Sean Smith
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Maybe Delta, MEUSOC, FBI HRT/SWAT, LAPD SWAT, and assorted other folks just know less about picking a weapon than you do?
The .45 makes a comeback during the war on terrorism
- Thread starter Drizzt
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Maybe Delta, MEUSOC, FBI HRT/SWAT, LAPD SWAT, and assorted other folks just know less about picking a weapon than you do?
Uh......MIMb....er....KIMbers, huh?
Uh-oh....
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73716
Uh-oh....
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73716
BluesBear
member
While it is true that PPB is pulling all of their .45acp Glocks from service, the "span of 3 years" quote is, in fact, not accurate.
Lobotomy Boy
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Double Maduro, I reread the threads you cite and found a little bit of factual information and a lot of rumors and innuendo.
Regarding the factual information, the following appeared in a thread entitled "I may just have to sell my Glock 21":
Latest from the NLETS wire - G21 and Fed ammo
Sent 3/4
Request National Broadcast
Per PPB training, please read and dissiminate the following national teletype:
*****SAFETY INFORMATION*****
Portland Police Bureau advises all law enforcement agencies of two incidents of catastrophic failure during firearms training. Both incidents involved Glock Model 21 (45) and Federal 230 Hi-Shok practice ammunition. The failure is described as follows:
Both officers stated no noticeable differences upon firing. Both handguns has (sic) casings expand and failed to extract. The gases escaped by blowing a hole through the side of the caseing (sic) tearing away the bottom half of the barrel at the locking lugs, bending them downward at approximately 30 degree angle. The gases continued throught (sic) the trigger housing and magazine well, destroying both components completely. Additionally the upper was separated from the lower, blowing each upper several feet forward of the firing position. Both officers suffered only minor injuries from shrapnel type debris. PPB is temporarily suspending all use of Federal 230 practice ammo pending investigation.
Any agencies with like incidents please contact Sgt. Mike Lee at Portland Police Bureau training 503-823-0820 or 793-9389.
Fact: Both Glock KBs occurred when using the same ammo, from a maker with a history of quality control problems.
A couple of weeks later the following news item appeared. I don't know the source, but it is in one of the threads you cite:
03-13-04
PORTLAND - Portland Police Chief Derrick Foxworth has ordered a recall of .45-caliber Glock Model 21 firearms, weapons carried by 230 Portland officers.
His order comes after two of the guns exploded in the hands of two separate officers during training this month. Neither of the officers was seriously injured.
"We don't want a reoccurrence of this happening again," Foxworth said. "It's the prudent thing to do."
The Portland Police Bureau at first thought the problem was caused by an ammunition malfunction. After the second explosion, the bureau's training division did further analysis and determined the explosions may have been caused by a defect in the weapon or a design problem.
Police will switch to 9 mm handguns. They are negotiating with officials at Georgia-based Glock to replace the .45-caliber weapons with 9 mm handguns at no cost.
Because the .45-caliber Glock is popular among law enforcement, the Portland police training officers sent a teletype to agencies nationwide. They heard back from several, including agencies in Florida and Texas, that had similar problems.
Fact: Both PPB Glock 21 KBs occurred within the same month using the same brand and type of ammo.
The reason I said you were perpetuating a rumor is because you said, "These can't be attributed to the same lot of ammo as they happened over a span of 3 years." You diverge from fact when you say "a span of 3 years." You also have no basis for stating that this can't be attributed to the same lot of ammo. While I can't prove it was, someone claiming to have inside information but requesting anonymity said that it was indeed the same lot of ammo in the threat from which I pulled the above quotes. Since the PPB admitted it was the same type and same brand of ammo and that the KBs occurred within the same month, the odds are that the anonymous insider from Portland was correct and that it was the same lot of ammo.
Now do you see how facts mutate when they are tossed into the Internet gossip mill?
Regarding the factual information, the following appeared in a thread entitled "I may just have to sell my Glock 21":
Latest from the NLETS wire - G21 and Fed ammo
Sent 3/4
Request National Broadcast
Per PPB training, please read and dissiminate the following national teletype:
*****SAFETY INFORMATION*****
Portland Police Bureau advises all law enforcement agencies of two incidents of catastrophic failure during firearms training. Both incidents involved Glock Model 21 (45) and Federal 230 Hi-Shok practice ammunition. The failure is described as follows:
Both officers stated no noticeable differences upon firing. Both handguns has (sic) casings expand and failed to extract. The gases escaped by blowing a hole through the side of the caseing (sic) tearing away the bottom half of the barrel at the locking lugs, bending them downward at approximately 30 degree angle. The gases continued throught (sic) the trigger housing and magazine well, destroying both components completely. Additionally the upper was separated from the lower, blowing each upper several feet forward of the firing position. Both officers suffered only minor injuries from shrapnel type debris. PPB is temporarily suspending all use of Federal 230 practice ammo pending investigation.
Any agencies with like incidents please contact Sgt. Mike Lee at Portland Police Bureau training 503-823-0820 or 793-9389.
Fact: Both Glock KBs occurred when using the same ammo, from a maker with a history of quality control problems.
A couple of weeks later the following news item appeared. I don't know the source, but it is in one of the threads you cite:
03-13-04
PORTLAND - Portland Police Chief Derrick Foxworth has ordered a recall of .45-caliber Glock Model 21 firearms, weapons carried by 230 Portland officers.
His order comes after two of the guns exploded in the hands of two separate officers during training this month. Neither of the officers was seriously injured.
"We don't want a reoccurrence of this happening again," Foxworth said. "It's the prudent thing to do."
The Portland Police Bureau at first thought the problem was caused by an ammunition malfunction. After the second explosion, the bureau's training division did further analysis and determined the explosions may have been caused by a defect in the weapon or a design problem.
Police will switch to 9 mm handguns. They are negotiating with officials at Georgia-based Glock to replace the .45-caliber weapons with 9 mm handguns at no cost.
Because the .45-caliber Glock is popular among law enforcement, the Portland police training officers sent a teletype to agencies nationwide. They heard back from several, including agencies in Florida and Texas, that had similar problems.
Fact: Both PPB Glock 21 KBs occurred within the same month using the same brand and type of ammo.
The reason I said you were perpetuating a rumor is because you said, "These can't be attributed to the same lot of ammo as they happened over a span of 3 years." You diverge from fact when you say "a span of 3 years." You also have no basis for stating that this can't be attributed to the same lot of ammo. While I can't prove it was, someone claiming to have inside information but requesting anonymity said that it was indeed the same lot of ammo in the threat from which I pulled the above quotes. Since the PPB admitted it was the same type and same brand of ammo and that the KBs occurred within the same month, the odds are that the anonymous insider from Portland was correct and that it was the same lot of ammo.
Now do you see how facts mutate when they are tossed into the Internet gossip mill?
Double Maduro
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- 1,125
Blues Bear and Lobotomy boy,
Yeah, ya got me!!
The failures didn't happen over a period of 3 years. It was actually 7 years.
Here is a referrence to more data.
http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/ppb.html
The pertinent part;
__________________________________________________________
The training staff withdrew the practice ammunition, but further study revealed more serious problems. A records check also showed a similar event occurred in 1997.
____________________________________________________________
I remembered the Oregonian article mentioning the earlier incident and thought it was only 3 years earlier. Imagine the egg on my face when I found out it was actually 7 years. This seems to reinforce my contention that it wasn't the same batch of ammo.
So there.
DM
Yeah, ya got me!!
The failures didn't happen over a period of 3 years. It was actually 7 years.
Here is a referrence to more data.
http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/ppb.html
The pertinent part;
__________________________________________________________
The training staff withdrew the practice ammunition, but further study revealed more serious problems. A records check also showed a similar event occurred in 1997.
____________________________________________________________
I remembered the Oregonian article mentioning the earlier incident and thought it was only 3 years earlier. Imagine the egg on my face when I found out it was actually 7 years. This seems to reinforce my contention that it wasn't the same batch of ammo.
So there.
DM
Double Maduro
Member
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- 1,125
By the way, I don't recognise rumors that are started by anonymous sources.
I won't repeat them and choose to give them all the weight they deserve.
NONE.
DM
I won't repeat them and choose to give them all the weight they deserve.
NONE.
DM
My take on Kimbers...
I have owned exactly one.
It was a Custom Match Target that cost me about $1000.
It was not as reliable as a handgun costing that much, or even half that much, should have been.
My brother's $129 Makarov has already beaten its record.
When push comes to shove, I would take my SIG over a Kimber every time.
Just my .02.
I have owned exactly one.
It was a Custom Match Target that cost me about $1000.
It was not as reliable as a handgun costing that much, or even half that much, should have been.
My brother's $129 Makarov has already beaten its record.
When push comes to shove, I would take my SIG over a Kimber every time.
Just my .02.
Mil Novecientos Once
Member
Overpenetration?
Picture deleted by moderator - DEFINITELY not High Road material. Please remember we have kids reading here, as well as adults.
Picture deleted by moderator - DEFINITELY not High Road material. Please remember we have kids reading here, as well as adults.
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45R
Member
ewwww thats a weeee bit uncalled for.
BluesBear
member
That is just gross.
And definately NOT High Road material.
And definately NOT High Road material.
Grunt
Member
Well, I must say that I do feel rather guilty having looked at that picture and not having paid for admission.
Mil Novecientos Once
Member
A picture speaks louder than words.
C'mon guys I'm Just trying to make a point and what is better than a picture to back up my ideas.
AFAIK this forum is a place in which grown adults can exchange ideas and discuss different ponts of views.
Master Blaster
Member
I will have to agree and disagree on that one.
It matters to anyone who has a frame mounted sighting system, such as a red dot or a laser. Hopefully I dont have to explain why.
If you get the chance handle an ED Brown, LES Baer, Wilson, Rock River, or other high end custom .45 and you will find a very tight slide to frame fit just like a kimber.
It means that you can get good accuracy with a frame mounted sighting system (Every one loves those cool rails on the GSR and the TLE R etc)
It also means less wear on all of the parts escepially the barrel feet, and the link.
If you can produce a reliable pistol with a tight frame to slide fit its a good thing.
If I want to reach out farther than I can see, I use a rahfle. Thanks!
Master Blaster
Member
Then Knock yourself out and buy a Colt with a sloppy fit.
There are a considerable number of folks who do want a tight fit.
If you want a custom gun from any of the above makers be sure to ask for a sloppy fit cause thats not how they make their guns.
BTW I like iron sights on my guns no doo dads for me either.
Sean Smith
Member
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- 4,925
Lots of folks like to smoke, too. Doesn't mean their preference is wise.
Anyone who knows how the 1911 actually works knows that the objective benefits of a tight slide-to-frame fit are negligible for most practical applications. Also note that the tightest of the semi-custom guns are also known to be occasionally unreliable out of the box prior to being broken in with a case of hardball. See some of the expensive parts of 1911forum.com for details. Most would consider out-of-the box unreliability undesireable, but a few consider it a virtue due to the power of marketing. Of course, there is a difference between a showpiece or a game gun and a practical weapon.
"Sloppy" is relative. The original Colt Government Models and Colt military 1911s weren't sloppy, they were fairly snug... without binding. They are only seen as being sloppy now because they've been shot for 90+ years. Even in a purpose-built bullseye gun, the difference in accuracy between that fit (snug but smooth in operation) and and a gun so tight you can't cycle it by hand unaided is vanishingly small. On the other hand, a gun that rattles when you shake it doesn't really do you any good, even in bad environment reliability, but it doesn't really hurt you like tightness fetishists claim, either.
Browns and Wilsons tend to be on the snug side, but not so ridiculously tight that they aren't smooth in operation. Les Baers and Rock River Arms tend to be at the extreme edge of tightness that still (usually) allows function out of the box. Kimbers vary from fairly snug to crazy tight, Colts on the loose side, Springfields all over the map.
My 1911s aren't sloppy, though a new-production 01991 I had was a little loose (if no baby rattle like Colt bashers whine about). It was also more reliable and just as accurate as my older Kimber Classic Stainless Target model. My custom 1911s have always been what I'd call "snug but smooth," they have no perceptible play but don't bind up or interefere with function.
Tightness is nice right up until your gun quits working in its intended environment. At that point you are just making excuses and trying to look cool in front of your friends by bragging on how "custom" your gun is.
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Penforhire
Member
Maybe that $1M software includes some operational/MRP software like SAP-Lite?
To the fellow touting the virtues of 9mm +P+ over .45ACP- your missing some facts.
Lets start with the fact you are comparing +P+ ammunition to standard. There are a handfull of +P factory .45 loads (not even +P+ yet) that surpass 500 ft'lbs of energy with relative ease. Nothin' to scoff at.
Now, when using +P+ as an example for 9mm you would need to use something along the lines of the .45 SMC and possibly .45 Super loads to have a fair comparison. These loads push 600 ft-lbs.
And your expansion argument is, well, seriously flawed. Most of the ammunition tests I've read (including those of the FBI) show the .45 HP's expanding past .70" frequently.
Ardent
Lets start with the fact you are comparing +P+ ammunition to standard. There are a handfull of +P factory .45 loads (not even +P+ yet) that surpass 500 ft'lbs of energy with relative ease. Nothin' to scoff at.
Now, when using +P+ as an example for 9mm you would need to use something along the lines of the .45 SMC and possibly .45 Super loads to have a fair comparison. These loads push 600 ft-lbs.
And your expansion argument is, well, seriously flawed. Most of the ammunition tests I've read (including those of the FBI) show the .45 HP's expanding past .70" frequently.
Ardent
tommytrauma
Member
Wax,
I consider both real life events and ballistics tables in formulating my opinions. The last GSW patient I treated was shot twice in the torso with a .45. He ran a block and a half before collapsing, and was not thrown on his rear end when he was shot. Falling as a result of being shot is either due to a CNS hit (where a 9mm will put someone down just fine) or a psychological reaction to being shot. People have been put on their butts by hits from a .22, and stayed standing after multiple rifle hits. Your repeated statements that a .45 will put someone on their butt make me believe that you're basing your opinions on lore and legend rather than any hard findings, either anecdotal or empirical.
The simple fact is that shot placement plays a much larger role in handgun stopping ability than caliber does. I own three 1911 configuration .45s, and one 9mm. I am much more comfortable with my ability to place multiple fast, accurate shots with the 9 than I am with any of the .45s. Thus, I prefer the 9 for defensive use. Anyone who thinks someone who carries a 9 with quality ammo is under-armed (no shoulder holster cracks, please) compared to someone carrying a .45 is basing their opinions on men’s adventure novels and gun store talk, not ‘real life’
I consider both real life events and ballistics tables in formulating my opinions. The last GSW patient I treated was shot twice in the torso with a .45. He ran a block and a half before collapsing, and was not thrown on his rear end when he was shot. Falling as a result of being shot is either due to a CNS hit (where a 9mm will put someone down just fine) or a psychological reaction to being shot. People have been put on their butts by hits from a .22, and stayed standing after multiple rifle hits. Your repeated statements that a .45 will put someone on their butt make me believe that you're basing your opinions on lore and legend rather than any hard findings, either anecdotal or empirical.
The simple fact is that shot placement plays a much larger role in handgun stopping ability than caliber does. I own three 1911 configuration .45s, and one 9mm. I am much more comfortable with my ability to place multiple fast, accurate shots with the 9 than I am with any of the .45s. Thus, I prefer the 9 for defensive use. Anyone who thinks someone who carries a 9 with quality ammo is under-armed (no shoulder holster cracks, please) compared to someone carrying a .45 is basing their opinions on men’s adventure novels and gun store talk, not ‘real life’
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DonGlock26
Member
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2003
- Messages
- 259
The M-9's woes were largely traced to after-market magazines purchased by a military, that never thought they would have to use them. I wish I had a dollar for everytime I've read someone state the military doesn't really use pistols. I've seen plenty of M-9's used in the WOT.
I qualified in the U.S. Army with the 1911. The sights were crap compared to the M-9. The passing score was to put a certain number of holes on the paper! I know, I would have done better with a M-9. I do question an open-topped pistol design for ground troops, but that's water under the bridge.
All handguns suck at stopping humans, but they are handy. Put the holes in the heart or head and drive on. The 12ga. shotgun was the only weapon that excelled in the P.I. insurrection. That's why we used them in W.W. I trench warfare.
I qualified in the U.S. Army with the 1911. The sights were crap compared to the M-9. The passing score was to put a certain number of holes on the paper! I know, I would have done better with a M-9. I do question an open-topped pistol design for ground troops, but that's water under the bridge.
All handguns suck at stopping humans, but they are handy. Put the holes in the heart or head and drive on. The 12ga. shotgun was the only weapon that excelled in the P.I. insurrection. That's why we used them in W.W. I trench warfare.
cerberus
member
I sure like my Kimbers
Sold my 92 and have a Glock23 and three Kimbers. I really like my Kimbers.If I had thought there was a problem I would not have bought the three.
Sold my 92 and have a Glock23 and three Kimbers. I really like my Kimbers.If I had thought there was a problem I would not have bought the three.
Harold Mayo
Member
Interesting speculation on Franks' sidearm. I have it on good authority that Schartzkopf carries an older lightweight Colt Commander.
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