Vern Humphrey
Member
As F. Lee Bailey said, "Even a fish wouldn't get in trouble if he'd keep his damned mouth shut."
What to ‘not’ post in your windows prior to a self-defense shooting....
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Sovblocgunfan
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I was waiting for someone to add this. news outlets spin stories for max attention and usually don't have a firm understanding of the laws and how they apply in situations like this. Adding the bit about the sign was just editorial. There is no compelling reason stated in the article to convince me that the mention of the sign was attributed to anything the police did in conjunction with the investigation or arrest.
jmorris
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Yeah a simple “no trespassing” sign would do but would you be at greater risk of prosecution if you had a sign that said “beware of dog” and your dog bit someone?
I always feel there is more to the story than what “reporters” would like us to believe.
Like the shooter having a dialogue with the perp and shooting him in the butt as he is apparently leaving the yard.
I say apparently because that brings us to another very import lesson, the first thing you should do is get a lawyer. “Anything you say can and will be held against you.”
The guy walked in there and gave them the evidence in which they aressted him for. He walked in at 10am and was arrested before dark. If your going to be your own worst enemy, you should hire someone to tell you to be quiet.
https://www.twincities.com/2019/04/16/st-paul-payne-phalen-shooting-car-crash-man-wounded/
I always feel there is more to the story than what “reporters” would like us to believe.
Like the shooter having a dialogue with the perp and shooting him in the butt as he is apparently leaving the yard.
I say apparently because that brings us to another very import lesson, the first thing you should do is get a lawyer. “Anything you say can and will be held against you.”
The guy walked in there and gave them the evidence in which they aressted him for. He walked in at 10am and was arrested before dark. If your going to be your own worst enemy, you should hire someone to tell you to be quiet.
https://www.twincities.com/2019/04/16/st-paul-payne-phalen-shooting-car-crash-man-wounded/
Jeb Stuart
member
Since they have all kinds of tacky things at a gun show. How about a necklace/dog tag etc or bracelet that reads. KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT!
AlexanderA
Member
I find it ironic that one of the signs in the OP appears to be behind a glass panel, next to a door. Glass panels in and around entrance doors are a major security vulnerability. Not only can they be broken and the door unlocked by reaching in, but they offer no privacy. A thief can just walk up to the door and see into the home. Yet, you can drive around neighborhoods and 80% of the houses have glass around the front door -- and this is more common in upscale neighborhoods than in the poorer parts of town. What are people thinking?
I would suggest that hardening your house, by eliminating obvious vulnerabilities like this, has a higher priority than posting silly signs. Invest in a steel door and a solid frame, and no glass. (Put in a peephole so you can see out but the bad guy can't see in.) Ignore the dictates of fashion and "home decorating trends."
I would suggest that hardening your house, by eliminating obvious vulnerabilities like this, has a higher priority than posting silly signs. Invest in a steel door and a solid frame, and no glass. (Put in a peephole so you can see out but the bad guy can't see in.) Ignore the dictates of fashion and "home decorating trends."
Vern Humphrey
Member
If they could do that, they wouldn't need a dog tag.
Watched a lecture by a LEO and an attorney on this and take away was everything you say can be used against you. Nothing you say will be used in your defense.
Jeb Stuart
member
Police interrogation.
At one point I put 3 hunting stickers on the back window of my truck and after hearing reports of vehicle break in's looking for hunting gear I took them all off. I see a lot of the don't tread on me bumper stickers, keep honking I'm reloading, insured by Glock, Sig, etc.
First of all I paid a lot of money for my truck to put a sticker on that will devalue and ruin the paint.
Secondly does the person with the keep honking sticker stop and think how that will be used against them if they have to use deadly force in a road rage incident?
Thirdly it shows everyone who walks by that there maybe a firearm in the car and that equals busted window.
I don't wear hats, shirts, stickers, etc because yes, its very tacky because a lot of its not very nice looking. All the gun shirts I see now days shows something absolutely stupid like smoke coming from the barrel or empty case, don't tread on me which half the people are using in the wrong way, cold dead hands, come and take them. I am a proud firearm owner and hunter but when I see you walking through Walmart with your camo pants and a git-er-done T shirt or white Hanes T shirt I think to myself what a magoo! I don't know why people feel the need to plaster gun and hunting stuff all over their trucks or homes or on their person. It draws attention and screams I want attention!
I used to fish at a local pond and there is a house that borders the pond property with multiple 4x4 signs on the trees that says something about cross this line and if my Dobermans don't get you my rifle will. I would imagine a prosecutor would rip him apart if he had to shoot someone on his property or the dogs attacking someone.
First of all I paid a lot of money for my truck to put a sticker on that will devalue and ruin the paint.
Secondly does the person with the keep honking sticker stop and think how that will be used against them if they have to use deadly force in a road rage incident?
Thirdly it shows everyone who walks by that there maybe a firearm in the car and that equals busted window.
I don't wear hats, shirts, stickers, etc because yes, its very tacky because a lot of its not very nice looking. All the gun shirts I see now days shows something absolutely stupid like smoke coming from the barrel or empty case, don't tread on me which half the people are using in the wrong way, cold dead hands, come and take them. I am a proud firearm owner and hunter but when I see you walking through Walmart with your camo pants and a git-er-done T shirt or white Hanes T shirt I think to myself what a magoo! I don't know why people feel the need to plaster gun and hunting stuff all over their trucks or homes or on their person. It draws attention and screams I want attention!
I used to fish at a local pond and there is a house that borders the pond property with multiple 4x4 signs on the trees that says something about cross this line and if my Dobermans don't get you my rifle will. I would imagine a prosecutor would rip him apart if he had to shoot someone on his property or the dogs attacking someone.
Trey Veston
Member
I have "beware of Dog" signs on my fence and front door. I have a 100lb lab mix that sounds ferocious but is a big teddy bear. There is no other signage on my home to indicate I am armed.
Of course, I live in a small town with nearly zero crime. The average CityData.com crime number in America is 280.5. My town is at 25.1.
It's all about your environment. Some people choose to live in high-crime areas.
My SUV has Magpul/Yeti/RMR Bullet stickers. I have an LEO plate. No issues.
Of course, I live in a small town with nearly zero crime. The average CityData.com crime number in America is 280.5. My town is at 25.1.
It's all about your environment. Some people choose to live in high-crime areas.
My SUV has Magpul/Yeti/RMR Bullet stickers. I have an LEO plate. No issues.
The posts on this item or others like them would be more useful if we a) admit that regardless of the signs, the shooting may or may not proved to be justified after the facts come out and b) that people have different philosophical opinions regarding protection of property and use of deadly force which means different underlying premises will give different opinions, c) people have freedom of speech in this country and one cannot discount that these signs or ones like them may have made criminals go elsewhere for their fun and games or could actually encourage targeting of the individual posting such signs.
The signs to me can be problematic on the legal standpoint because anything that the defendant puts out for common view whether it is a sign, internet post, bartalk to others, is by definition not hearsay. But, it may or may not be admissible regardless under other provisions of the rules of criminal or civil procedure (two come to mind immediately which are prejudicial versus probative or improper character evidence. And whether or not it is admissible, the signs might be rebutted by other evidence. Depending on testimony, it could have been a gag gift from a relative or friend, etc. It could come out that the house had been repeatedly targeted in burglaries and so forth. The problem that the prosecution could have in trying to admit this evidence to show a predisposition to commit assault could also allow the defense, by opening the door, to produce evidence to disprove this. Often prosecutors have quite a bit of extraneous evidence that is never used at trial simply because it can allow the defense to muddy the waters, might get an unsympathetic ruling from a judge, and the tendency of some juries to consider if one part of the prosecution's case is doubtful then all of it should be doubted.
The civil case would largely rest on A) the criminal case outcome including facts developed in the case and B) the greater likelihood at getting evidence like signs into evidence in civil proceedings and C) whether or not homeowner's insurance can be tapped as often a settlement would ensue in such a case.
So, for the average THR poster a few takeaways. One is whether or not putting up these signs can be linked to other behavior such as threatening to shoot trespassers, irresponsible posts on social media, trash talking about killing people (like Francis the Psycho recruit in the movie Stripes), and so forth. If it is part of a pattern, then stop and reevaluate what you are doing as you are programming yourself for trouble.
Two, you can post such signs but a) it might put public pressure especially if those signs turn up in media reports, especially in more liberal areas, to have you charged and tried in a criminal case whether or not the charges are justified by the facts. As a result, some signs might involve greater expense, especially for a trial for legal fees, affect your likelihood of bail and the amount set, and submit you, your family, and loved ones to the procedural punishment that is our criminal justice system. All of this could result from a couple of signs. b) It could be a factor in holding you liable in a civil action where the standard of evidence required is lower and judges are usually looser about admitting evidence into a case than in a criminal one. Thus, civil action could result in additional punishment to you, your family, and loved ones as well as collateral consequences.
Under such stress, marriages and family relationships are often imperiled, jobs can be lost, one can be cutoff from civil society aka the Mark of Cain, and with the internet, your actions can be judged for the rest of your life by total strangers pulling up your name on an internet search.
With that risk, to me, it is not prudent to post such signs while others may feel that their freedom of expression outweighs the risks. As far as the law is concerned, a simple no trespassing/solicitation sign will suffice. Threatening violent action is overkill. One person once said that words are like swords, you want to keep them sweet and not sharp because you may have to eat your words later as events transpire.
The signs to me can be problematic on the legal standpoint because anything that the defendant puts out for common view whether it is a sign, internet post, bartalk to others, is by definition not hearsay. But, it may or may not be admissible regardless under other provisions of the rules of criminal or civil procedure (two come to mind immediately which are prejudicial versus probative or improper character evidence. And whether or not it is admissible, the signs might be rebutted by other evidence. Depending on testimony, it could have been a gag gift from a relative or friend, etc. It could come out that the house had been repeatedly targeted in burglaries and so forth. The problem that the prosecution could have in trying to admit this evidence to show a predisposition to commit assault could also allow the defense, by opening the door, to produce evidence to disprove this. Often prosecutors have quite a bit of extraneous evidence that is never used at trial simply because it can allow the defense to muddy the waters, might get an unsympathetic ruling from a judge, and the tendency of some juries to consider if one part of the prosecution's case is doubtful then all of it should be doubted.
The civil case would largely rest on A) the criminal case outcome including facts developed in the case and B) the greater likelihood at getting evidence like signs into evidence in civil proceedings and C) whether or not homeowner's insurance can be tapped as often a settlement would ensue in such a case.
So, for the average THR poster a few takeaways. One is whether or not putting up these signs can be linked to other behavior such as threatening to shoot trespassers, irresponsible posts on social media, trash talking about killing people (like Francis the Psycho recruit in the movie Stripes), and so forth. If it is part of a pattern, then stop and reevaluate what you are doing as you are programming yourself for trouble.
Two, you can post such signs but a) it might put public pressure especially if those signs turn up in media reports, especially in more liberal areas, to have you charged and tried in a criminal case whether or not the charges are justified by the facts. As a result, some signs might involve greater expense, especially for a trial for legal fees, affect your likelihood of bail and the amount set, and submit you, your family, and loved ones to the procedural punishment that is our criminal justice system. All of this could result from a couple of signs. b) It could be a factor in holding you liable in a civil action where the standard of evidence required is lower and judges are usually looser about admitting evidence into a case than in a criminal one. Thus, civil action could result in additional punishment to you, your family, and loved ones as well as collateral consequences.
Under such stress, marriages and family relationships are often imperiled, jobs can be lost, one can be cutoff from civil society aka the Mark of Cain, and with the internet, your actions can be judged for the rest of your life by total strangers pulling up your name on an internet search.
With that risk, to me, it is not prudent to post such signs while others may feel that their freedom of expression outweighs the risks. As far as the law is concerned, a simple no trespassing/solicitation sign will suffice. Threatening violent action is overkill. One person once said that words are like swords, you want to keep them sweet and not sharp because you may have to eat your words later as events transpire.
The news media is not our friend and remember, anything you say can be used against you in a court of law...
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