Fighting Powderpuff, the .45 Minor

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Jim Watson

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1. Tolerance. My nerves and arthritis let me shoot 9mm regularly. USPSA Minor isn't winning me anything but a Major Flinch wouldn't either and be a lot less fun. Major or full power .45 hurts and will kick me into a flinch in short order. I load .45s way down to keep from retiring the guns. My carry and house guns are mostly 9mm.

2. Recommendations. A lot of people consider .38 Wadcutter to be suitable for self defense.

3. So what about .45 Midrange? Would I be reasonably well armed with a 185 gr at 775 fps? That's about all the fun I can stand for a reasonable practice with the Commander.
 
A) Would such a round reliably cycle the action of a pistol set up for standard 45 ACP loads, Jim Watson? Or would it require a new recoil spring?*

B) I guess my first reaction to someone with a 45 automatic who wants a defensive pistol with less recoil is to suggest they get a similar 9x19mm pistol. However, I understand that many people value bullet weight and diameter for stopping power over kinetic energy and bullet expansion, so a 9mm might not serve your purpose. It also requires replacing a gun you may have practiced with for years or even decades, and would be a waste, at least to some extent, of that experience.

C) I think if you are using 230 grain FMJ as your defensive load in your Commander, than the load you are proposing would be either just as effective, or only slightly less so. And if you can shoot it faster and more accurately, then its practical effectiveness is greater.

All the above is just my opinion, right off the top of my head. I hope it's useful, or at least pertinent.

*After re-reading your post, I guess from context you are using this load already and that is does work fine. But I thought I would leave the question in, in case it was of concern to others.
 
I'd worry about cycling reliability in my guns as they seem to like a higher pressure, but out of a revolver I think they would do the trick.
 
I have run 185 gr. ammo through my Gold Cup, Commander, and Officer's Model ACP for many years and found it made for a very comfortable shooting experience with considerably less felt recoil as compared to 230 gr. ball ammo.
 
I was shooting 200gr 45 cal bullets at ~650 fps pushed by Trailboss or Titegroup for a 45 minor Production gun for USPSA for awhile. I was using an XD-45 and was running a really light recoil spring to make it reliable. It worked, had a very soft recoil impulse that felt a little wonky in the hands but did work. Better than a sharp stick in a pinch.
 
1. Tolerance. My nerves and arthritis let me shoot 9mm regularly. USPSA Minor isn't winning me anything but a Major Flinch wouldn't either and be a lot less fun. Major or full power .45 hurts and will kick me into a flinch in short order. I load .45s way down to keep from retiring the guns. My carry and house guns are mostly 9mm.

2. Recommendations. A lot of people consider .38 Wadcutter to be suitable for self defense.

3. So what about .45 Midrange? Would I be reasonably well armed with a 185 gr at 775 fps? That's about all the fun I can stand for a reasonable practice with the Commander.

Have you tried going with a Reduced Radius Firing Pin Stop?

I've found that it makes a tremendous difference in felt recoil.
 
Yes. I didn't.

A) Would such a round reliably cycle the action of a pistol set up for standard 45 ACP loads, Jim Watson? Or would it require a new recoil spring?*

The Commander will function with pretty light loads, and springs are cheap.

B) suggest they get a similar 9x19mm pistol.

I own various 9mms and have my eye on the DWX-C when it actually arrives.

However, It also requires replacing a gun you may have practiced with for years or even decades, and would be a waste, at least to some extent, of that experience.

This is the main point.

C) I think if you are using 230 grain FMJ as your defensive load in your Commander, than the load you are proposing would be either just as effective, or only slightly less so. And if you can shoot it faster and more accurately, then its practical effectiveness is greater.

I have worked my way down from various full power rounds, the least jarring being the Hornady 9112 200 gr XTP at 900 fps, "John Browning's Load" to a barely Major handload with that bullet. Looks like I am ready to drop down another notch.
 
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185 grain bullets allow me to keep shooting my 45.
I load various 185 jacketed and plated bullets to around 800 fps.
I don't expect any expansion from any of those bullets, but I don't think they'll shrink either.
My preferred bullet is the 185 grain button nose jacketed SWC, but they are quite rare.
Berry's plated 185 SWC is a good bullet too.
I think a 45 target load is a legitimate defense load.
 
If my Commander feeds those factory match FMJ SWC, I would be surprised. When I first got it, I tried the Nonte test and only got through 197 HG68 types.
Which is why I will try the Asym JHP match. I know the gun feeds XTPs ok, but the 900 fps of the Hornady load has become too hot for comfort. I will get some Zero Conical Nose for load development.
 
:rofl:
Too funny, good name!
I need this load data!:)
The link I found no longer works.
https://www.berrysmfg.com/upload/pdfs/Geezer Load - Markwell.pdf

I did save the .pdf file, but it is too large to upload to this sight.
So I copied the text.

Titled: The Geezer Load for 45 ACP
by John Markwell

Spoiler; He uses 4.3-4.4 gr. Clays and Berry's 185 gr. HBRN (OAL @ 1.250"). And a 16 lb. recoil spring.
I started shooting practical pistol in 1977 at the Fort Harmar Rifle Club in Marietta, Ohio. The
practical shooting program at Fort Harmar was started and run by Ken Hachathorn and Carl Heinrich
(original IPSC founders). Throughout the equipment race years, this club, under Ken’s influence, was
the last bastion of the 5 inch 1911 in 45ACP. Other notables who shot at this club were Rick Miller,
Charlie Kelsey (Devel), Wayne Novak, Steve Nastoff, and a host of others. All of us older IPSC shooters
shot a lot of hardball, and equivalent hand loads, over the years and many of us have paid the price for
that abuse.
My buddy Ken and I had talked about our lack of tolerance for recoil often before his recent move to
Idaho. At this point in our lives, we no longer feel that “making major” is a big deal or that shooting Kieth
loads through 44 Magnums is mandatory for maintaining our manly image.
At the 2011 SHOT Show I mentioned to Jay Phillips that I had been working on a 45ACP load for us
older guys. The primary attribute of this load was to be soft recoil; if it could make IDPA major (165,000)
so be it. If not, it would at least allow those of us with beat up joints to continue to use and enjoy our
45ACP handguns.
I had tried heavy, 255gr., cast bullets at low velocity in the past and found reliability to be OK, but all
the loads I tried were extremely dirty. Using 200gr. H&G 68 cast semi-wadcutters, I tried just cutting
my charges of Winchester 231 to reduce velocity, and thus recoil, but found that even with lighter recoil
springs the reliability I was looking for was not there. These loads also were dirty, left lots of unburned
powder in the action, and, as pressures decreased, left serious carbon deposits on the fired cases.
Back to the SHOT show and Jay Phillips who suggested I try some of Berrys’ 185gr. HBRN double
struck plated bullets. I tried some of these bullets with normal Win. 231 charges and found I could get
good reliability and some reduction in felt recoil, but not enough of the latter.
Fast forward to the NRA show, Jay again, and the same conversation. To make a long story short
between Jay, Ken, Chris Hodgdon, and a couple of other folks, it was decided that some other powders
needed to be tried with the Berrys’ 185 round nosed bullets.
I’ll spare you all the sordid details of experimentation. I do however have to extend a big thank you to
my son Brock, son-in-law Emmitt, and Matt Pyle (all young guys with good joints) for doing some of the
shooting/evaluation of a fair number of loads.
So, here’s the scoop on the Geezer Load. Using mixed cases, with Winchester large pistol primers, and
Berry’ 185gr. HBRN bullet, a charge of 4.3-4.4 grains of Hodgdon’s Clays gives a velocity 758fps. The finished
rounds are loaded to an OAL of 1.250” and are crimped to .468”. The load is as close to 100% reliable
as it can be in my full size 1911 Government model pistols when they are run with 16lb. recoil springs.
POA/POI with fixed sight guns is pretty much the same as with hard ball or a 200gr.SWC equivalent loading
out to 20 yards. The load is certainly minute of IDPA or bad guy. And, the recoil is SOFT! Bumping
the powder charge up to 5.2 or 5.4 will get you close to the 165,000 power factor with not too much of an
increase the recoil impulse. If making major is your goal you know what you are doing, I assume.
Almost as soft as the 4.3/4.4gr. Clays load, is 5.0gr of Winchester WST super target, again behind
the Berry’s HBRN bullet. With a velocity of 770fps, this load was also reliable in my guns with 16 pound
springs.
I have used a charge of 5.4gr. of Winchester 231 with a 200gr. H&G 68 as my practice load for IPSC/
IDPA for many years and, although it is not a major load, even it was getting pretty hard on the old wrists
and elbows. I started this project by just substituting the Berrys HBRN for the lead SWC and did notice a
slight reduction in recoil. Velocity of the 185gr. HBRN over 5.4 of W231 is 811fps.. As mentioned above,
reducing the W231 charges did not work out very well.
Is my Geezer load the final answer in a light recoiling 45ACP load? I think not, as the bullseye shooters
have been “loading light” for years. Maybe we’ll here from one of them. For now though, I’ll be loading
Berrys’ 185grain HBRN over a charge of 4.3/4.4gr. of Hodgdons’ Clays and once again this old Geezer will
enjoy shooting the great 45ACP.
 
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It wouldn't be my first choice, but a 185gr SWC @775fps should work pretty well. I load 200gr SWC's to about the same velocity and they shoot great in my 45's. I nudge them along with either Bullseye or RedDot.
 
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