Best way to anneal?

I just use a deep well socket that the cartridge brass will fit into ... I attach the socket to a cordless drill and then use a small propane torch to turn the shoulder and neck a faint dull orange ... then I drop.in a bucket of water( not necessary but just habit)..... Oh I turn the drill at a slow speed and direct the flame up at the shoulder and neck ... You don't want the discolor to go but just a tad below the body outer shoulder contact area ....

If you need .... practice on some bad brass to get the "hang" of getting the color and area right before moving on to your good brass .....

Easier to see the color in a somewhat darker room ....

JimKirk said:

I just use a deep well socket that the cartridge brass will fit into ... I attach the socket to a cordless drill and then use a small propane torch to turn the shoulder and neck a faint dull orange ... then I drop.in a bucket of water( not necessary but just habit)..... Oh I turn the drill at a slow speed and direct the flame up at the shoulder and neck ... You don't want the discolor to go but just a tad below the body outer shoulder contact area ....

If you need .... practice on some bad brass to get the "hang" of getting the color and area right before moving on to your good brass .....

Easier to see the color in a somewhat darker room ....

Click to expand...

^^ this is pretty much it if you want to have a go at it cheap.

Salt bath annealing is another option too for low volume inexpensive setup.

Here is a grab photo off the web of different levels of annealing ....from left to right ....
left most cartridge brass is about correct amount .... the more to the right are excessively annealed ....

Jimkirk explained it pretty well. It isn't difficult if you pay attention.

Ditto for what JimKirk said. The only thing I would add is that when I spin the case neck in the flame I count slowly and on 30-06 size cases when I get to about 20 the neck is hot enough. The trick is to be consistent so all cases are annealed the same. I would also go with the case on the left and I probably wouldn't even get it that hot. I stop somewhere between blue and faint dull orange.

Yeah ...That left most case is plenty .... Like Sage I don't go that far most of the time....

There is no "best way", only what's easiest for you.

Get a propane tank and a good nozzle. But a temperature sensitive indicator like made by Tempilaq and have at it.
https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/100735354/tempilaq-temperature-indicator-2-oz
An electric screwdriver speeds up the process and makes for more uniform heating.

If all of that is to cumbersome you can buy an automatic machine and process the brass very quickly.
https://annealeez.com/

There are home made machines, inexpensive machines and very high end machines which are well over $1000, buy what you can or feel necessary.

Of course the reason for annealing is to control the neck tension on the bullet. I like to be able to seat the bullet with light thumb pressure on the reloading press handle. I am really picky about this and go to great lengths to get it right. One thing I have learned on long neck cases is to use a case neck expander so that I can adjust the amount of the neck that is actually gripping the bullet. One turn on the expander plug screw runs the plug into the case neck about .035. A trimmed 30-06 case neck is about .373 in length so the depth of the expander plug can help determine the tension. One turn into the neck or two turns into the neck, etc. Two turns into the neck gives about .300 of the neck gripping the bullet which is about the diameter of a 30 caliber bullet.

Consistency is the key, you want every case the same especially when you're talking about neck tension. The AMP "may" be the best, I use the salt bath system because it is cheaper and I believe I can get consistent results using a set temp and time combination. However I don't have any way to actually test the consistency.

Thought about annealing my 223, but, for now, I'm usually able to get 1k of mixed-date unprocessed LC for about 6 cents a piece.
(Do I like processing it? Not anymore than anyone else does, but it's not THAT big a chore.)

Would reeeeeeeeeeally love one of those annealeez rigs, but for my particular want/needs/abilities, and considering that 223 is the ONLY bottleneck cartridge I'm currently shooting, the initial outlay of $$$ just doesn't add up.

Quite certain that someday, when I get bored with 223, I'll move on to a caliber where the cost of brass/annealing makes more sense.

That day just hasn't got here yet!

I am going to go the salt bath route. I managed to find what I needed without ordering anything that wasn't stateside and the K type thermocouple should hopefully be here tomorrow. The salt bath seems cheaper and potentially more consistent. I am looking forward to getting it sorted out and trying it.

No "best" way. I'm a fan of the Annealeez. Not the cheapest, but it works really well.

Propane torch, fingers on the case head turning it. When it gets too hot, I cool it with a wet rag.

No worries on too much annealing since yur fingers can't take it lol. Seems to work fine near as I can tell!

I tried the socket, torch and dark room method a while back with some 6.5 cases that had 13 warm firings on them. Shot 15 from un-annealed cases and 15 from annealed cases at 300 yds and if anything, my hand annealed group was larger. I figured that I wasn't getting the consistency I needed just looking for color (or right before they showed dull color) and that I'd have to pony up for an Anealeez to get enough consistency. Maybe I should try using Tempilaq before giving up on the socket though, where are folks putting the Tempilaq, right at the shoulder or below?

Sebastian said:

I am going to go the salt bath route. I managed to find what I needed without ordering anything that wasn't stateside and the K type thermocouple should hopefully be here tomorrow. The salt bath seems cheaper and potentially more consistent. I am looking forward to getting it sorted out and trying it.

Click to expand...

Where/what did you order? I've watched the Johnny's Reloading Bench video on salt bath annealing, but I think he ordered a kit from outside the country, I didn't know there were stateside options.

I have a friend with the Anealeez and he let me try it out. It is really nice if you have a large quantity of brass to process. If I were to go that route, though, I would get some sort of adjustable propane regulator for the torch. Once you get the temp right, then run a large batch.

I ended up getting the salt bath kit. I like the fact that the temperature is constantly monitored. Some people have rigged up PID controllers, and I considered doing that, but I was able to get a consistent temp simply by monitoring the temp and adjusting the control as needed. I think this method is great for smaller batches of brass.

I ran an experiment with annealed vs non-annealed, and I could not tell that much improvement in group size or velocity SD. However, when I also turned the necks of the annealed brass, both group size and velocity SD improved significantly.

Even if annealing would not improve performance, it still has the benefit of making the brass last longer.

Sebastian said:

I am going to go the salt bath route. I managed to find what I needed without ordering anything that wasn't stateside and the K type thermocouple should hopefully be here tomorrow. The salt bath seems cheaper and potentially more consistent. I am looking forward to getting it sorted out and trying it.

Click to expand...

I would like to know where you found a source for salt. I want to keep that in mind when I need to purchase some more. Getting the kit from Canada ended up being problematic because of the salt (hazardous).

I bought a Giraud annealing machine. I chose the Giraud partly because I liked his trimmer so well and partly because of the hopper. Before that I used melted lead. Being a caster, I always had a pot full of lead close by.

Gtscotty said:

Maybe I should try using Tempilaq before giving up on the socket though, where are folks putting the Tempilaq, right at the shoulder or below?

Click to expand...

You apply it on the inside of the neck. When it changes to the wet look you done. You will find that the color change on the brass is very minimal, but you will see the thermal migration band. You will notice a flame change when you get to the right temp. Not all brass will look the same during annealing due to different allow composition.

I have a Giraud machine for my annealing.

You don’t want any “glow” of any color. In fact, if you are using propane you don’t even want the flame to change from blue to orange.

The process looks like this.

http://vid121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/annealer/nottoohot.mp4

Flames stay blue, base of case is not to hot to hold and even color around the case.

The flame will change color before the case begins to glow. If it’s doing this you need to reduce your heat or speed up the dwell time, note the flame color change.

http://vid121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/annealer.mp4

Hundreds of folks have built their own versions of that Geneva drive indexing annealing machine over the years. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?48611-finished-the-auto-annealer-today The unique thing about it vs others is that you can go from .17 Hornet to 50 BMG without needing additional “adapters” or other parts. Once set, every case, from start to finish is annealed exactly the same.

Okay..... You said BEST, not cheapest.

To me "Best" would be Accurate & Repeatable results.
"Best" would also include ease of use / setup along with the process being accomplished in a timely manner.

I have annealed hundreds of various cases using Tempilaq.
I feel that is an accurate method, but slow.
It also requires an additional cleaning operation.

So.... after a surprising xmas bonus, I took the huge plunge and purchased the AMP Mark II Annealer.

This has to be the easiest to use product I think I have ever taken out of a box and plugged in.

A .308 case takes under 3 seconds. A .45 Raptor takes less than 2 seconds.

I view annealing as a serious undertaking due to the risks involved.
If you don't get the case up to the correct temp, you have wasted your time.
If you get it too hot, you have ruined the case. This could spell trouble for the shooter and anyone else near by.

Have fun and be safe!

Giraud user here. Three of us went in on it during a time when shortages made brass hard to find. Plus, about 3500 of mine were fireformed wildcat cases and I was to the point of splitting necks on roughly 10% of them. After the Giraud treatment, I fired 2600 of those with not one split neck. I ended up running the brass through for all 3 of us. One guy had around 4000 .204 cases of various ages (for prairie dog rifles).
I don't know that annealing made any difference in accuracy. Mine are custom barrels that shoot very well anyway. The point for us was extending brass life. It may be that we have not paid for it yet. I'm not going to do the math because I'm a brass hugger, not a tree hugger. Anything to save a poor helpless piece of brass.

Gtscotty said:

where are folks putting the Tempilaq, right at the shoulder or below?

Click to expand...

On the Tempilaq, I believe that making a stripe up the side of the case is best as you will be able to tell exactly how far down the case the heat goes and then control that.
I too would like to know of a better (cheaper) source for the salt bath materials can be found but also believe that most of the hand times methods I've seen are lacking in accuracy.
Automation of the salt bath process is something that is on my list to tinker with.
(hint to jmorris - a unit to dunk it and then lift and eject it like a rifle bolt is currently my thought process)

Gtscotty said:

Where/what did you order? I've watched the Johnny's Reloading Bench video on salt bath annealing, but I think he ordered a kit from outside the country, I didn't know there were stateside options.

Click to expand...

Toprudder said:

I would like to know where you found a source for salt. I want to keep that in mind when I need to purchase some more. Getting the kit from Canada ended up being problematic because of the salt (hazardous).

Click to expand...

I also initially watched Johnny's video and saw what he was using. As you know he was using a pre-blended mix he found out of Canada. I was curious if I could replicate the mix myself and find it stateside and save some hassle. In my searching I found this video:



^^^As you can see it seems this gentleman is mixing at a ratio of 3 parts Sodium Nitrate to 2 parts Potassium Nitrate. Also as you can see this is slightly different than what Johnny is using which is a blend of Potassium Nitrate and Sodium Nitrite.

My understanding is the difference between nitrite and nitrate is one extra oxygen molecule (nitrite= o2 nitrate=o3).

I decided to just use the nitrate/nitrate mix instead of trying to replicate what Johnny used because I am not sure about potential/probable ratio change...even though I was initially trying to use the stated melting temperature as a clue to the Ballistic Recreations blend ratio. IMO trying the nitrate/nitrate blend will be easier because of the known mix ratio.

1. Potassium Nitrate:

https://hvchemical.com/?post_type=product&s=potassium+nitrate

2. Sodium Nitrate:

https://hvchemical.com/?post_type=product&s=SODIUM+NITRATE


However HV Chemical does carry Sodium Nitrite if you want to try to replicate the Ballistic Recreations blend:

3. Sodium Nitrite:

https://hvchemical.com/?post_type=product&s=SODIUM+NITRITE#

If you order the smaller one pound quantities you don't have to worry about hazmat shipping. Also, their mainpage shows a code for 10% off your first purchase code: "10OFF"

Cemetery21 said:

Giraud user here. Three of us went in on it during a time when shortages made brass hard to find. Plus, about 3500 of mine were fireformed wildcat cases and I was to the point of splitting necks on roughly 10% of them. After the Giraud treatment, I fired 2600 of those with not one split neck. I ended up running the brass through for all 3 of us. One guy had around 4000 .204 cases of various ages (for prairie dog rifles).
I don't know that annealing made any difference in accuracy. Mine are custom barrels that shoot very well anyway. The point for us was extending brass life. It may be that we have not paid for it yet. I'm not going to do the math because I'm a brass hugger, not a tree hugger. Anything to save a poor helpless piece of brass.

Click to expand...

It seem like everyones QC got worse during the last shortages and I bought my machine because I was getting split necks on new brass on the first firing. Brass was hard to find at that time but I also do quite a bit of prep on my brass. I also did not see much if any improvement in accuracy but I quit getting split necks.

With a propane torch and a 1.5" flame a 223 case needs 3-4 seconds to get to the point where 750 Tempelaq melts.