The Dudedog and jell-dog PIF bullets journey

[vaalpens]

I have done one of these threads before where I posted the results from the PIF I received.

This thread is the same concept, but this time it will catalog the loading and testing of some PIF bullets I received from Dudedog and jell-dog.

A week or so ago I received some unexpected PIF packages from Dudedog and jell-dog. The bullets I received were the following:

RMR 147gr 9mm plated target HP
RMR 158gr 38/357 plated target HP
RMR 124gr 9mm plated target HP
Hornady 125gr 9mm HAP

After thanking both Dudedog and jell-dog, the first step was to plan my loads out. My plan was not to just load them up and shoot them for fun, but to actually try a few loads, get some chrono and accuracy data to share with the THR forum.

With the RMR 147gr bullets I decided to follow-up a previous test I did using CFE Pistol in 357sig. I battled to find a reasonable accurate load, but once I found something reasonable accurate, I ran out of bullets. Thes bullets will be loaded in a range from 5.7gr to 6.0gr to see if I can further refine the accuracy.

The Hornady HAP bullets will also be tested using 357sig. I have tested these before in 357sig, but this time I will follow Hodgdon load data, and start at 8.3gr Longshot and work my way up. I obviously want to see an increase in velocity from what I have tested before, but also see how accurate the bullets will be at an increased velocity.

The RMR 125gr target HP bullets did take some thinking. I decided to use it in both 9mm and 357sig, and try some loads that i found accurate using the Berrys 124gr HBFPTP bullets. To use these in 357sig, I first had to test the bullets for setback. These bullets passed with flying colors and I can now add it to my list of plated bullets that will work in 357sig. This bullet will be loaded with a variety of loads; 357sig using CFE Pistol and BE-86. 9mm using BE-86 and AutoComp.

The RMR 158gr did not take much thinking from me. I decided on loading them in 357mag using Longshot. I have read a lot about the usage of Longshot, with a lot of shooters liking Longshot, but not many actually loading the 158gr using Longshot. Since I was not planning on buying a magnum powder just for this load, I decided to stick with my decision to use Longshot and see how it works out. The Hodgdon load data for a Hornady 158gr XTP bullet will be used, but I will start at the minimum charge.

 

[vaalpens]

I have already started creating the loads mentioned in my first post. I won't go into detail regarding what is being loaded, but will show the details once I have time to actually test the loads:

Following are all the 357sig loads. The printed loads are shown in the picture, so you can probably make out the details:

You will probably be able to identify a V-Crown bullet load above. This was a PIF from AOG that I tested. These bullets were loaded to test for expansion at some time, but I have not been able to test the remaining bullets.

Following are the 357mag loads. The printed loads are also shown in the picture, so you can probably make out the details:

I still have to create the 9mm loads to complete all my test loads, and then hopefully go out this weekend to complete the testing.

Thanks again to Dudedog and jell-dog for sending these bullets my way.

 

[jell-dog]

vaalpens,
Looking forward to seeing your results!
Long range day ahead for ya
JD

 

[egd]

Hey, I'd just like to thank all three of you guys for all the testing and reporting you do. And others here too for that matter. Guys like me who aren't skilled at testing really benefit from your results.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

And so would I! I started the BE-86 thread and then because of work couldn't do anymore testing and these guys, plus some others really tested that powder to the max.

I have also received bullets from the "Dude", and I have some more I want to send him, Vaalpens, or Jell-Dog for testing because I haven't been able to shoot now for over 4 months. (that just ain't right.)

I sure enjoy their posts and especially their posts of powder and bullet tests.

Keep up the good work guys. Because of your generosity your truly high road.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

I feel it only right to thank BDS also for him starting all this.

 

[vaalpens]

vaalpens,
Looking forward to seeing your results!
Long range day ahead for ya
JD

Thanks jell-dog.

Yes, it will one of those days where I need to take enough refreshments with me. The revolver loads will definitely be tested at 10 yards, but I need to decide if I want to test the 9mm and 357sig loads at 15 yards with the chrono, or the normal 10 yards with the chrono. I think testing the auto loads at 15 yards gives me better feedback.

 

[vaalpens]

Hey, I'd just like to thank all three of you guys for all the testing and reporting you do. And others here too for that matter. Guys like me who aren't skilled at testing really benefit from your results.

egd, thanks for the nice comments.

Well at least I have one person fooled in thinking I am skilled at testing. When you are looking for skilled then you need to look at walkalong and bds and some other members. I am at the bottom of the ladder when it comes to testing experience.

 

[vaalpens]

And so would I! I started the BE-86 thread and then because of work couldn't do anymore testing and these guys, plus some others really tested that powder to the max.

I have also received bullets from the "Dude", and I have some more I want to send him, Vaalpens, or Jell-Dog for testing because I haven't been able to shoot now for over 4 months. (that just ain't right.)

I sure enjoy their posts and especially their posts of powder and bullet tests.

Keep up the good work guys. Because of your generosity your truly high road.

I feel it only right to thank BDS also for him starting all this.

tightgroup tiger, thanks for the kind words.

We are all in this together.

That was/is a great thread you have started for BE-86. It made me notice BE-86 and I made the effort to try and get the powder. Now it seems like one of my go-to powders for certain situation. I'm not sure if it is my most accurate load, but it seems to get to an acceptable SD/ES, accuracy and velocity combination easier than other powders.

I was actually debating (yes, with myself) between using BE-86, CFEPistol and Longshot for the 158gr 357mag loads. I just went with Longshot since I enjoy shooting it, and it seems that it is not used that much in 357mag. It is always nice to try something different.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

Yea, it is nice to try something different, that is probably why I have about ten different pistol powders on my loading shelf right now. It's from experimenting.

I tried Longshot in .357 mag briefly one time and it didn't turn out good. I was comparing it to Power Pistol, Unique, and Universal and it didn't measure up to their worst loads. Like I said, "Briefly", that is not a true test.

I like Longshot in 9mm at high end loads. Seems like it has to be really confined to shine.

Despite all the flash and bang that Power Pistol has I still prefer it for mid range .357mag loads, mostly because I haven't been able to buy Be-86 or Unique for a quite a while locally. Power Pistol is everywhere and it is like Unique in that it works for a multitude of uses in reloading.

I haven't seen BE-86 since I bought that first 5 lbs when I started that thread.

Paul, are you listening? Your hurting my parts!

Anyways, I'm watching your thread so if you do come up with a good load for Longshot, It would be another powder that could have many uses.

Right now I'm skeptical about it in .357mag.

Carry on! Your doing a hell of job for us!

 

[vaalpens]

Yea, it is nice to try something different, that is probably why I have about ten different pistol powders on my loading shelf right now. It's from experimenting.

I tried Longshot in .357 mag briefly one time and it didn't turn out good. I was comparing it to Power Pistol, Unique, and Universal and it didn't measure up to their worst loads. Like I said, "Briefly", that is not a true test.

I like Longshot in 9mm at high end loads. Seems like it has to be really confined to shine.

Despite all the flash and bang that Power Pistol has I still prefer it for mid range .357mag loads, mostly because I haven't been able to buy Be-86 or Unique for a quite a while locally. Power Pistol is everywhere and it is like Unique in that it works for a multitude of uses in reloading.

I haven't seen BE-86 since I bought that first 5 lbs when I started that thread.

Paul, are you listening? Your hurting my parts!

Anyways, I'm watching your thread so if you do come up with a good load for Longshot, It would be another powder that could have many uses.

Right now I'm skeptical about it in .357mag.

Carry on! Your doing a hell of job for us!

Another reason for choosing Longshot was that I have 2lb and Longshot is now one of the cheaper powders around here.

For me it just seems that Longshot is always ranks in the middle somewhere when it comes to accuracy. I have loads for it in 357sig, 9mm and 40s&w, but has never been my go-to load in any cartridge. Same can be said for my PowerPistol loads. I love shooting them, but they never rank high for. Maybe I just need to dedicate more time towards load development on them.

What do you mean that your Longshot loads did not measure up to the worst loads in PowerPistol, Unique and Universal. Was this purely accuracy, or also some other measuring criteria?

 

[vaalpens]

I have now also loaded a few 9mm rounds with the RMR 124gr 9mm plated target HP bullets using BE-86 and AutoComp. These loads are based on some of my better loads to see how they compare.

So far everything looks to be on target for testing these loads this weekend.

 

[Dudedog]

Looking forward to seeing the results.
I enjoy seeing the results you and jell-dog post, and appreciate you guys taking the time to post for all of us.
Planning on a range trip Sunday so hopefully I can do some testing then.
(lots of things to test)
Hope the bullets work out well for you.

 

[longdayjake]

They really are pretty cool guys. We need more of those guys on the forum.

 

[mdi]

Please 'scuse my ignorance, "PIF", "AOG"?

 

[Artofgolf]

Please 'scuse my ignorance, "PIF", "AOG"?

No worries
PIF = Pay It Forward
AOG = Artofgolf

 

[mdi]

Thanks. Sometimes when one comes upon a thread, abbreviations and acronyms are really confusing. Since I had no "starting point" to reference to, it made no sense to me... Kinda like an "inside joke"...

 

[vaalpens]

I was able to test my loads today, even though it was a bit windy. I'm not sure how much the wind impacted my shooting, but I had some good and some not so good results. Probably the same as I normally have.

The first test result is for the RMR 147gr 9mm plated target HP bullet. This bullet was tested for accuracy at 15yards using a rest with standard open sights. The plan with these loads were to further refine my load, and determine if I were on the right track with my previous limited testing.

Following are the chrono results for the 4 loads:

P229, 357sig, 3.9"
COL: 1.140"
RMR, 147gr, HMHPRR, CFEpistol, 5.7gr, CCI500
Average: 1008
ES: 10
SD: 7.1
Force: 332
PF: 148
Velocities: 1003, 1013, , ,

P229, 357sig, 3.9"
COL: 1.140"
RMR, 147gr, HMHPRR, CFEpistol, 5.8gr, CCI500
Average: 1039
ES: 21
SD: 7.7
Force: 352
PF: 152
Velocities: 1036, 1028, 1042, 1049, 1040

P229, 357sig, 3.9"
COL: 1.140"
RMR, 147gr, HMHPRR, CFEpistol, 5.9gr, CCI500
Average: 1052
ES: 20
SD: 7.5
Force: 361
PF: 154
Velocities: 1050, 1044, 1049, 1054, 1064

P229, 357sig, 3.9"
COL: 1.140"
RMR, 147gr, HMHPRR, CFEpistol, 6gr, CCI500
Average: 1064
ES: 26
SD: 11.4
Force: 369
PF: 156
Velocities: 1054, 1073, 1052, 1078, 1063

I have no idea what happened with the chrono results for the first load, but it only registered 2 shots. I actually shot both the first and second load using the same string, but only a total of 7 shots registered.

The 5.7gr load was the most accurate load. Following is the target:

After some initial difficulty in getting good accuracy out of the RMR 147gr bullets in 357sig, I think I finally found a good combination. The remaining loads grouped as follow: 1.46", 2.22" and 2.22". I don't know if I will find the same accuracy at a higher load, but I think I am happy with the results.

The .86" grouping at 15yards is actually now my number one ranked grouping at 15yards.

 

[jell-dog]

Great results vaalpens!
Looks like you have a winning load
JD

 

[vaalpens]

The next load I have to share are the Hornady 125gr 9mm HAP bullets.

These bullets were loaded in 357sig using the Longshot data from Hodgdon.

My plan for this load/test was to see what velocity I will see, and also how accurate the HAP bullet will be at the higher velocities.

The testing was done using a rest at 15 yards, and also utilizing my chrono at the same time.

Following are the chrono data:

P229, 357sig, 3.9"
COL: 1.140"
Hornady, 125gr, HAP, Longshot, 8.3gr, WSP
Average: 1332
ES: 28
SD: 11.6
Force: 492
PF: 166
Velocities: 1318, 1329, 1326, 1342, 1346

P229, 357sig, 3.9"
COL: 1.140"
Hornady, 125gr, HAP, Longshot, 8.5gr, WSP
Average: 1347
ES: 58
SD: 23.6
Force: 504
PF: 168
Velocities: 1355, 1341, 1329, 1384, 1326

P229, 357sig, 3.9"
COL: 1.140"
Hornady, 125gr, HAP, Longshot, 8.7gr, WSP
Average: 1374
ES: 37
SD: 13.7
Force: 524
PF: 171
Velocities: 1377, 1394, 1357, 1367, 1377

P229, 357sig, 3.9"
COL: 1.140"
Hornady, 125gr, HAP, Longshot, 8.9gr, WSP
Average: 1366
ES: 60
SD: 24.3
Force: 518
PF: 170
Velocities: 1404, 1348, 1375, 1361, 1344

This was the first time that I actually reached over 1400fps using a 125gr bullet since I have always been loading more on the conservative side. I verified the cases and primers after testing the HAP bullets, and everything checked out.

It was interesting to see that the 8.9gr load actually averaged lower than the 8.7gr load.

The accuracy was definitely acceptable to me at 15yards, with the 8.5gr load giving the best accuracy. The grouping for all loads were: 1.54", 1.52", 2.24" and 1.88". Following is the target from the most accurate load:

My conclusion is that these HAP bullets really shoot well at the speed I am loading them. Now I just need to decide what to do with the rest of the bullets. It seems I won't see a better accuracy if I up the Longshot charge, so maybe I need to look at trying another powder and compare the results with the Longshot loads.

 

[vaalpens]

Great results vaalpens!
Looks like you have a winning load
JD

Thanks jell-dog.

I was debating what to do with the remaining bullets, but it seems it would make sense maybe to test them at 25yards. I was really surprised with the accuracy, especially with the windy day.

 

[vaalpens]

The next load I have to share are the loads for the RMR 158gr 38/357 plated target HP bullets.

For this load I decided to try Longshot. I used the Hodgdon load data for these loads.

What I tried to accomplish for these loads was to see what velocity I would see, and also what the accuracy would be. I was hoping to get a nice 357mag type feeling and some decent accuracy.

These loads were tested at 10yards from a rest using my 3" Ruger SP101 with standard open sights.

Following is the chrono data:

SP101, 357mag, 3"
COL: 1.580"
RMR, 158gr, HMRNHP, Longshot, 7.3gr, WSP
Average: 933
ES: 92
SD: 36.5
Force: 305
PF: 147
Velocities: 954, 920, 913, 894, 986

SP101, 357mag, 3"
COL: 1.580"
RMR, 158gr, HMRNHP, Longshot, 7.5gr, WSP
Average: 947
ES: 126
SD: 53.2
Force: 315
PF: 149
Velocities: 873, 919, 995, 999, 953

SP101, 357mag, 3"
COL: 1.580"
RMR, 158gr, HMRNHP, Longshot, 7.7gr, WSP
Average: 937
ES: 108
SD: 45
Force: 308
PF: 148
Velocities: 893, 1001, 897, 959, 938

SP101, 357mag, 3"
COL: 1.580"
RMR, 158gr, HMRNHP, Longshot, 7.9gr, WSP
Average: 1007
ES: 78
SD: 28.3
Force: 356
PF: 159
Velocities: 1008, 1016, 962, 1040, 1010

The ES/SD data is not that good, but it is something I see with the revolver. I'm not sure if it is the powder, my load, or not a consistent powder forward/backward location.

With the 7.9gr I did see an average over a 1000fps, which is good for the 3". A few weeks ago I shot some Black Hills 158gr HP bullets and saw around 1050fps. These loads are definitely getting close to it.

I like the feel of the loads, and definitely felt like 357mag loads. The SP101 manages the recoil very well, and I think the Hogue grips also helped.

Following are the targets from the loads. I decided to show all 4 of them, since I think they are all similar, and show more the ability of the shooter (me). I think I am still trying to find a consistent sight alignment.

My conclusion is that I like these bullets in 357mag. They are easy to load, looks good, and performs well. It just seems that I need to work on my shooting from a rest top get as consistent as possible.

For my next loads I think I will stick with Longshot, but will increase the load a bit to see how it impact the SD/ES numbers, and if I see a deterioration in the accuracy.

 

[vaalpens]

The next report is for the RMR 124gr 9mm plated target HP bullets.

This report I kept for last since I wasn't sure what to make of it. When I started testing the 147gr target bullets, it did not work for me and I had to back off the charge until I found an accurate load. It looks like these 124gr bullets are of the the same construction, and it seems I am running into the same issue again, too much velocity.

The 9mm loads grouping wasn't good, but the 357sig grouping was even worse. To me it seems I will have to just pick one of the powders and try and get to a grouping where I make progress, and then maybe fine tune it like I did with the 147gr bullets. My feeling is that the bullets should be accurate as long as I find the correct velocity/powder combination. For now I am leaning towards working up a few more loads in 9mm only.

I did not scan any of my targets, not much to show unless you want to see bad groupings, but I will provide the chrono data. Following is the chrono data with added grouping results:

P229, 357sig, 3.9"
COL: 1.135"
RMR, 124gr, HMHPRR, BE86, 7.4gr, WSP
Average: 1236
ES: 17
SD: 7.1
Force: 421
PF: 153
Velocities: 1232, 1232, 1235, 1235, 1249
Grouping: 5.75"

P229, 357sig, 3.9"
COL: 1.135"
RMR, 124gr, HMHPRR, BE86, 7.6gr, WSP
Average: 1264
ES: 42
SD: 16.3
Force: 440
PF: 156
Velocities: 1247, 1253, 1289, 1266, 1269
Grouping: 5.0"

P229, 357sig, 3.9"
COL: 1.135"
RMR, 124gr, HMHPRR, CFEpistol, 7gr, WSP
Average: 1222
ES: 57
SD: 21
Force: 411
PF: 151
Velocities: 1218, 1225, 1232, 1248, 1191
Grouping: 2.54"

P229, 357sig, 3.9"
COL: 1.135"
RMR, 124gr, HMHPRR, CFEpistol, 7.2gr, WSP
Average: 1254
ES: 20
SD: 8.1
Force: 433
PF: 155
Velocities: 1266, 1246, 1259, 1250, 1250
Grouping: 5.56"

SP2022, 9mm, 3.9"
COL: 1.060"
RMR, 124gr, HMHPRR, BE86, 5.6gr, WSP
Average: 1090
ES: 34
SD: 16.1
Force: 327
PF: 135
Velocities: 1111, 1081, 1104, 1078, 1077
Grouping: 2.08"

SP2022, 9mm, 3.9"
COL: 1.060"
RMR, 124gr, HMHPRR, AutoComp, 5.3gr, WSP
Average: 1077
ES: 24
SD: 9.7
Force: 319
PF: 133
Velocities: 1063, 1072, 1087, 1084, 1079
Grouping: 3.16"

 

[vaalpens]

Looking forward to seeing the results.
I enjoy seeing the results you and jell-dog post, and appreciate you guys taking the time to post for all of us.
Planning on a range trip Sunday so hopefully I can do some testing then.
(lots of things to test)
Hope the bullets work out well for you.

Dudedog, thanks for the kind words and sorry for my late response. It seems I missed the post between during the hectic time of getting ready to test the loads.

I have posted the test results. Let me know how your test results with the 158gr RMR's compare with mine. You will probably put me to shame with your groupings and velocities.

 

[vaalpens]

They really are pretty cool guys. We need more of those guys on the forum.

longdayjake, you must be happy seeing your bullets being tested and admired. Thanks for everything you do for the shooting community.

I have to disagree with you one one point. My kids will definitely not mention me and cool in the same sentence.