.223 shoulder bump issue

Maybe this shoulder bump thing would go better if Mr. Guffey would explain to the class in simple terms exactly, step by step, what happens in some detail, when a case is resized? We, for the most part understand case body support.

fguffey said:

No, I said it was impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has case body support and for years and years I have asked someone to explain how they move the shoulder back. I understand how cool it sounds to say "I bump the shoulder back". I also understand I am suppose to know what another reloader meant when he moves the shoulder back and or bumps the shoulder back I also find it impossible to move the shoulder back.

I have moved the shoulder back on cases, in doing so I turned the case into something that looked like an accordion or a case with bellows because the devise I was using did not have case body support.

F. Guffey

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So now I ask you to please explain the process? When I resize a case (full length resize a case) the distance between case head and shoulder datum point is reduced, so why is that Mr. Guffey and only Mr. Guffey please.

Thank You
Ron

Reloadron said:

So now I ask you to please explain the process? When I resize a case (full length resize a case) the distance between case head and shoulder datum point is reduced, so why is that Mr. Guffey and only Mr. Guffey please.

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It would be fair if you applied the same standard to all involved. I have been told I am wrong and you did not ask why I was wrong.

I can shorten the distance from the shoulder of the case to the case head, I can not shorten the distance from the shoulder to the case head by moving the moving the shoulder back. Again, with a die that has full body support. I can move the shoulder back with a die that does not have case body support, I have taken it to the extreme; when finished the cases had bellows like a Volkswagen thermostat or they took on the appearance of an according with bellows.

A case that required annealing will not fold up like an accordion with bellows and no the bellows did not cover the length of the case. It required little effort to get 5 folds.

It is possible to make a die that does not have full body support but it is necessary for the die to support the shoulder and a small section of the case body.

And then there is the other thing about sizing cases, do-nuts. If the reloader could move the shoulder back do-nuts would not be an issue. And it goes back to the die having case body support.

Years ago I suggested reloaders scribe the shoulder/case body juncture, that response was deleted. When the scribed line becomes an artifact the reloader can see the line move up the case. And then it becomes obvious, the scribed line becomes part of the shoulder. If the reloader could move the shoulder back the scribed line would eventually become part of the case body.

F. Guffey

I might suggest that further turning the die down another full turn (.071") and then camming over again with this further adjustment, is definitely going to stress the press.... Stress the press to the point where things are going to become worn, loose, bent, broken, and, where the press won't full length resize anything correctly... Camming over, in excess, is just bad for a press... I try to not cam over, it at all possible..... JMHO.... (full disclosure: very new to reloading )...

fguffey said:

Years ago I suggested reloaders scribe the shoulder/case body juncture, that response was deleted. When the scribed line becomes an artifact the reloader can see the line move up the case. And then it becomes obvious, the scribed line becomes part of the shoulder. If the reloader could move the shoulder back the scribe line would eventually become part of the case body.

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Yes, I agree and also here is my take. When a case is resized in a full length sizing die we actually get a partial new shoulder. Since the case walls can't expand outboard and we can't literally squeeze the case downward pushing the shoulder down there is only one direction left and that would be up. So yes, if we placed a scribe line right where the shoulder starts off the case body our scribe line will now be a greater distance from the case head than where it began. A small amount of case material has gone in the only direction it can go, up towards the case mouth. So a little bit of the old case body is now a small part of the lower case neck. It had to go somewhere right? Frequently the question arises with the new and learning reloader types why when we resize a case does the case overall length increase and I contend it is because the case material again had to go somewhere and the length of the case neck has increased while the distance from the case base to shoulder datum point has decreased. This is why we case trim following resizing as far as I know.

As to the terminology of "bumping" the shoulder back? I am not going to nit pick why the term is used but it is used widely enough to be an accepted term in the reloading community much like cartridge headspace when we know a cartridge actually does not have a headspace dimension the term, much like bumping a shoulder back is widely used. Unlike your comments on both terms I just figure the terms are widely used and when I hear them used I take them to mean a definition which I understand so I don't bother to argue. When I try to explain something to a new person to reloading I try to provide a decent informative post which can be visualized. I also avoid starting my post with phrases like reloaders don't understand, reloaders have yet to learn and anything which a hand loader may consider condescending. People tend to dislike that. You will attract more flies with honey than vinegar. Nothing wrong with making a statement but have the courtesy of explaining the statement in terms a new hand loader can clearly understand.

Now that I have clearly and concisely explained the shoulder bump terminology in keeping with my original question I directed at you would you care to explain why we can't bump the shoulder back? As to deletion of any of your previous post? I can't imaging why such a suggestion would have been deleted?

fguffey said:

It would be fair if you applied the same standard to all involved. I have been told I am wrong and you did not ask why I was wrong.

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Oh yes, I never said you were wrong, nope, no such history. So I have applied my answer as to bumping a shoulder back. I would suggest Google the term but I know your view of the Internet. I won't even go there.

Thank You & Have a Lovely Day.
Ron

fguffey said:

the case body is supported by the die and if the case body is moved down the case body has no choice but to get thicker.

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Brass flows forward.

Full length sizing will move brass towards the neck and into the neck, requiring trimming. The neck shoulder junction may get thicker and become a donut.
My old Lyman manual has said , brass should be scrapped after 4 trimmings. On a bottle neck cartridge like a 243 win, we trim back .010" from maximum. .010" x 4 is .040" thats a lot. I dont think i have ever had brass last long enough to trim it 4 times.

It is possible to make a die that does not have full body support but it is necessary for the die to support the shoulder and a small section of the case body.

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Yes, shoulders can be bumped back without full body support. The Forester Bushing Bump Neck sizing die doesnt support the case body. To much bump and the body will bulge, causing chambering problems.

Hi Mr. Guffey.

Reloaders refer to seating depth as jump or jam. Bullets can’t jump because they do not have legs. Only things with legs can jump. Jam is made from fruit and put on toast. How can something made from copper and lead be called jam. No one would say to spread a bullet in a piece of bread. Reloaders that use strawberry jam when seating bullets do not understand what they are doing.

Nature Boy said:

Reloaders refer to seating depth as jump or jam. Bullets can’t jump because they do not have legs. Only things with legs can jump. Jam is made from fruit and put on toast. How can something made from copper and lead be called jam. No one would say to spread a bullet in a piece of bread. Reloaders that use strawberry jam when seating bullets do not understand what they are doing.

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I'm glad i wasnt drinking coffee when I read this.

The angled shoulder of the case moves back but for some reason you attempt to spoil every thread that discusses this subject. I suppose you also think we cannot bend sheet metal yet that is precisely what is happening.
The case is not completely supported by the die as long as part of the case is extending out of the bottom of the die. As long as the head to shoulder datum of the case is longer than the shell holder to shoulder dimension of the die and shell holder combo the case can be pushed deeper into the die forcing the case shoulder into contact with the die shoulder. Since the press can develop enough force to displace the shoulder position the shoulder can be made to move. Now I have explained it fully yet I know you will find some way to object with your usual misinformation.
Guffy since you keep commenting on this why don't YOU attempt to explain how all of the rest of the world is able to move shoulder back with a die. If you cannot add anything constructive to the discussion why don't you just take a pass and let the rest of us have an uncluttered discussion that answers the OPs question instead of attempting to obfuscate the subject.

Obfuscation is the obscuring of the intended meaning of communication by making the message difficult to understand, usually with confusing and ambiguous language. The obfuscation might be either unintentional or intentional (although intent usually is connoted), and is accomplished with circumlocution (talking around the subject), the use of jargon (technical language of a profession), and the use of an argot (ingroup language) of limited communicative value to outsiders.

fguffey said:

If it is that simple you should have no trouble explaining how you move the shoulder back. What happens to the case body when the shoulder is moved back? The outside of the can not do move down or out because the outside of the case body is supported by the die and if the case body is moved down the case body has no choice but to get thicker.

F. Guffey

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fguffey said:

It would be fair if you applied the same standard to all involved. I have been told I am wrong and you did not ask why I was wrong.

I can shorten the distance from the shoulder of the case to the case head, I can not shorten the distance from the shoulder to the case head by moving the moving the shoulder back. Again, with a die that has full body support. I can move the shoulder back with a die that does not have case body support, I have taken it to the extreme; when finished the cases had bellows like a Volkswagen thermostat or they took on the appearance of an according with bellows.

A case that required annealing will not fold up like an accordion with bellows and no the bellows did not cover the length of the case. It required little effort to get 5 folds.

It is possible to make a die that does not have full body support but it is necessary for the die to support the shoulder and a small section of the case body.

And then there is the other thing about sizing cases, do-nuts. If the reloader could move the shoulder back do-nuts would not be an issue. And it goes back to the die having case body support.

Years ago I suggested reloaders scribe the shoulder/case body juncture, that response was deleted. When the scribed line becomes an artifact the reloader can see the line move up the case. And then it becomes obvious, the scribed line becomes part of the shoulder. If the reloader could move the shoulder back the scribed line would eventually become part of the case body.

F. Guffey

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Mr. Guffey
You once suggested I may not be cut out to be a reloader, (your probably correct) well I’ve learned a few things from your teachings since then and for that I thank you.
I also may not be able to bump a shoulder using a Die with full body support or explain it , however I am able to increase headspace .0025 and reduce the case body diameter to allow free chambering of reloaded rounds by way of quality threaded dies and the use of feeler gauges.
I’m still not sure what im doing wrong though.
SPJ

Please, let us all redefine "bump the shoulder" and "shoulder bump" to: "RELOCATE THE SHOULDER" and "SHOULDER RELOCATION", respectively.... No more ambiguity........

I see no reason to change what the industry and the reloaders alike have chosen over time to call something just to satisfy one troll that has never been satisfied in the 7 years I’ve been on internet forums .

The shoulder Datum doesn’t move,the case does.
Ya gotta have the secret de coder ring,
Guffey would make a statement that confused me and sent me to the shop where I would kick the wall then start measuring and mumbling.
I no longer have a bunch of resizing questions.

From the curb
J

Imagine making wind calls for a shooter without sharing the same vessel of communication