Ballistics of .38/.357 & Reconsideration of .45 Colt

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I have heard that before on the internet and yet despite several years of searching I have never found proof that SAAMI changed anything related to 38 Special or 357 Magnum. The only change has been the introduction of 38 Special +P. If you have documented proof of your claim I would love to see it.
That has all changed. The .357 was originally well over 40,000CUP and was changed to 36,000psi. The .38Spl was not always the 17,000 and 18,500psi it is today.

Additionally, the .44Mag was originally 43,500CUP maximum and later reduced to 36,000psi. Before anybody goes on about how CUP and PSI do not correlate, that IS a reduction.
 
Buffalo Bore claims these velocities for their 158gr .38 Spl +p LSWC.

...


Seem like factory 158gr .357 Mag usually hits about 1250fps from a 4" barrel. So if the velocities are correct, that's very good performance for .38 Spl.

Yes, but Buffalo Bore is not a SAAMI member and they do not claim that ammunition meets SAAMI pressure specifications. They only make vague claims that it is within standard or +P pressure. The advantage Buffalo Bore has is they can pressure test their loads, whereas a handloader could also load a 38 Special case to a higher peak pressure like 26,000 psi. A gun built to withstand .357 Magnum could certainly withstand that, and most guns built for .38 Special +P could withstand it, but the handloader would be decreasing their margin of safety without knowing by exactly how much or by how much the peak pressure of their load varied. Buffalo Bore doesn't have any magic. They just get closer to the "line," and that line is beyond the arbitrary line accepted by SAAMI members for a greater margin of safety. One does not gain anything with Buffalo Bore they could not gain by simply using 357 Magnum. What one gains by pushing the limits of 357 Magnum is questionable. What can it do that normal 357 doesn't do?
 
I have posted this several times when the talk of +P starts. Most factory +P from the big name ammo companies is at best what original 38 Specials were loaded to.

http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.com/2009/01/p-phenomenon-by-saxonpig.html
SaxonPig needs to update his information.


What can it do that normal 357 doesn't do?
BB plays AT the line for performance' sake. The major manufacturers play well below the line for liability's sake and ease of manufacture. Tolerances can be much broader when you're well below the limit.
 
And bias ply tires used to be all the rage. No reason to saddle yourself with something inferior because it worked in the past. JMHO.
There was a time (yes, I am that old) when all that I could afford were $8 bias ply recaps from Big-O. They were all that I could afford, they gave me upwards of a years service each, and I am still alive to tell the tale. The OP is on a budget, just starting out, and it seems that everyone here wants him to spend more than he has to meet threats that he will probably never face.

I still contend, despite the heckling from the peanut gallery, that he would be well served with a Model 10, Model 64, Ruger Six, or similar used steel frame .38 Special revolver. He could load it up with cheap target ammo for practice, carry decent HP ammo for self-defense, and if he finds himself in the back woods to carry it stoked with stout hardcast.
 
There was a time (yes, I am that old) when all that I could afford were $8 bias ply recaps from Big-O. They were all that I could afford, they gave me upwards of a years service each, and I am still alive to tell the tale. The OP is on a budget, just starting out, and it seems that everyone here wants him to spend more than he has to meet threats that he will probably never face.

I still contend, despite the heckling from the peanut gallery, that he would be well served with a Model 10, Model 64, Ruger Six, or similar used steel frame .38 Special revolver. He could load it up with cheap target ammo for practice, carry decent HP ammo for self-defense, and if he finds himself in the back woods to carry it stoked with stout hardcast.

I'm beginning to concur. What I would like to own, and what I can afford are two entirely different things.
 
Probably any bullet under 140grs. The standard for the 38 Special has always been a 158gr full power bullet and the 148gr target WC loading. But everything from round balls to light weight gallery loads have been loaded in 38 cases.

I have posted this several times when the talk of +P starts. Most factory +P from the big name ammo companies is at best what original 38 Specials were loaded to.

http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.com/2009/01/p-phenomenon-by-saxonpig.html
And I figure original guns were substantial in size, not one of these sub-20 ounce guns with only a hint of a barrel, while still stamped "+p".
 
Yes, but Buffalo Bore is not a SAAMI member and they do not claim that ammunition meets SAAMI pressure specifications. They only make vague claims that it is within standard or +P pressure. The advantage Buffalo Bore has is they can pressure test their loads, whereas a handloader could also load a 38 Special case to a higher peak pressure like 26,000 psi. A gun built to withstand .357 Magnum could certainly withstand that, and most guns built for .38 Special +P could withstand it, but the handloader would be decreasing their margin of safety without knowing by exactly how much or by how much the peak pressure of their load varied. Buffalo Bore doesn't have any magic. They just get closer to the "line," and that line is beyond the arbitrary line accepted by SAAMI members for a greater margin of safety. One does not gain anything with Buffalo Bore they could not gain by simply using 357 Magnum. What one gains by pushing the limits of 357 Magnum is questionable. What can it do that normal 357 doesn't do?

My point was that if only shot occasionally, in a gun such as the S&W Model 10 (which the OP has interest in), it could easily serve as a passable woods load. Whilst not ideal, the revolver and a load such as that one could fill the gap until the OP has more funds available.
 
BB plays AT the line for performance' sake. The major manufacturers play well below the line for liability's sake and ease of manufacture. Tolerances can be much broader when you're well below the limit.

What pressures are the major manufacturers loading their ammo to?

Does this also apply to data in loading manuals? Thanks.
 
That has all changed. The .357 was originally well over 40,000CUP and was changed to 36,000psi. The .38Spl was not always the 17,000 and 18,500psi it is today.

Additionally, the .44Mag was originally 43,500CUP maximum and later reduced to 36,000psi. Before anybody goes on about how CUP and PSI do not correlate, that IS a reduction.

How do you know it's a reduction if their is no correlation between CUP and PSI? Don't you need to know the relationship between these measuring methods before you can make that claim?

What were the 38 Special PSI pressures in the past?
 
SaxonPig needs to update his information.

He post over on the firingline forum if you want to correct his data.

And I figure original guns were substantial in size, not one of these sub-20 ounce guns with only a hint of a barrel, while still stamped "+p".

Model 10 and M&Ps, the early name for a model 10 were the same size then as they are now. And yes the 38 Outdoorsman 38/44 was built on the N-Frame gun but I don't believe we are talking about those. The OP couldn't afford one of those anyway. The Colt 38s are A little bigger than the model 10 and so are the Taurus models 80 and 82. Excellent fixed sight 38s that can sometimes be found really cheap. I have owned both models and wish I still had them. Especially the model 82.
 
What pressures are the major manufacturers loading their ammo to?
No idea, that's proprietary information that could only be uncovered by 3rd party pressure testing. However, velocity is a very good indicator of pressure. People ass-u-me that factory loads are near maximum pressure but there is no reasoning behind it. The reason that BB loads are higher velocity than off the shelf ammo is not because their pressure is higher but because most commercial ammo is lower. Sorry but a 240gr at 1100fps is not a 36,000psi .44Mag load.


How do you know it's a reduction if their is no correlation between CUP and PSI? Don't you need to know the relationship between these measuring methods before you can make that claim?
Because in straightwall revolver cartridges, they are very nearly the same. Near enough to glean that a change from 43,500CUP to 36,000psi is most assuredly a reduction.


He post over on the firingline forum if you want to correct his data.
I'd rather chew broken glass but I don't have to. The facts are right here for all to see. People act as if this information is not readily available.

https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...FP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf
 
I'd rather chew broken glass but I don't have to. The facts are right here for all to see. People act as if this information is not readily available.

I downloaded all 198 pages in your link and no, I'm not going to read through them all. How about just copying and pasting what you want to prove your point?
 
All you have to do is look at max pressures for the .38Spl and +P. Not rocket science.

CTRL + F is your friend.

17,000 and 20,000psi.
 
If we could, could we maybe start a new thread with this ... excitable discussion ? This is getting *way* off track (not that I mind).
 
@ all, if this continues to... enliven, I will kindly ask a mod to shut it down. Keep it civilized. We're humans, not starving dogs.
 
You consider working pressures of the cartridges you're considering to be off topic??? One of the best things about forums like this are all the tangential but related topics of discussion where people actually learn the answers to questions they did not think to ask. That makes it all more productive.

You also seem to have an odd idea of what constitutes incivility. It's probably best not to scold your fellow members too much unless you see an obvious rule violation. Of which there are none here. :confused:
 
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Obvious rule violation ? This thread is about three comments away from an internet bar fight.
 
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