Talk to Me About the 9mm AR-15

[Chuck R.]

All of these are too heavy for a 9mm carbine. The TNW is 5.5 lbs. ambi eject, uses Glock mags and only requires a barrel/bolt head exchange for a different cartridge.

I suppose if you have to have a 9mm AR then you should have one but there are more versatile options out there.



No stake in the fight, I don't own either one.

Not really the point I was making. The poster I quoted stated that he didn't like his AR pattern cause it was heavier than either his PCC or Camp Carbine......which IAW spec sheets is a little "off".

 

[CoalTrain49]

You're right.
I guess it's just my state where they are rare because we have the awb still in effect and anything over 10 rounds must be pre ban and they are big $$$.

Just banned AR15 rifles last year.....wonder if a 9mm pistol caliber AR15 would still be legal?

I think it's illegal according to this. No mention of cartridge or caliber. I think a TNW would also be illegal.

A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any two of the following:

• A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
• A folding or telescoping stock.
• A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
• A flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor;
• A bayonet lug

 

[CoalTrain49]

Not really the point I was making. The poster I quoted stated that he didn't like his AR pattern cause it was heavier than either his PCC or Camp Carbine......which IAW spec sheets is a little "off".

His point. AR-15 9mm heavier than.....
Your point. AR-15 weighs the same, invalid comparison
My point. They are all heavier than a TNW.

 

[rbernie]

If you run an AR in the field or for defensive purposes, having a 9 mm AR makes a lot of sense – it keeps everything consistent and allows you to train with the weapon that you hunt or fight with.

 

[Elkins45]

His point. AR-15 9mm heavier than.....
Your point. AR-15 weighs the same, invalid comparison
My point. They are all heavier than a TNW.

Actually I just said heavier but I should have said heavier and more clumsy. I had to add an extra heavy buffer to get mine to work OK. Between the thick barrel and the giant lead rod in the stock I figure mine probably weight almost eight pounds. My GWACS AR in 223 fires a full power cartridge and comes in comfortably under six pounds with a pencil barrel. It makes me think there's no reason for a 9mm AR when I can have one chambered for a more powerful round that actually weighs less.

I'm not a guy who really needs a pistol grip on a rifle, although the folding stock on my Camp Carbine has one. Of all my 9mm guns the Ruger seems like the best handling one, probably because it has a conventional stock.

I'm not convinced that a pistol grip is a needed feature on a rifle, just like I don't understand when I see pictures of guys who add vertical hand grips to their ARs.

 

[straightshooterjake]

You're right.
I guess it's just my state where they are rare because we have the awb still in effect and anything over 10 rounds must be pre ban and they are big $$$.

Just banned AR15 rifles last year.....wonder if a 9mm pistol caliber AR15 would still be legal?

I don't want to go off topic in this thread with details about Massachusetts restrictions, but I will offer a couple of points. First, for accurate info about Massachusetts regulations, look for the Mass/Northeast firearms forum. Every detail of this issue has been discussed at length.

Second, I'll cover one small bit about the Massachusetts rules. The Mass definition of an AR rifle is not based on looks, but rather on mechanical similarity. By this thinking, a rifle with a blowback action is not similar to an AR. For more details, look for Massachusetts specific resources, and prepare to get a headache.

 

[wanderinwalker]

Thanks again for the responses so far.

To mrmike7189, I understand the issues with being 10 miles south of me. Big difference in what's legal when you cross the state line. Also, there's a big difference in how much stuff costs.

As for the rest, I had forgotten about the CZ Scorpion. Those look like they might be a good option as well. It looks like spare magazines are fairly inexpensive, and I noticed nobody mentioned needing a MagLULA for them like I've seen suggested for the Colt-pattern mags. I also like how the CZ has a true folding stock.

Now to the weight of a rifle versus the cartridges being fired, let me mention I once had a 20" barreled, 6-pound .45-70 carbine. After that experience I decided I'm OK with a rifle that weighs "a little more than necessary".

 

[Chuck R.]

If you run an AR in the field or for defensive purposes, having a 9 mm AR makes a lot of sense – it keeps everything consistent and allows you to train with the weapon that you hunt or fight with.

This is my primary reason for sticking with the AR:

HD gun:



Trainer:



Both are set up the same, optic, trigger, WML. The 9mm actually recoils more, so I have to hold harder and adjust my pace. My Dillon 650 makes loading 9mm a breeze and the little 9mm doesn't screw up my AR500 targets at CQB distances. I also get to shoot the 9mm in IDPA matches, so every match is like a little HD practice session.

 

[carbine85]

I stayed with the AR platform. I used a Faxon barrel, RRA 2 stage trigger, carbon fiber hand guard and Magpul fixed stock. It's light weight and reliable. I like the idea of being able to change it around as I want.

 

[shoobe01]

My 9mm upper and many others work great. No buffer changes even (well, from my 10.5" .300 or my 12.5" 5.56 at least).

Not following any of the weight discussions. 6.5# is heavy? And, I want mine to be similar to the 5.56 so why would I want to sacrifice similarity for a few oz?

I am a sorta c-grip type, but vertical foregrips help "drive the gun," or move it quickly between different angles, to engage multiple targets efficiently and quickly. I am sure some folks have it because it looks cool, but using a VFG properly is a very valid technique.

 

[someguy2800]

My 9mm upper and many others work great. No buffer changes even (well, from my 10.5" .300 or my 12.5" 5.56 at least).

Not following any of the weight discussions. 6.5# is heavy? And, I want mine to be similar to the 5.56 so why would I want to sacrifice similarity for a few oz?

I am a sorta c-grip type, but vertical foregrips help "drive the gun," or move it quickly between different angles, to engage multiple targets efficiently and quickly. I am sure some folks have it because it looks cool, but using a VFG properly is a very valid technique.

The cycling on mine was downright violent when I put mine together. The kak brace would bruise my shoulder (I know it sounds crazy but it’s true), and it would throw brass 20 feet. I think the buffer is 9 ounces. NFA sells a rubber buffer tube bumper which I got as well as an extra power AR10 buffer spring. It’s a pussycat now.

I am a sorta c-grip type, but vertical foregrips help "drive the gun," or move it quickly between different angles, to engage multiple targets efficiently and quickly. I am sure some folks have it because it looks cool, but using a VFG properly is a very valid technique.

I don’t do any tactical exorcises or training, but I’ve found when hunting or tracking when I’m going through thick brush and need to be at the ready I like to grab my left hand around the end of my sling and use my hand to tension the forend firmly down onto the top of my hand. So essentially I’m using my sling as a makeshift vertical foregrip. I didn’t even realize I was doing it for awhile.

Sling attachment point for reference.

 

[ponchh]

Thanks all for the input so far. Some interesting points to think about. Especially regarding the possibility of having a short-throated chamber. Though I've run into that with 9mm in pistols in the past.

Thanks all for the input so far. Some interesting points to think about. Especially regarding the possibility of having a short-throated chamber. Though I've run into that with 9mm in pistols in the past.

For the record, it will be a Colt if I go with a 9mm AR. My 5.56 AR is a Colt 6920 and I have a pair of Colt Government Models (one in .45 ACP, one in .38 Super). From what I've seen of the Marlin Camp Carbines, they do not hold up to heavy usage. I haven't really checked out the new Rugers yet, but I'm not a big Ruger fan in general. I've handled a couple of Just Right Carbines and frankly only felt "Meh."

I am considering the new Marlin 1894s as an option as well. Having a .357 revolver, a .38 revolver and a pile of brass, bullets and loaded ammo makes it a shoe-in. And I've held one of these in person and was quite impressed by it: https://www.marlinfirearms.com/lever-action/model-1894/model-1894-csbl

Edited: To echo rbernie's point, I dislike all of the heavy barrel, HBAR and other profile AR-15s out there. They're too nose heavy compared to even a government profile A2 barrel. And nothing like the old pencil barrel SP-1s and A1s.

When I said some barrels have short throat, I'm talking about so short that bullets like Hap, XTP, or berries flat nose target are an absolute no go. To pass a plunk test the bullet shoulder is below the top of the brass. Any round nose seems OK, flat nose not so much.
As for myself, if it won't chamber flat nose it's scrap iron

 

[jmorris]

I have a couple my first was a model1sales “kit” that I put on an extra lower I had. Ran great from the start, I later cut the barrel down and made a permanently attached suppressor, so it only required me stamp. One of my favorite ones still.

I have had a Marlin Camp 9 since theycame out (3 digit ser#) alway been a fun little rifle too and a friend of mines favorite.

Hard to go wrong with lever pistol caliber carbines either. One in 38/357 or 44 mag, even 45 Colt can really take advantage of the greater powder capacity.

That said, I have a couple SA-22’s so I couldn’t fault that choice either.

I guess if a budget is a concern, there are other brands that cost less and run just as well as a Colt will.

 

[ATLDave]

In case you were not aware, PCC's have recently become extremely popular in the "practical" shooting games, especially USPSA. There is a huge amount of innovation and feedback happening now in that space... just huge. There's all kinds of information available from that arena about what, specifically, works, what breaks, what is accurate, what handles well, etc. Even if you have zero interest in ever shooting in competition, you could easily learn a lot by paying attention to what is being done in that area to make AR-9's shoot as well as possible.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Cheaper to build on that buy a Colt, however the Colt will likely run trouble free. Building one on your own, 9mm AR's are finicky. They kick harder than they should.

ASC, C prodcucts make good cheap mags.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Fun as a rifle, I am doing another as a pistol. Pistol build gives you a shorter barrel, you aren't shooting these past 100 yards much anyway.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Fun as a rifle, I am doing another as a pistol. Pistol build gives you a shorter barrel, you aren't shooting these past 100 yards much anyway.

I agree. What barrel length are you going to use?

HD doesn't strike me as a reason for a PCC. That doesn't mean they aren't fun and cheap to shoot like a 22 rimfire, I get that.

I had a PCC and sold it. 100 yd accuracy was dismal and energy past 50 yards just wasn't there. What pistol cartridge is going to give you the effective energy and accuracy needed at 100 yards that most rifle cartridges will give you? 9mm bullet trajectory is -12" at 100 yards and 250 fp is down right anemic.

I realize that a rifle cartridge is overkill at 5-50 yards and sometimes penetration can be a problem but that shouldn't exclude it from HD. Who knows when you're going to have a need for a carbine in a 100-200 yard HD situation. Everyone needs a carbine. I have one, but most will need the 5-50 yard solution 99% of the time for HD.

I like the idea of a 9mm pistol in a HD situation in whatever configuration you like but a barrel over 10" doesn't make a lot of sense for 9mm.

I agree with this article 100%

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog...l-caliber-carbines-dont-make-lot-sense-heres/

 

[mrmike7189]

A 9MM out of 16 inch barrell carbine is pushing more than 1400fps and 400 foot pnds energy .
That puts it in 357 magnum territory which is nothing to laugh at.
And I shoot 9mm out to 100 yards all the time without any problems hitting a target.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Probably do 10 inch pistol for the next one. Already have mags and a brace picked out.

 

[CoalTrain49]

A 9MM out of 16 inch barrell carbine is pushing more than 1400fps and 400 foot pnds energy .
That puts it in 357 magnum territory which is nothing to laugh at.
And I shoot 9mm out to 100 yards all the time without any problems hitting a target.

I shoot and load both. I had a 357 carbine and loaded 158 to 1600 fps (18" barrel). You're going to have to stomp real hard on 147 9mm to get it to 1200 fps even with a 16" barrel. Not recommended. There is no appreciable difference in 9mm MV between a 10" barrel and a 16" barrel, less than 100 fps. Not much advantage there especially past 50 yards.

It ain't no 357.

 

[PapaG]

A friend had one at the range Saturday. Made as such, compact, and with some neat sights. I could get the urge. He said it is surprisingly accurate with ftx bullets even to 100 yards. Gonna have to ask the make.

 

[ATLDave]

Because the compact case of the 9mm limits powder, and, therefore, gas volume to a pretty small amount, long barrels don't benefit them as much as cartridges with a bigger boiler room. Note that in these charts, most of the velocity gains flatten out after 8" or 10" of barrel. http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html

That said, with the right load, you can get 9mm +P out of a carbine to closely approximate lighter-bullet weight .357 loadings out of a 6" revolver. And the latter are almost universally acknowledge to be highly effective, as handgun rounds go, in terms of being a "fight stopper."

 

[someguy2800]

My AR9 with a 10.5" faxon barrel shoots 2-1/2" groups at 100 yards with a scope on it. I agree that a 9mm carbine is not nearly as powerful as a 223 rifle, but they are hardly anemic either. 12" of drop at 100 is BS. With a 50 yard zero mine is 4" low at 100. Velocity at 100 is about the same as my 9mm handguns at the muzzle. My AR9 is just a plinker so this is of little importance to me, but I have taken it camping.

A 357 magnum carbine though would be even more powerful than a 223 at self defense ranges, but not semi auto.

 

[CoalTrain49]

deleted

 

[CoalTrain49]

12" of drop at 100 is BS.

OK, it's more like 7'' I was wrong.

It's pretty similar to shooting a 22 LR at 100 yards. I don't see many people doing that at the range, mostly because it isn't practical.

My point is if you need to shoot accurately at 100 yards for SD a 9mm might not be your best choice.

By the way I can ring 18" steel at 200 yards with my 455 but it's more of a stunt than anything else.