45 ACP Reloading Issues

RCBS has different seating stems for different bullets. Like the ones on the left.



They have different contact with different bullets.

The shaving is likely from the bullet not being seated parallel to the case. Even with coated lead I can get by with very little bell/flare without shaving if I seat correctly.

As far as crim goes, once you have a loaded round, pull a bullet. If you swaged it down with the crimp operation, you are crimping too much. Brass can “spring back”, lead, not so much. Over crimping, without any cannelure, will only cause the bullet to be more likely to move around

Sounds like an alignment problem to me...check to make sure the shell holder is fully seated into the ram. I've had a small chip in the seat push my holder out just a bit causing the case to get shaved like you described

ArchAngelCD said:

In my post I did say ball ammo, not HP but the concept is the same even though the numbers will vary.


That is incorrect, with semi-auto ammo the crimp is not meant to hold the bullet in place, it's only to iron out the flair. Excessive crimp can deform the bullet and effect accuracy. Neck tension should hold the bullet.

The more you tell us the more I am starting to believe all your dies are not properly adjusted. It now sounds like you are not resizing the case properly and have inadequate tension. Same thing with the crimp die, not adjusted correctly.

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I agree. Also, OP mentions that it had been years since he last loaded .45, therefore I would also recommend OP clean his dies first, then reinstall and adjust them per Lee's instructions. You never know if there is some rust or greasy dust built up in the dies.

You could have something built up inside the shell holder groove that is causing alignment problems---or the shell holder to ram. You could also have buildup inside the seating die. It is a possibility that your dies or shell holder were defective from the get go as well. I would try cleaning things well and then the FMJ bullets and see if those load OK before I trashed the dies though. I use a set of Lee 45 ACP dies with no problems and have for 30+ years. I do not use the FCD though as I seat and taper crimp in one step. FWIW the FCD does not play well with plain lead bullets so I just leave it out of the process.

slowr1der said:

So, Xtreme lists the bullets as .452, but when measuring 3 that I picked out randomly I am getting .451, so they don't seem to be oversized.


I am trying to seat them to an OAL of 1.2".

What's the best way to measure the expander since it's inside of the die?

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You have to disassemble the die.

slowr1der said:

What's the best way to measure the Expander since it's inside of the die?

Click to expand...

Mr Rider -
The best way is to disassemble the Powder Die and measure the bare Expander using a caliper. If disassembly means removing the die body from the press, then you'll need to do the Initital Setting for the belling all over again.

slowr1der said:

Lee's instructions are to screw the expander in until it touches the shell holder and then back it off 1 full turn. Then turn it in for more flair. So I stared with it backed off 1 turn, then turned it in to only being 3/4th of a turn out then to 1/2 turn, etc.

Click to expand...

Those instructions are for the very first installation or Initial Setting. Once you've tried that setting, then Step No.2 is to simply move the die downward to increase the belling, or upward to decrease the belling.

Take a Sharpie marker and put a small mark on the die's body to give you a reference point. Then loosen the die and turn it downward (toward the shellplate) in 1/8 turn increments until your belling increases and your shavings stop. So you'll turn it down, and flare a few sized cases. If that doesn't do the job, them to turn the die down another 1/8 turn and flare some more sized cases. Repeat this second instruction until you achieve the setting you desire.

This second step can be fairly tedious. It may take you 30 minutes using fresh cases for every test. But once set, the die will probably never need adjusting again.

After depriming and resizing the case, prime it, charge it with powder, then use the Lee powder through expansion die to flare the mouth of the case. This die should be part of your Lee 3 or 4 die set. Just put enough of a flare so that the bullet can stand up in the case without you having to hold it upright. If it tilts, you haven't flared deep enough. Do not over flare. Once the bullet is seated to the proper depth, you can run it through the Lee FCD without the crimp stem screwed in. The carbide ring ought to remove the flare so that you now have a completely straight case wall. If you want to put a light taper crimp in, you can adjust the stem down to where it just makes contact and then screw it in a little at a time until you have the case mouth pointed barely inward checking your crimp, turning the stem in 1/8th turn and checking again.

Never overcrimp on a case that headspaces on the case mouth (45ACP included) and don't over crimp a bullet that doesn't have a cannelure (Xtreme plated bullet is an example).

WOW:
Well, here goes, you got a bunch of things going on. Might as well start with oal's. I'm sure you're aware of the "plunk test" & using your bbl to establish an oal for a bullet/bbl/firearm combo.

What you are going to find is that there will be a little of the bullets body sticking above the rim of your 45acp reloads. Typical h&g #68's that countless 1000's of target shooters have loaded billions of these over the decades. 1.250" oal with a .469"/.470" taper crimp using a .452" bullet.

What you will find is that the bullet really doesn't matter, that you will have the same amount of bullet body sticking above the case. A picture of 3 different styles/types of bullets for the 45acp.

If you look at the 2nd jacketed bullet that's laying down you will see that it has a haze to it. The coated bullets you can clearly see the bullets shoulder/where the body of the bullet ends. The haze got on that bullet by rolling it on a bar of soap. Take a mic of calipers and start measuring by where that haze ends. You're looking for where the bullets body (.451"/.452"/.453"/etc) ends. Once you've found the shoulder of the bullet, put a line there. This helps in establishing the oal of your bullet/bbl combo.

To target a oal without doing this is foolish. 20 different bullet mfg's use 20 different bullet profiles for the rn bullets.

Pictures are worth a 1000 words. If you look at those h&g reloads pictured above you don't see any bullet bulge, bullet base showing in the case, no wasp waist, etc. If you look close you will see a shinny 1/32" line at the case mouth. That's a +/- 3/1000th's taper crimp.

The worst problem/issue you have is your choice of die sets. Not picking on lee dies, I use them myself to reload the 45acp's. The lee's typically over size the brass making it smaller than needed. Take and measure some fired brass and re-measure it after it's been sized in a lee die. I opened my lee sizing die up a little, don't need my cases that small. The next thing to keep in mind is now that you have an extremely small in diameter case, you're trying to stuff a bullet into it. Your bullet of choice is on the soft side, hence the marks on the nose & swaging of the bullet bodies. You can adjust and re-adjust that lee expander die until the cows come how and still find no love. Lee dies are made for jacketed bullets and typically jacketed bullets have short bullet body's (don't seat deep in the cases). And are smaller in diameter than their cast/coated/plated counterparts. The jackets are also tougher and can take more abuse when being stomped into the under expanded cases. 2 things count with expanders, the right diameter for the bullet. The right depth to protect the bullets base.


A lee factory expander next to a lyman m-die. Note the "ring" in the middle of the lee's expander nose. That was left there from expanding 45acp brass. That's all the further the lee goes into the cases without excessively expanding/flaring the case mouth too much.

The lyman m-die on the other hand more than doubles the depth it goes into the cases expanding the cases deeper. It also has a step that aids in starting the bullet strait in the case when seating them. The longer expander also aids in keeping the bullet strait during seats. Things under pressure go to the least point of resistance or fail under pressure.

Use the correct expander and 90%+ of your problems will be a thing of the past.

To crimp or not to crimp? Myself I don't use the lee fcd dies & I crimp everything. Is the crimp in a 45acp there to hold the bullet in place??? Absolutely not!!! It is nothing more than an aid to several other pieces of the puzzle. A taper crimp will aid in holding a bullet in place. A taper crimp will also aid in feeding and the consistency/accuracy of ammo.

Doesn't matter to me is you use or believe any of these things or not. Use what you thinks best.

Those h&g 68's in the post above, 10-shot groups @ 50ft. 1.250" oal,.469"/.470" taper crimp, .452" bullet


9mm expanders lee vs custom I made for my cast/coated bullets


The custom expander pictured above expanded these 9mm cases to use .358" bullets. No bulge, bullet base showing, wasp waist, swaging of the bullet along with +/-.3/1000th's taper crimp

10-shot group @ 50ft with the green bullets.

10-shot group @ 50yds with the red bullets


None of those targets are hand picked/cherry picked by any means. Nothing more then the actual test targets used to tests loads that day.

Anyway, establish your oal. Use the correct expander for the diameter & length & composition of the bullet. Seat the bullets strait & crimp.

Here's what works for me............

If you don't like the mark your seating die stem is leaving on the nose of your bullet, make an aluminum foil ball the size of a pea and put it inside your seating die. Back the seating stem out a few turns and then take a good cartridge (one that you know the bullet has been seated correctly and isn't canted in the case) and run up into the die. The foil will smash down to the shape of the bullet nose and the seating stem face. You'll have to turn the seating stem in a little bit at a time until the foil will no longer smash down but stop before you start pushing the bullet deeper into the case of this known good cartridge. The foil fills in the gap between the seating stem face and the bullet profile and will keep the bullets from getting their noses smashed and from canting when you are seating them. You'll have to make some small adjustments to the seating stem once you start to get the OAL you want but after that you're good to go with that particular bullet profile. The foil ball will stay in the seating die until you decide to remove it.

Want to try a different bullet profile? Just make another foil ball, remove the old one and repeat the process.

It's been my experience that accuracy issues with plated bullets mostly come from people OVER CRIMPING and deforming the base of the plated bullet. I can't tell you the number of times I've seen this at the range when guys complain about accuracy problems with plated bullets. I'll take one of their rounds and pull the bullet and then you can see how much they've smashed the base of the bullet with too much crimp. As a general rule, IIRC, you want to take the measured bullet diameter + the measured case wall thickness x2 and subtract .004. This is a general starting point for a taper crimp and you'll need to figure out if you need more or less crimp from here.

It took the following measurements from a Berry's 230gr plated .45ACP bullet and a R-P case.

Measured bullet dia --------------------------.452
Measured case wall at the mouth x2 ----.020
Equals --------------------------------------------.472
Subtract .004 -----------------------------------.468

This is the general starting point for a taper crimp. Pull a bullet and measure it. If there is too much deformation and you're having accuracy issues, then make your crimp less.

I crimp just enough to take the flare out of the case mouth but stop before it starts deforming the bullet.

I saved this in my watched threads folder and printed out a copy which resides in my reloading book, post #5 and #7 is the relevant info on how much crimp to measure for and how to do it. Never failed me yet.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/45-acp-crimping-question.740694/#post-9297781

Perhaps before everyone starts worrying about crimps they could help the op get the bullet in the case strait. And more importantly stop deforming the nose and the bases of the bullets while trying to do so.

The real issue here is the amount of resizing the sizing die does when resizing the case coupled with the depth of expansion of the expander. Ideally you want 3/1000th's case neck tension. Anyone with a set of mics or calipers can easily figure it out.
Size a couple of cases and mark where the base of the bullet will be when fully seated.
Measure the case diameter where you marked where the bullet base will sit.
Run the measured case up in the lee expander, make sure you over flare/too much flare the case mouth.
Measure again the diameter of the case where the mark is on the case where the bullet's base will sit.
Seat the bullet like you normally would and then re-measure the case diameter at the base of the bullet.

What you are looking for is the difference in diameter between the sized case and the flared case at the mark/bullets base mark. If there is no difference then your expander is not long enough.
Then look at the difference in diameter between the flared case and the case with the bullet seated in it. This is telling you how much the bullet has to expand the case to be seated. Or the more the bullet has to expand the case to be seated, the more pressure it take/higher pressure on the bullet. This higher pressure exerted on the bullet, the worse it is. Make no mistake about it,every bullet including jacketed bullets will show signs of excessive force being used when seated.

While some may certainly disagree, am in habit of squaring dies to the shell holder. Cheap and easy to try to see if it helps. Am using a fired case to square the sizing die using a sized case, and flat washers to square the seating die. The first time i used a carbide 45 acp die, discovered the sizing ring was offset sightly. Course only discovered it after resizing first 500 cases. Cheap and easy to try.

Perhaps the op could post a picture. It's a lot easier to look at something & get an idea of what's going on. Last year I was at a local gun club and a new reloader was trying out a new batch of reloads. He was struggling pretty bad, kept getting jambs and was having to hit the slide home on a I have no idea (sa dx/m&p/???), never really looked or asked. After multiple jambs he picked everything up and put it away. He came over and talked briefly and asked if I saw what was happening. I told him yes and asked if he was using the right bullet. OOO Boy, wrong question, didn't go over well.

I know the op verified the bullet diameter, I'm not saying/implying anything of the sort. All's I'm saying is a picture might not be a bad thing. After the guy left I went over and picked up a couple rounds he left laying on the ground. This is what they looked like.


Looking at the reloads I noticed the hp looked weird, too compressed/rounded. I also noticed I could see the bullet's bases in the cases. What I did find odd was the ring above the bullet base ring in the reloads. Typically that's put there from using lee fcd's..The fcd's will leave a wear line on the case when that case is reloaded enough with oversized bullets.

That led me to break out the mic, sure enough he was using .454" bullets (45lc) and putting them in a 45acp case. Typically a mic is not supposed to be that tight on anything it is measuring. The mic is reading .4725" while being tight enough to hold the reload up in the air. Typical measurements should be .471"/.472" max and using a lee fcd should bring it down to .470"/.471" max. Those reloads weren't ran thru a lee fcd die, the only thing I can think of is that the cases are range pickups to get those fcd rings on them.
The 4 cases:
fc 96 (pictured being held in the air above) .473"
r-p .4735"
Winchester .4725"
wcc 94 .4725"

All of those reloads in the picture have a +/- 1/1000th's crimp

Pictures are always a good thing

What brass are you using? May as well eliminate some variables.

How are you cleaning your brass and what brass are you using . What made seating very smooth is I switched to the Lyman Expander M Die , holds the bullet just right . Went also with the Hornady sleeved seating die and finish with the Lee Taper FCD . I wet tumble , seating is very smooth anyway , if your not maybe something to look into .