shoobe01
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I have shot a rifle match, from 0 - 300, with a 9 mm carbine. A long time ago because for various reasons it was temporarily the best thing I had. Fun too. Of course, 10 ft drop at 300 yards.
Friend helped me load up some SMG-load rounds for that, and I do not recall the recipe but still have a few... hey, I should put them in the Colt clone sometime. Anyway, absolutely max OAL, 147s, running rather a lot of powder. People in the pits asked what the hell I was shooting as it was going THHWAP! instead of just punching holes.
The drop is an issue, and a powerful pistol is not a rifle, but you can see why the SMG was a deal for a coupla-three decades there in many military forces. Semi-auto not so much, but if you can see splash, you can dump short bursts into vehicles, small groups of men, even single moving targets, pretty effectively. Out to 300 yards, a burst from a good SMG is minute-of-car every time.
Friend helped me load up some SMG-load rounds for that, and I do not recall the recipe but still have a few... hey, I should put them in the Colt clone sometime. Anyway, absolutely max OAL, 147s, running rather a lot of powder. People in the pits asked what the hell I was shooting as it was going THHWAP! instead of just punching holes.
The drop is an issue, and a powerful pistol is not a rifle, but you can see why the SMG was a deal for a coupla-three decades there in many military forces. Semi-auto not so much, but if you can see splash, you can dump short bursts into vehicles, small groups of men, even single moving targets, pretty effectively. Out to 300 yards, a burst from a good SMG is minute-of-car every time.
someguy2800
Member
I was curious so I weighed my braced ar9 pistol I posted on the first page. It’s about 6.1 lbs.
I have also shot my 9MM AR at the steel targets at 300 yards at the range, and yes, plenty of drop, but once you are dialed in it's no trouble.
someguy2800
Member
Are you guys using subsonic 147's shooting at that distance? I usually shoot 124's in mine at about 1300. They are still supersonic at 100 and accuracy is superb, but I've tried mine at 200 yards and you can't hit a thing with it due to the bullet going transonic. Lucky to get 1 out of 10 on a 12" plate.
<*(((><
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I think most are using long loaded 147's for distance shooting so as to stay under supersonic to avoid the transonic turbulence. I don't have personal experience as I haven't shot mine at those distances but that seems to be what most use.
Looks like @shoobe01 has some experience with it, and seems to have found the 147's to work best for himself.
Emphasis added: I added the underline
Looks like @shoobe01 has some experience with it, and seems to have found the 147's to work best for himself.
Emphasis added: I added the underline
Artofgolf
Member
Walkalong, have you tried any "Little Lasers" in your AR @ 300 yards?
I was thinking about some 147gr. HST's with a near-max. VV-3N38 load, as mentioned in their manual ~ any thoughts?
OP
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wanderinwalker
Member
Now this conversation is getting really interesting! 
Let me start by mentioning I've either owned or had several different pistol caliber carbines through my hands over the years. They've all been .357 or .44 Magnum lever action and single-shot rifles though. I'm quite familiar with how much of a velocity boost you can give a 240-grain .429" slug in a 20" Marlin versus a 6" .629. If my memory is good, it was roughly a 400-fps velocity increase. I've never chronographed a set of .357s for comparison, but I imagine similar gains. Oh, and I used to plink steel targets at 200 yards with said Marlin .44 Magnum just because I could. Once you know how much front sight to favor, it isn't a difficult trick at all.
However, I've never had an auto-pistol caliber carbine, but I can see why they wouldn't experience much in the way of gains. There simply isn't enough case capacity to get enough powder to take advantage of the longer barrel lengths.
OK, now to the points about pistol caliber carbine versus a rifle caliber carbine, I have some more thoughts:
1) The PCC isn't a replacement for a full-power rifle. The end. What it does is increase the hit-probability and shootability inside of pistol ranges. While you and I can can hit steel silhouettes from 50 yards with a handgun, most people can't hit anything with a handgun past 15-20 FEET. Remember, this is why the M-1 Carbine was developed.
2) Sometimes a full-power rifle isn't the answer. Steel plates at 5-50 yards are one of those situations. I can't shoot the plates on our family range with 5.56mm and expect them to last very long. But they'll last near indefinitely if subjected to handgun and .22LR power levels.
3) I suspect most people who have a PCC for a long-arm probably have a more powerful long gun available. Just myself, I can put my hands on a 5.56mm carbine, a .30-30, a .308 Winchester or a .30-06 without any trouble.
4) The PCC does have reduced muzzle blast and noise signature compared to a high-pressure bottleneck round. This is important with somebody like perhaps my girlfriend. She's a pretty good shot with a .22LR rifle or pistol, but the extra blast of a centerfire tends to throw her form off. Something in between the .22LR and a 5.56 would be a great step for her to get used to the extra noise.
5) A PCC is cheaper to feed than a full-power rifle. Practice makes proficient.
For the record, I have fired a few true, select-fire sub-guns. An Uzi, an MP-5 and an M1 Thompson. Honestly the 9mms didn't do a whole lot for me at the time. The Thompson was fun, though heavy. To be fair, my favorite select-fire so far was an AR-18 I got to put a magazine through. That got me to consider selling spare organs...
Oddly enough, after all of the reading, thinking and writing, I'm beginning to wonder if maybe an octagon barrel Marlin in .357 Magnum might be kind of fun instead. (Yeah, both is the ultimate solution to this.
Let me start by mentioning I've either owned or had several different pistol caliber carbines through my hands over the years. They've all been .357 or .44 Magnum lever action and single-shot rifles though. I'm quite familiar with how much of a velocity boost you can give a 240-grain .429" slug in a 20" Marlin versus a 6" .629. If my memory is good, it was roughly a 400-fps velocity increase. I've never chronographed a set of .357s for comparison, but I imagine similar gains. Oh, and I used to plink steel targets at 200 yards with said Marlin .44 Magnum just because I could. Once you know how much front sight to favor, it isn't a difficult trick at all.
However, I've never had an auto-pistol caliber carbine, but I can see why they wouldn't experience much in the way of gains. There simply isn't enough case capacity to get enough powder to take advantage of the longer barrel lengths.
OK, now to the points about pistol caliber carbine versus a rifle caliber carbine, I have some more thoughts:
1) The PCC isn't a replacement for a full-power rifle. The end. What it does is increase the hit-probability and shootability inside of pistol ranges. While you and I can can hit steel silhouettes from 50 yards with a handgun, most people can't hit anything with a handgun past 15-20 FEET. Remember, this is why the M-1 Carbine was developed.
2) Sometimes a full-power rifle isn't the answer. Steel plates at 5-50 yards are one of those situations. I can't shoot the plates on our family range with 5.56mm and expect them to last very long. But they'll last near indefinitely if subjected to handgun and .22LR power levels.
3) I suspect most people who have a PCC for a long-arm probably have a more powerful long gun available. Just myself, I can put my hands on a 5.56mm carbine, a .30-30, a .308 Winchester or a .30-06 without any trouble.
4) The PCC does have reduced muzzle blast and noise signature compared to a high-pressure bottleneck round. This is important with somebody like perhaps my girlfriend. She's a pretty good shot with a .22LR rifle or pistol, but the extra blast of a centerfire tends to throw her form off. Something in between the .22LR and a 5.56 would be a great step for her to get used to the extra noise.
5) A PCC is cheaper to feed than a full-power rifle. Practice makes proficient.
For the record, I have fired a few true, select-fire sub-guns. An Uzi, an MP-5 and an M1 Thompson. Honestly the 9mms didn't do a whole lot for me at the time. The Thompson was fun, though heavy. To be fair, my favorite select-fire so far was an AR-18 I got to put a magazine through. That got me to consider selling spare organs...
Oddly enough, after all of the reading, thinking and writing, I'm beginning to wonder if maybe an octagon barrel Marlin in .357 Magnum might be kind of fun instead. (Yeah, both is the ultimate solution to this.
I am shooting 124s at anywhere from 1050ish (My N320 plinker load doesn't give any more from a 16" barrel than it does from 5" one) to 124s at around 1300 FPS from my AR.
Naturally the faster they go the easier it is to judge drop, but with consistent ES numbers it isn't hard at slower velocities.
someguy2800
Member
The steel plate thing is a great point. My home range has a dozen swinger plates mounted between 10 and 100 yards for pistol practice and they are not hard enough for rifle rounds. That’s most of the reason I did the 9mm carbine in the first place. That along with being able to crank cheap ammo for it on the progressive. Loading 223 in mass is much more involved and 3 times as expensive.
You know, I sure haven't.
oldrevolverguy
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I love my Diamondback AR9. It runs like a top with Glock mags. I put Magpul furniture on it (like my other ARs), mounted a Weaver 1X3 scope on it and it is an awesome training/fun tool. Between my three AR pattern guns, a DPMS AP4 7.62, Bushmaster M4 5.56 and the Diamondback AR9; the AR9 gets the most trigger time. My friends fight over who gets to shoot it next. YMMV
Good Ol' Boy
Member
When I eventually pull the trigger on a AR9 it will be a KG.
I have spoken with them a couple of times. Well built, good reviews, lifetime warranty and priced much more reasonably.
https://karrisguns.com/ar9-rifle.aspx
I have spoken with them a couple of times. Well built, good reviews, lifetime warranty and priced much more reasonably.
https://karrisguns.com/ar9-rifle.aspx
All your points are solid, I just think the comment that PCC's just "increase hit probability and shootability inside of pistol ranges" doesn't reflect on the experiences of many who I know have run them. Even the pseudo-SBR pistols being used with much shorter barrels and sight radius (although almost all run some form of RDS optic), actually stretch their potential from 50 to 100 meters. I find I can run a course with a PCC/pistol and I'm far more accurate, faster on target with extremely more efficient with follow-up shots than I could every imagine with a handgun...there's really no comparison. I've stretched traditional 16" barrel PCC's out to 150 meters, which for me is the maximum distance I'm comfortable with; however, most dynamic range training is inside 100 meters, which I think is perfectly suitable for PCCs.
For me, these stretch your pistol range from 50-100 meters, while increasing hit probability, accuracy, and rapidly getting more rounds on target much faster. Having borrowed/run and seen the MP7 and the CZ Scorpion SMG's used on the range here in Afghanistan, I see zero comparison of something this size with a handgun, especially when engaging multiple targets while moving with ranges out to 100 meters (didn't even use full-auto; single shots or controlled pairs). I will eventual SBR a few of my PCCs simply due to size efficiency and performance inside that 100 meter range. Agreed that they are not a replacement for a rifle caliber carbine/rifle, nor are they a replacement for CCW. Very much a niche firearm, but they fill that niche extremely well.
ROCK6
someguy2800
Member
I would say they extend the range of a pistol from about 20 to 100 yards. Most people can't hit a damn thing with a pistol past about 10.
thomas15
Member
As another poster mentioned there are many shooters in USPSA and SCSA switching to or adding PCC to their stable. Personally I want one but I'm trying my best to keep the urge at bay, mainly because I have I have enough variety of guns to use in those venues for the time being. In SCSA, where I spend most of my competition time, it seems everyone is shooting a 9mm PCC.
Several times though I have come very close to getting one, I'm prolly going to buckle from the pressure and get one, most likely the Palmetto State Armory shooting device. My Rimfire Challenge/Steel Challenge open rimfire rifle is a S&W M&P AR-15-22. The Palmetto State AR-9 is a close match to that rifle, I think the OP trending towards something that resembles his present AR 15 is a good idea.
One of the things that I don't care for on the Palmetto State Armory AR-9s is they don't hold the bolt open on the last round and they have proprietary barrels and so forth. Neither one of these are show stoppers for me but in an ideal world....
It really comes down to time and money. I don't have the time to shoot another division right now, I have guns for other divisions ready to go that I don't have time for. As far as money is concerned when I finally get a PCC and it's not a question of "if" rather it's "when", I will get one that uses Glock Magazines which I have in abundance, but I will want a fairly good red dot sight to go with it. So I'm looking at about a $1000.00 so will wait.
Several times though I have come very close to getting one, I'm prolly going to buckle from the pressure and get one, most likely the Palmetto State Armory shooting device. My Rimfire Challenge/Steel Challenge open rimfire rifle is a S&W M&P AR-15-22. The Palmetto State AR-9 is a close match to that rifle, I think the OP trending towards something that resembles his present AR 15 is a good idea.
One of the things that I don't care for on the Palmetto State Armory AR-9s is they don't hold the bolt open on the last round and they have proprietary barrels and so forth. Neither one of these are show stoppers for me but in an ideal world....
It really comes down to time and money. I don't have the time to shoot another division right now, I have guns for other divisions ready to go that I don't have time for. As far as money is concerned when I finally get a PCC and it's not a question of "if" rather it's "when", I will get one that uses Glock Magazines which I have in abundance, but I will want a fairly good red dot sight to go with it. So I'm looking at about a $1000.00 so will wait.
That is true for many shooters, not all, but many.
OP
OP
wanderinwalker
Member
Funny, I was thinking about this this morning and this line of reasoning was exactly where I was. I can hit a 4" plate with a handgun at 25 yards regularly enough to feel confident. Take the same shot with a rifle (a scoped .22 on the ranges I use) and it becomes a game of how many times I can hit the plate while it's swinging after the first shot.
ROCK6, thank you for your input. What you describe seems to me to validate the fact that a shoulder fired arm is far superior to handgun.
As for firearm choice, right now I'm leaning toward the CZ Scorpion carbine with the muzzle brake. A different manual of arms doesn't concern me much, given the assortment of action types I already have. And I'm not wedded to any pre-existing magazine inventory either.
Madcap_Magician
Member
Definitely this. I think pretty much any shooter of any skill level will hit more easily from 20-50 yards with a PCC than a pistol, even if the shooter's pistol skill is sufficient to be accurate and fast from distances measured in yards rather than feet.
Also gosh, I really want an SBR'd MPX or Colt 9mm.
someguy2800
Member
A person can shoot a pistol darn well with enough practice and concentration, heck just look at the groups competitive bullseye shooters shoot. They shoot better at 50 yards with custom 1911’s than most people can do offhand with a rifle.
But that’s under controlled and unstressed condition. Once you add movement and stress (a timer or someone shooting back) that all goes out the window. I shoot a local action pistol league in the winter and typically place up toward the top, but if you make me shoot while running or moving to cover I’d bet you I could shoot a carbine from the hip nearly as well as a pistol. If I get to shoulder it and use the sights it’s not even going to be a comparison.
But that’s under controlled and unstressed condition. Once you add movement and stress (a timer or someone shooting back) that all goes out the window. I shoot a local action pistol league in the winter and typically place up toward the top, but if you make me shoot while running or moving to cover I’d bet you I could shoot a carbine from the hip nearly as well as a pistol. If I get to shoulder it and use the sights it’s not even going to be a comparison.
As PCC has become popular in USPSA, it has been very interesting to watch how even fairly proficient pistol shooters will "sweat" something like a 30 yard minipopper, clearly miming a settled sight picture and straight-back trigger press during their walk-through, while for PCC shooters, it's just another thing to shoot fast. They take a lot of shots from the "I can make the shot, but I don't know for sure that I will when I'm on the clock" category to the "yeah, I'm gonna make that shot unless I totally lose focus" bucket.
shoobe01
Member
SMG specific 9mm ammo is weird and full of rumor. What I know is that Hirtenberger made, for the UK MoD, L7A1 and L12A1, both running around 50,000 PSI, and firing an 8g (124gr) ball round at about 450 m/s (~1500 fps) at the muzzle. So yes, all mil ammo is the 124, even out of SMGs.
I do not recall anything about my 147 loads except the length and weight. I thought they were also pretty packed with powder, so were going real fast. Maybe we were dumb about transsonic stability back then? If I remember, sometime, I may fire a few and if I can get the magnetospeed onto the little 9mm, chrono them to see what's up.
I do not recall anything about my 147 loads except the length and weight. I thought they were also pretty packed with powder, so were going real fast. Maybe we were dumb about transsonic stability back then? If I remember, sometime, I may fire a few and if I can get the magnetospeed onto the little 9mm, chrono them to see what's up.
<*(((><
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A very good option for you, that CZ Scorpion. If you don't already have Glock or Colt mags, then the CZ makes a lot of sense. I chose to assemble an AR9 because I love the ability to source my own parts, and get to know the firearm as I assemble it, and be able to service it in the future with readily available parts.
But if'n I didn't have Glock mags and enjoy the AR platform it would have been at the top of my list.
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