If Ca bans assault weapons, consider a lever action as an alternative

While you guys are spending all your rounds of ammo in the neighborhood, I'll be on my way to less populated territory.

May the best trapper win.

LOL

All this yada yada , Yup if it comes to that I want a fighting fire arm to take what ever the guys who take mine have. Also we need to defend our selves from the onslaught being unarmed sheep surrounded by foreign law scoffing invaders. Sooo the truth of the matter (and I have every thing all tho I have moved almost all my legally pre ban registered assault type weapons out of California last year) is the following::
Home defense is best accomplished by a shotgun , no doubt whatsoever about that if you can't have an SBR, which we can't in Ca.. So get trained on a pump or legal semi and have it ready with at least 250 rounds of defensive ammo.
Then the rifle with available ammo (California is gonna require licensing to buy ammo this June- hint !) with an few dependable detachable 10 round mags in a short , accurate reliable bolt gun is certainly the way to go for resistance or gun battles in survival modes. Col Cooper in his Scout Rifle training codified that IMHO around 1980 and I have seen nothing change since then except the perfection of the ACICs mag system and very good commercially available Platforms for it. I could live with a high end Ruger American (love that name ! ) .308 with the good Acic mag system in a good stock , the newest ones are good enough on the premium models . Or a .223 one . Or a Savage with detachable mags. The detachable mags are a great advantage and 10 rounds is quite enough for a bolt gun. Bolt guns are much easier to load then a lever gun and their superior cam type primary extraction is far superior . The triggers are better, they have less mechanical parts to fail and a good operator can keep up sustained accurate fire with any thing . The ability of a skilled operator to out range an enemy with a AR carbine might be a big plus , as the good Col. envisioned way back then for the resistance fight that may occur as this is NOT Merry old or Australia ect.
A good 12 ga "defense" shotgun , a good hunting weight bolt action rifle with a good conventional optic in .223 or .308 and sighted in up to 400+ yards and a reliable hard hitting pistol you are good with with plenty of ammo for each will see you thru with training and luck and an unstoppable will .
Sure a good lever gun will work for a problem if that is all you got. But I would be using it to fight my way to get something better .
I have my 870 in it's 3rd gen evolution which I can play a symphony on , and a Remington Model 700 PSS with the .308 barrel shortened to 20" and converted to Acics mags with Badger Ordinance bottom metal that is 600 yard 9" accurate on demand. That and I became extremely proficient on the 1911 low capacity system in good old .45 caliber . I can't think of any better system for California.Just my $.02 .

AlexanderA said:

You could always consider a manually operated AR-15, like they have in England. No gas system.

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Even better than manual operated are Southern Gun lever release AR15. They have a gas system that cycles the BCG back to an open bolt position. You use a thumb activated lever to release the bolt. This is becoming common in the UK and would be a great solution in CA as well. I’ve seen these use din competition and they can be used very quickly.

For over 30 years I have had a small rack of Winchester 94s. I have never owned an AR and never will. A .44 Mag. lever gun with a 300 gr. bullet can put some serious hurt on a bad guy (or several bad guys). Some production lever guns today may need some minor tuning for 100% reliability though. Sometimes you get lucky. Every man should own a couple or three.

I was under the impression AR's and the like were already PNG there. I assume an original fixed mag SKS is acceptable? It's a darn shame what US citizens have to go through in Ca. I have a good friend that lives there (for now).

cslinger said:

I’d imagine it would be fine. I’d imagine a 12 gauge would be better. I’d also imagine if you are taking 50 yard shots in defense of home.....you are probably going to jail.

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Exactly. I never understood the carbine thing for home defense. Inside they're less maneuverable than a pistol, outside they're great except you really don't need to shoot bad guys 100 yds away or even 50. I think people watch too many action movies where carbines are deployed to enhance the fire power effect. If you can't train or don't want to train with a pistol, buy a shotgun with an 18" barrel, but some amount of training is also required with those. They aren't for everyone because recoil is substantial.

I have a few carbines and a shotgun with an 18" barrel but my choice for HD is a P229 Sig with night sights and a spare mag. Ammo is cheap and I train with it once a month.

I don't really prescribe to the SHTF scenario but I have all the tools if I'm wrong. I just like carbines in all forms, always have.

Recoil isn't as bad with some of the new, short 12 ga. home defense ammo.

<*(((>< said:

The feds are not going to ban AR15's at least not in the next 6 years. And it'll be a very big fight if they ever try, as there are millions of them in private citizens hands.

Now California that's a different story, he's operating on borrowed time down there with AR15's; but don't give up, support CALGUNS and the like and fight back on the legislation. Even if they are banned in California, he will be given time to sell out of state anyways. I say enjoy them while he can and save up to buy a lever, as it would be the next best thing to an autoloader in my opinion.

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It isn't just CA. WA and OR are going the same direction. The AR bills keep popping up in the dem controlled legislatures ( along with Initiatives) and both states have dem governors. I don't see that changing.

CoalTrain49 said:

It isn't just CA. WA and OR are going the same direction. The AR bills keep popping up in the dem controlled legislatures ( along with Initiatives) and both states have dem governors. I don't see that changing.

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Agreed, but a Fed AR15 ban isn't going to happen in the next 6 years; and likely much longer than that in my opinion.

Every time I read a thread like this, I wonder if people spend as much time planning for what happens after the shooting stops, as they do for the shooting. LOL

Drail said:

For over 30 years I have had a small rack of Winchester 94s. I have never owned an AR and never will. A .44 Mag. lever gun with a 300 gr. bullet can put some serious hurt on a bad guy (or several bad guys). Some production lever guns today may need some minor tuning for 100% reliability though. Sometimes you get lucky. Every man should own a couple or three.

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I think we're in a very small minority, I don't own one either.

They're just so military looking.

Dunross said:

Naturally the rate of fire is slower, but a sight better than a bolt action in less than expert hands.

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Hmmm. Ever watch an Cowboy action? Granted they're shooting light loads, but some of them can run a lever with splits around 0.2 sec.

AlexanderA said:

You could always consider a manually operated AR-15, like they have in England. No gas system.

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I did this for fun. Took the gas tube out, turned the gas block backwards so it blocked the hole and created a straight pull bolt. With a side charging handle it's reasonable easy to get off multiple rounds.

CoalTrain49 said:

Exactly. I never understood the carbine thing for home defense. Inside they're less maneuverable than a pistol, outside they're great except you really don't need to shoot bad guys 100 yds away or even 50. I think people watch too many action movies where carbines are deployed to enhance the fire power effect. If you can't train or don't want to train with a pistol, buy a shotgun with an 18" barrel, but some amount of training is also required with those. They aren't for everyone because recoil is substantial.

I have a few carbines and a shotgun with an 18" barrel but my choice for HD is a P229 Sig with night sights and a spare mag. Ammo is cheap and I train with it once a month.

I don't really prescribe to the SHTF scenario but I have all the tools if I'm wrong. I just like carbines in all forms, always have.

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So a shotgun with an 18 inch barrel is more maneuverable indoors than an AR carbine with an adjustable stock and a 16.5 inch barrel? If you are talking about a pistol grip shotgun, well, good luck with that. I have trained on carbines and pistols in law enforcement extensively for over 31 years. Under extreme duress many people will have problems handling a pistol correctly (shooting at the local range isn't training for fighting) whether it's due to fear and shock, injury or adrenaline. My AR has a 10.5 inch barrel and is a splendid firearm for indoor use. I use it in real life on felony warrant service all the time.

The movies I watch are mostly westerns but they don't make me think I'm better armed with one of my hunting levers than a semi-auto carbine set up for fighting.

FL-NC said:

I was under the impression AR's and the like were already PNG there. I assume an original fixed mag SKS is acceptable? It's a darn shame what US citizens have to go through in Ca. I have a good friend that lives there (for now).

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AR's are okay out here, but they have to be neutered.

A lot of people opt for what is, IMO, unsafe configurations to keep the aesthetic of a tactical looking rifle.

I go "featureless" for all my AR rigs. Makes them legally the same as a mini 14, M1 Carbine, or M1A.

It looks dumb, but they at least function properly.

They tried to ban the AR in New York, but it keeps coming back in differing forms. Funny looking as they may be, they are legal. I would assume unless all semi's are banned that the AR will survive by charging itself to meet the wording in the law as to comply. I went the mini route. Although I do have four different lever guns.

Thanks in large part to Single Action Shooting Society (SASS) contributions to Cowboy Action Shooting (CAS) there are many well made, reliable pistol caliber lever action rifles available in variety of pistol cartridges...32-20, 32 Magnum (hard to find), 38 Special, 357 Magnum, 44 Magnum and 45 Colt are the common ones that first come to mind.

Pistol cartridges are especially good for urban self-defense. Due to their shorter length they can hold more than 10 rounds.

Then there is the 30-30 along with a whole list of other cartridges for when more power and longer range is needed such as hunting.

The late Jeff Cooper even recommended a lever action 30-30 for home defense years ago. His reasons were it is light weight, can be safely stored in ready condition with magazine loaded and chamber empty, is easy to operate, small enough for women (and, if not, the buttstock can be shortened) and range of 150 yards will keep rioters away. Of course this was before AR's became popular.

The lever gun design may be old but that does not mean it is not a very useful choice.

I'm up against the same problem in Fresno -- sadly, one in seven Americans live behind the Granola Curtain here in California.

In our own SHTF, defend home and family arsenal, I've gone with four different options that I hope will allow me to both stay in the house my father built and keep right with the (albeit repressive) laws:

Ruger PC9 carbine (cheap sacrifice in the event of a real semi-auto ban, works with my Glock mags);

M1 Garand (no detachable mag, might hang on longer legally);

Remington 870 extended mag;

Troy pump-action .223 AR variant.

While overpriced, the Troy has fair degree of commonality with an AR-15 (the bolt, trigger assy. and magazines) and the pump adaptation seems pretty well executed. A couple pluses to this brand of lemonade are the greater ammo flexibility (no gas system) and the folding stock (no buffer). I've more practice with a pump action and can work it better one-handed, even though it is less forgiving than a levergun due to the potential for short-stroking.

I did think about leverguns, and without meaning to give offense, the 1892/94 design are a little more stiff and complex internally than I would prefer. I would lean more toward a recent manufacture 1873 in .357 Magnum if I went that route, due to the simpler internals and slicker action.

I can accurately fire a pump faster than a lever gun.
Personally I would leave California. I left Michigan because I didn't like all the laws and it isn't close to California. Oklahoma was a good place to land for the last while. The money is good and the laws aren't oppressive.

SMLE in rapid fire.

Can we discuss the guns as compared to your suggestion for someone to move. You going to pay the moving expenses and get them a new house and job?

Staying on topic seems difficult. Next one gets a penalty. Do I really have to go there?

I began reading last night and got sidetracked. Having now read every post I’m still no further convinced a lever, or any other is a “good” replacement for the AR. Reintroducing the aforementioned question “replacement for what” is where I’m left as every thread I have read on SD/HD choices comes down to preference which is as wide open as the market itself.

So I cast no vote and I say there is no substitute for the AR, particularly due to its massive fan base and aftermarket support. There’s sort of, looks like, and alternatives, but no true replacement in my book. Still a bit unclear as to the point of the thread but speaking directly to the two, a lever would not be my choice for 600 yard steel, defense against riotous crowds, hunting predators at 300 yards, or precision shooting at any lengthy distance. Both for HD? Sure; for the rest, no similarities to speak of.

MedWheeler said:

I don't know if the SKS is legal in California, but I do own one and I'd go to it first, though, if it was.

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Dave DeLaurant said:

Ruger PC9 carbine (cheap sacrifice in the event of a real semi-auto ban, works with my Glock mags)

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The problem is that California is really looking to come down hard on the semi-auto function, period. Even an SKS & PC Carbine are not safe. This article is a year old but I would bet this bill will be resurrected within the next few months.

One bill would expand California's assault weapon definition to include high-powered semi-automatic rifles without fixed magazines, though most .22 rifles would be excluded.

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