.357 Powder Test

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labnoti

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I was able to test a variety of powders for .357 Magnum and collect the results. I want to share the results and see whatever comments you might have.

These are not developed loads. They're also not recommended loads. I simply loaded up the cartridges to see what the powder would do. I didn't have a single goal in testing, but I am interested in a powder that will deliver higher velocities with a standard (non-magnum) small pistol primer. Most of the powders I tested should work well with a SPP, with the exception of H110. Based on the results, it looks like Blue Dot could use one. I've previously tested IMR4227 and Lil'Gun and found them to need a magnum primer for consistent and good results.

I used load data from the powder companies. I worked up to something near the book maximums for similar but not the same bullet. The RMR bullets are target hollowpoints that are similar in length to premium defensive hollowpoints. They are also fairly thick-plated, but not jacketed. RMR suggests a maximum velocity of 1500 fps for them.

powder-test.jpg
BE-86 and Longshot are powders I've used before. Power Pistol is new to me. It is similar to BE-86 in many ways, but seems to deliver a little more velocity, similar to Longshot.

This was the first time I tried 2400. I was expecting higher velocities. I loaded to 0.2 gr under published maximums for a Speer GDHP. I know this is not the same bullet, and that some people load cast bullets with more powder, but I don't have published data that goes that high in the charge weight. I was impressed that it did not deliver more velocity.

I was expecting more from N105. Vihtavuori does not indicate a magnum primer in their load data. I loaded about 15 cartridges all the way to their published maximum, and I still did not see consistent velocity over 1000 fps. I did not get the performance claimed for this powder at all.

As indicated, this was with a 5" barrel revolver, a tight B/C gap (four thou), and a firm crimp using a Redding Profile (roll) Crimp die. I did not see any signs of high pressure, had no difficult extractions, and there was very little fouling on the gun. The cases were all pretty clean. Blue Dot had slightly more fouling in the cases, but not much.

I can't figure out how to stop HighRoad from shrinking my table, so here is a link:
https://ibb.co/QXbWdsn
 
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labnoti said:
Vihtavuori does not indicate a magnum primer in their load data....................., and I still did not see consistent velocity over 1000 fps. I did not get the performance claimed for this powder at all.
Click to expand...
They show a 7" barrel, and my guess would be a pressure barrel with no cylinder gap. I too have not seen the velocities they show in .357 Mag.
 
I have settled on 2400 with standard primers with coated 158 Gr SWCs for "full power" .357 Mag, BE-86 for "Midrange" .357 Mag, and WST or Competition with an X-Treme 158 Gr SWC for light "plinkers".

You can get more velocity and more boom/blast with H-110 etc, but I'm not interested.
 
I look for a variety of criteria. BE86, for example, is easily the most economical of the powders I tested. It's not the most of any available, but it's certainly cheaper to shoot than N105 or even H110.

But I also like a powder that fills cases. That normally doesn't coincide with economy, but I value it. 2400 does it where BE86 does not.

I like clean powders, but I found most of these clean. Blue Dot was a little dirty. I previously tested Steel. It was a little dirtier still.

I like powders that meter well and aren't affected much by electrostatic charges. H110 is very fine and it leaks. The fine flake powders tend to fly and stick with static cling. I find Longshot, Lil'Gun, 2400, N105 flow and handle nicely.

In terms of power level, the most useful load to me is something that is going to mimic the recoil of my carry load. Because of that, I do not shoot light loads or powders like Titegroup, HP38, Bullseye, Red Dot etc. I'm also not looking for max loads of the big magnum powders (H110, MP300, Enforcer), but I was impressed there wasn't more variety in the performance of what I tested.
 
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Thanks for posting your results, always helpful to have references.

H110/W296 and Lil Gun are generally considered the velocity champs in heavy bullet magnum revolver cartridges. When I first worked up .44 Magnum loads in a Ruger Redhawk using H2400 (now Alliant) with 240 grain cast SWC, the velocity and accuracy were just not there. At the time I had never tried H110, but after I did I was a believer.

However I believe 2400 has its place depending on what your reloading objectives are, and I now use it in .357 snub loads with 135 grain Speer GD.
 
You have something going on there & might want to check it out. Your es's are extremely high and velocities look low to me.

While 2400 isn't the best powder for longer bbl'd 357 firearms, it's hard to beat in the short bbl.'s. Last year I did a little testing with 2400 and a bullet I cast. The cast bullet is a 158gr hp, the brass was starline, s&b spp & 14.7gr of 2400 for powder/load. Initially I only loaded 25 test rounds to test 5 rounds in each firearm/bbl length. The firearms used in the test:
2 1/2" bbl'd 586 l-comp 5/1000th's bg
4" & 8" bbl.'s 15-2 dan Wesson bg set to 4/1000th's
6" bbl'd 686 bg 4/1000th's
10" bbl tc contender

2 1/2" ='s 1193fps 1207fps 1182fps 1200fps 1204fps 22fps es 1197fps sd
4" ='s 1285fps 1269fps 1244fps 1242fps 1246fps 43fps es 1257fps sd
6"='s 1340fps 1367fps 1341fps 1346fps 1322fps 45fps es 1343sd
8" ='s 1393fps 1424fps 1387fps 1433fps 1394fps 39fps es 1406fps sd
10" ='s 1610fps 1620fps 1596fps 1592fps 1633fps 37fps es 1610fps sd

I've shot a lot of 2400 over the years in different 357's. The es's above are typical of what I've seen over a long period of time (1980's). Your es's should be in the +/- 40fps range if everything is right and tight. Above was 25 rounds of the same test ammo shot in 3 different firearms, the highest es was 45fps and the average es for the 3 firearm/25round test is 37.2fps.

Just something to think about, your es's are extremely high. Could be anything from old brass/inconsistent neck tension to light primer hits.
 
back in the day, 357mag/38 special die sets were cut for low pressure 38 special target loads. the expander gave only .001" neck tension so the soft target bullets would not get smashed (my rcbs die set is like this). since your 158 grain bullet will probably run all powders better with around .004" neck tension, I suggest either sanding your expander down, or having a custom expander made (the route I took).

slow powders and big bullets need a lot of neck tension.

luck,

murf
 
I used the 158 grain RMR plated hollow point.

My expander is a Redding Premium Expander die with the Titanium Nitride expander plug. I have adjusted it so I can just sit the bullet's base inside the case mouth. I found if I only expanded far enough that the bottom edge of the bullet sat on the mouth, I would get very fine copper shavings as the case shaved the copper plating. After 20 or 30 cartridges, there would be quite noticeable copper shavings on the shell plate. So I opened the case mouth a bit more.

I'm also using a Redding Micro-adjustable Profile Crimp die, and I have a firm crimp. I have noticed in the past that my ES would tighten considerably with a tighter crimp, especially with powders like Longshot. I could get the SD down to 10 on many occasions.

I did other tests where I used Berry's plated hollowpoints versus the RMR. I found no consistent difference. I also compared the Redding Profile Crimp die to the Lee FCD -- also no consistent difference.

I am concerned about the high SD and low velocities on some of these loads. Some of the ES could just be an inconsistent powder throw. I was using my Lee Auto Drum. I adjusted it until it threw at least 3 consecutive charges within +/- 0.06 grains on my GEM 20 scale. I could have weighed every charge, but I figured if they were inconsistent that would indicate something about how well the powder metered.


I measured the cases and after the open lip, the neck goes from about .3540 down to .3525. The bullets are about .3575. So I think neck tension is at least 3 thou except maybe the edge of the mouth that gets crimped.
 
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My most accurate 357 load is a 158 swc over 2400 with a cci mag primer, i know a lot of guys dont use the mag primer and dont think its required but i work up most of my loads using mag primers cause it simplifies my life and i havent seen any negative results because of it. I could share my load and velocity if anyone is interested but ill tell you its darn close to elmers load.
 
labnoti said:
lead-free
Click to expand...
Non-magnum primers have lead too don't they.

Anyway, here is my data in a similar format to yours
HTML: 
Bullet         XTP     XTP     XTP     XTP     XTP     XTP     Lead    Lead
Grains          158     158     158     158     158     158     158     158
Powder         Win 296 Lil Gun Acc #9  Acc #9  Acc #9  Acc #9  Acc #9  Acc #9
Grains         16.7    18      12.4    12.9    13.4    13.8    11.2    12.4
                          
Shot 1 FPS     1378    1438    1294    1309    1356    1304    1304    1346
Shot 2 FPS     1315    1310    1302    1350    1340    1344    1203    1368
Shot 3 FPS     1328    1388    1312    1335    1325    1343    1139    1396
Shot 4 FPS     1367    1375    1265    1335    1316    1363    1280    1337
Shot 5 FPS     1313    1337    1246    1317    1330    1416    1241    1341
Shot 6 FPS     1345    1357    1361    1327    1357    1415    1133    1402
                          
Max            1378    1438    1361    1350    1357    1416    1304    1402
Min            1313    1310    1246    1309    1316    1304    1133    1337
Mean           1341  1367.5  1296.7  1328.8  1337.3  1364.2  1216.7  1365.0
Median       1336.5    1366    1298    1331    1335  1353.5    1222   1357
ES               65      128     115     41      41     112     171     65
SD             27.2    44.3    39.9    14.6    16.8    44.2    71.3    28.5
Published FPS  1591    1577    1202                    1367    1104    1255
%diff from pub 4.83%   9.32%  8.82%                    8.24%   14.03%  4.75%
 
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enine said:
Non-magnum primers have lead too don't they.

Anyway, here is my data in a similar format to yours
HTML: 
Bullet         XTP     XTP     XTP     XTP     XTP     XTP     Lead    Lead
Grains          158     158     158     158     158     158     158     158
Powder         Win 296 Lil Gun Acc #9  Acc #9  Acc #9  Acc #9  Acc #9  Acc #9
Grains         16.7    18      12.4    12.9    13.4    13.8    11.2    12.4
                         
Shot 1 FPS     1378    1438    1294    1309    1356    1304    1304    1346
Shot 2 FPS     1315    1310    1302    1350    1340    1344    1203    1368
Shot 3 FPS     1328    1388    1312    1335    1325    1343    1139    1396
Shot 4 FPS     1367    1375    1265    1335    1316    1363    1280    1337
Shot 5 FPS     1313    1337    1246    1317    1330    1416    1241    1341
Shot 6 FPS     1345    1357    1361    1327    1357    1415    1133    1402
                         
Max            1378    1438    1361    1350    1357    1416    1304    1402
Min            1313    1310    1246    1309    1316    1304    1133    1337
Mean           1341  1367.5  1296.7  1328.8  1337.3  1364.2  1216.7  1365.0
Median       1336.5    1366    1298    1331    1335  1353.5    1222   1357
ES               65      128     115     41      41     112     171     65
SD             27.2    44.3    39.9    14.6    16.8    44.2    71.3    28.5
Published FPS  1591    1577    1202                    1367    1104    1255
%diff from pub 4.83%   9.32%  8.82%                    8.24%   14.03%  4.75%
Click to expand...
What length barrel were you shooting to get these results?
 
fxvr5 said:
Please do.
Click to expand...
I checked the only 2 modern published sources i have at hand (lyman 50th & lyman cast bullet handbook 4th ed. ) before posting and it appears to be currently considered over max by .3 grains or so -be aware.
Im sure it's the same as a lot of guys loads -
Starline brass, 13.8 grains 2400, cci 550 primer, lasercast 158 grain swc.
From a 6" gp100 i get 1250-1270 fps pretty consistantly . Ive gone as high as 14.5 grains but accuracy suffered and didn't gain much at the top end.
I used to really try to squeeze every bit of velocity out of the 357 mag but it has never been accurate for any of my guns loaded like that . I was a little suprised this load is considered over max by lyman, i'm curious if other modern manuals have 13.5 grains listed as max.
 
enine said:
Non-magnum primers have lead too don't they.
Click to expand...

Fiocchi also sells lead-free small pistol primers as a component, and can be found at Graf's and other places.

I suspect that is what he means by Fiocchi ZP SPP on his spreadsheet. The ZP probably stands for ZetaPi which is printed on the Fiocchi lead-free box. I confess I don't know what ZetaPi means.
 
Obturation said:
I checked the only 2 modern published sources i have at hand (lyman 50th & lyman cast bullet handbook 4th ed. ) before posting and it appears to be currently considered over max by .3 grains or so -be aware.
Im sure it's the same as a lot of guys loads -
Starline brass, 13.8 grains 2400, cci 550 primer, lasercast 158 grain swc.
From a 6" gp100 i get 1250-1270 fps pretty consistantly . Ive gone as high as 14.5 grains but accuracy suffered and didn't gain much at the top end.
Click to expand...

Speer lists 14.8 gr with their 158 gr jacketed/plated bullets. https://www.speer-ammo.com/download...caliber_357-358_dia/357_Magnum_158_TMJ_FN.pdf
 
Yes, ZP or Zeta Pi is Fiocchi's name. Stands for "Zero Pollution." They're lead and heavy-metal free. It really has only an arbitrary relation to being standard rather than magnum -- lead-free small pistol magnum primers are simply not offered for sale from any source I'm aware of. They do sell small rifle magnum primers. I tried those, but they're too hard to strike with a handgun mainspring. They work fine in my bolt-action rifle. So yeah, I'm only interested in powders that will work well with non-magnum primers, at least until someone starts selling lead-free magnum primers. I'm hoping Federal will do that with their Catalyst primers, but they haven't indicated so.
 
A little off topic but high es's are not a good thing. I use a lyman m-die expander for all my 38spl & 357 reloads. Decades ago I learned to use a known firearm as a baseline when using/testing new to me firearms or loads. Typically I use a contender, they have sledgehammer fp hits that take inconsistent ignition out of play. Shoot 20/30 rounds over a chronograph with the contender then with another firearm and comparing the es's can be a real eye opener. Once I've established the firearm is right & tight I'll start taking a hard look and the reloading components to lower the es's.

A couple yeas back I bought a nib 686 and started doing test loads looking for general range fodder/blammo ammo plinking loads. Started with the 38spl's. Both the contender and the 686 had low/same sd's with the 38 spl's and that 686 shot bugholes in targets @ 50ft with those 38spl test loads. The next range trip I started testing 357 loads & kept getting groups like these @ 50ft.
7yITG2Q.jpg

The es's were good and then 1 or 2 would jump/be out of spec. I got home and started taking a hard look at the 357 brass I was using. Most of it was in bad shape, well worn, spits in the case mouths, etc. I ended up tossing most of the 5 gallon bucket of the 357 brass I had laying around and ordered 2000 pieces of 357 brass from starline. Changed the brass and went back to shooting bugholes.

Just something to think about, everything starts with consistent ignition & low es's.
 
labnoti said:
They are also fairly thick-plated, but not jacketed. RMR suggests a maximum velocity of 1500 fps for them.
Click to expand...

I believe it is 1400 fps that RMR recommends not going above.

forrest r said:
You have something going on there & might want to check it out. Your es's are extremely high and velocities look low to me.
Click to expand...

Me's thinking maybe the issue is the plated bullets. Inconsistent crimps when trying to get magnum velocities, generally results in extreme ESs. Plated bullets, regardless of how thick the plating is, do not like heavy crimps. Seeing how the OP used Berry's too and found no difference in ESs, tells me either it's the bullets or he's using mixed brass with inconsistent case length. None of berry's .357 plated HPs have a cannelure, meaning a poor crimp for magnum handguns. Poor crimp can also mean less velocities when trying to use slow burning powders to achieve magnum velocities. Used to be plated bullets were a cheap alternative to jacketed. Nowadays it seems good quality jacketed bullets in bulk are no more if not less than plated. While I have found plated to be somewhat more economical while being accurate in pistols using a taper crimp and fast burning powders, I have long since quit trying to use plated and get even moderate magnum velocities. Just don"t work for me.
 
murf said:
labnoti, how are you weighing you powder charge? scale? dipper?

murf
Click to expand...

I was using my Lee Auto Drum. I adjusted it until it threw at least 3 consecutive charges within +/- 0.06 grains on my GEM 20 scale. I could have weighed every charge, but I figured if they were inconsistent that would indicate something about how well the powder metered.

The brass is all same-batch Starline. It's been loaded a few times, but it's far from worn out. Lengths are consistent, but not to 1 thou.
 
with such a small amount of powder, your 0.12 variance is ok, imo. just checking. if you were testing 38 special, I would suggest you weigh every charge as the powder weights are really small.

agree that one thou isn't going to affect the test regarding case length.

luck,

murf
 
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