No pistol is "good enough for bears"

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jamesinalaska

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I'm fortunate enough that my job allows me to travel around my state (Alaska) quite a bit, and sometimes, on longer projects, I get to take my family with me. A few years ago the cards fell just right and we managed to get ourselves sent to Kodiak Island for a spell while I worked a lengthy contract.

We always have the greatest times on those working vacations, and Kodiak was no different. On my days off my wife anf I would pack up the rental car and set off for a new trail to follow or a beach to explore. And (to keep this relevant to a gun forum) at that time, I was rather fond of carrying a G20 on my hip for "bear protection", or "just in case" on those picnics of ours.

One sunny day (unusual for Kodiak), we lit out on one of our hikes along a beach well away from town, where I figured out in short-order, exactly how worthless a handgun truly is in a realistic "bear" situation.

We left the car at a wide spot on the highway and walked a few hundred yards down a narrow trail through the alders to a section of beach reported to be good for beachcombing. Fortunately it was low tide and perfect for finding seashells without trouble, so we ambled around and started our way towards a wrecked and rusted tramper around a point another mile or so up the beach. Of course once we got to the derelick tramper, me and my oldest boy just had to play pirate and find a way to climb up onto the deck (I mean this is what fathers and sons do, right) but the mommy and the littler ones didn't climb up; they were going to wait for us below.

My thought was that they were going to wait for us by the boat - but they didnt. Instead they walked further up the beach, another 80 yards maybe, to a little stream dumping into the gulf there.

When me and my boy finished exploring the deck (and no, we don't go down into the holds of wrecks like that nor do we go into old mine shafts) and went to climb down from the tramper, I noticed my family up the beach and near the steam. "Oh No. Please no." I muttered to myself.

The problem was that it was salmon season. The Pinks were spawning and bears will hang out close to freshwater streams at those times. And the big bears get to chose tbeir spots first, you see, that's how it works in their world, and if there was any location on that isolated beach where a big bear would have been hanging about, it would have been right there, where that stream empties into the ocean, where Pinks are easiest to catch, and where my wife and kids were.

Thankfully it wasn't a salmon stream, just runoff from the snowpack. I'll never forget though, the dread that came across my mind when I first thought there could be trouble. It was only for a few seconds but unforgetable all the same.

I'll also never forget my thoughts of how worthless that god-damned G20 was to me too. If trouble had stepped out of those alder thickets and I had been back at the tramper, there is no way I could have shot that pistol -or any pistol- for any good effect whatsoever. Too far away, and not enough power in the cartridge to change anything.

I later traded that G20 in at one of the sporting goods shops for a 12 guage semi-auto slug gun and a couple handfuls of slugs. Later still I sold that 12 guage to a fellow to make a downpayment on a stainless 45-70. This rifle I have kept. At 80 yards I am certain I can aim my 45-70 and hit what I want, I can't do that with a G20. And better still, a 45-70 bullet can instantly make a big animal change its mind about what it is doing. (It might not kill her, but it will immediately change her behavior) I don't believe anymore that a 10mm can do likewise, even if close.
 
I think that your firearms for bear assessment is correct however, on the G20 carry days it was much better than a knife.
 
The fact of the matter is that you are well armed against a bear with a 9x19 hi-cap pistol like a Glock 17 or S&W M&P loaded with ball ammo. Ammoland ran a report on bears versus pistols, 97% effective. Obviously a long gun is better for long range shooting. And yes I realize that this goes against what has been taught for decades.
 
So, no actual experience other than a bad thought?

You made the right choice and then sold it for a lever gun, but you also made it seem like you made the choice because of an actual experience, not just a short thought of terror from a lack of situational awareness.

Still, wasn’t fun, was it?:)

80 yards is a long way when a Bear is three times faster than you are!

Now, change your Glock to a 460S&W, Firing a four hundred grain bullet at about the same speed as your 45-70 and suddenly handguns are viable again.
Although both are nearly a thousand foot pounds less energy than the 12gauge with a 635 grain slug...:eek:
That auto loads...


Is your son old enough for carry? More guns is the answer!:thumbup:
 
This sounds like an abject failure of situational awareness on the part of both adults. Fortunately for you, you got away with it.

If you can have the rifle in your hands the moment you need it, it's obviously better. If it's 3 feet away leaning on a tree, it's probably useless.

We carry pistols, because we can carry pistols.
 
Demi-human said:
So, no actual experience other than a bad thought?
.....
Click to expand...

First thing that came into my mind.

Being one that has been "in harms way" I guess I would say, and to echo what everyone else said....on the hip is better then against the side of the boat you played on. Do you really think you would have carried that shot gun through the boat....do you think you would have been effective at 80 yards with a slug gun, you did not say if it was rifled or not.

It sounds like you knew what dangers are in the area and yet you did not inform your wife to keep close....and sometimes it takes reminding I would think. Even soldiers need reminding I have found out if things are calm for a long while then things change.

I have never been around a bear or in bear country, but would think I would rather have an automatic that I know will run over a BFR, or long gun I might set down to take a photo or play with the kids and set the gun down. That magazine, and the ability to reload it fast I think would be more handy....but again I know nothing about bears, and base this all on my experience on two way firing ranges.
 
Saying “no pistol is good enough for bears” because of the situation you described is kinda ridiculous. The verified reports prove your statement to be false.

The fact that you were worried that your family, 80 yards away, were unprotected from the pistol on your side is true, but that’s not the guns fault.

I agree that situational awareness was missing, as were a clear understanding of the possible dangers.

Assuming you can handle your G20, odds are you were still relatively safe. The folks 80 yards away, probably not so much.
 
I'm glad to hear your concerns were in the 'what if' category. This time. No arguement with the 45-70. I would be curious what locals or professional guides in the area carry, long guns and hand guns, to deal with bears.

Jeff
 
jamesinalaska said:
Later still I sold that 12 guage to a fellow to make a downpayment on a stainless 45-70. This rifle I have kept. At 80 yards I am certain I can aim my 45-70 and hit what I want, I can't do that with a G20. And better still, a 45-70 bullet can instantly make a big animal change its mind about what it is doing. (It might not kill her, but it will immediately change her behavior) I don't believe anymore that a 10mm can do likewise, even if close.
Click to expand...

I want to make one last comment, and this is not to dig on you at all....it is really a learning experience for all.

You traded that shot gun for the 45-70....and it can change the big animals mind....well if you hit it. I can tell you that what you can do on the range means nothing when the blood starts pumping.....do you think you would be calm cool and collected with a big bear about to......to your wife and "little ones". Unless you have been there you really can't answer that question.....

The real takeaway from your story is the need for training of the ones you are with if you know the dangers of the area you are in.....and refreshing that training several times...with a wife you might get an yes dear I know....but you really need to be firm with this.

You can never replicate what you would do in a save my family type stressed encounter, but you can put yourself under some pressure by doing different "gun games" with other groups....do a three gun, shoot some plates, even do some slow things like a CMP game, with others around....thinking they are watching you it does put you in a different mind set....if that is calm to you do something that makes you move around, grab your gun from a table...shoot from different positions....you really learn a lot about you and your skills doing things like this....and it will help you if something bad like this comes up....as well as your general gun handling skills and such.
 
Seems like what happened, is the whole family was relying on you to protect them. And then the family group split up, and you weren't in a position to do that anymore.

You say your G20 wouldn't cover the situation, but a 50 BMG wouldn't cover it either if they were 80 yards away, but behind something. So maybe if your wife's going to wander off in Kodiak country, she should have a gun and know how to use it.
 
Seems to me this was a learning experience and you and your family learned the lesson well. Easy for others to be critical after the fact. We put ourselves at risk every day. Not just when walking around in bear country. Being aware of those risks around us and being observant of our surroundings and situation is crucial, when walking down/crossing a street or driving a car. Not everyone is lucky enough to learn from their mistakes. Not every one is willing or intelligent enough to learn from their mistakes. You were both.
 
Read through the thread and thought of a few "puckered up" moments that I've had myself (mine mostly involved two legged animals -but I digress..). I've only visited Alaska once, the MatSu area where my brother lives a full bore homestead lifestyle (for more than 40 years now all told). Where he is, the interior bears (not as big as the brownies, but still a danger..) have learned to associate a rifle shot with a feeding opportunity - so you never hunt alone, period. When moose hunting he's on foot in timber along hill sides mostly where there's lots of alder thickets. As a result he's described more than one time when he could hear a big bear coming - but wouldn't be able to see it until it was very close... Fortunately after more than a few encounters - much too close, he's never had to shoot one. His rifle of choice? A 375 H&H (he has three of them). That's one step smaller than an elephant gun from what I could see. He pointed out that your best bet if it's all on the line is to try to break down something coming at you, with his first shot at the shoulder, then the second center of mass, etc. That rifle is a bit more than you need for moose -and certainly more than is needed for caribou (this would be a great time for Caribou, himself, to chime in...). But at close quarters with a bear wanting your kill it might be exactly what's needed...

Pistols? There's a place for them up there as well since if you're working around your property - or just making a trip to the outhouse... you're not likely to carry a rifle or a 12ga. with you all the time - but a big bore sidearm - that's something you can strap on each morning and not even notice it all day long - until that one time when it might be needed. Not ideal but certainly much much better than trying to outrun something that can run down an elk from behind...
 
I'm sorry, but your basic argument is that you needed a bigger gun because you imagined something that didn't happen? OK. I guess. What will you do if you imagine something that might happen that includes your new .45-70 is leaning against a tree 12 yards away while you pee on a bush?
 
I've been entirely too close to an inland grizzly (by accident) in the lower 48, and they are intimidating animals. But I'm pretty confident a well constructed 10mm bullet would do the job if you know how to shoot. But despite being the same species, coastal browns are much larger due to their diet. They just get bigger. Kodiaks are enormous. The record was over 1500 lbs.

Personally I think the first issue was going to Kodiak Island with nothing but a Glock 20. For animals that are on top of the food chain, huge, and really fast, that isn't enough gun. A big bore magnum revolver would've been a much better choice. There is a big difference between a 10mm and a 500 magnum. So I don't think a blanket statement that all handguns are inadequate is a fair statement. Not bringing enough gun was the OP's shortcoming, and stating that all handguns are inadequate is a way of passing blame.

Situational awareness, and clearly communication was an issue, as the wifey had no business wandering away in the first place. Maybe using a rusted out ship as a jungle gym while there was potentially dangerous animals in the area was a bad idea too. That's too distracting.

I think switching to a more powerful cartridge in a firearm with greater range is a good idea when talking about animals that size, but having an understanding of the environment and better situational awareness is more than half the battle here.
 
So - in point of fact, we're talking about range and not *standard* defensive scenarios of being personally charged.

I myself have experienced 3 faux charges by grizzlies and aside from blood and snot being involved - feel mine is a VERY valid point of view.

Being personally charged, a long-gun repeater of ANY caliber is likely to yield - at best - 2 and with extreme luck AND skill, 3 rounds of whatever as opposed to unloading most of a magazine or cylinder from a pistol.

Had you not allowed your family to be separated from the defensive weapon, I feel you'd still be better armed with a passel of 10mm than maybe 1-2 rounds of .45-70 considering how poorly placed stress-induced rifle/carbine rounds can be.

Make no mistake - I understand .45-70 is better in an all-things-being-equal scenario but when a Griz is shaking your earth.... almost NOTHING is *equal*.

Todd.
 
In that scenario the wife needs some form of bear deterrent also. A lever action is going to be not much of an advantage when that bear is charging and you've only got seconds to react. If that first shot on the charging bear isn't on target, there's a good chance it'll be on top of your family by the time you get ready for the second shot. And that assumes you can even got a clear shot to begin with.
 
The incident provided a moment of clarity, and that's a good thing. Be thankful for that moment.

Though I am completely unburdened by any actual experience, ApacheCo Todd's comment seems right. Bears are fast.

I have wondered if the 458 Socom might replace the 45-70 as the favored bear medicine? It's design intent was to provide "sorta 45-70" performance in a semi-auto.
 
jamesinalaska said:
I'm fortunate enough that my job allows me to travel around my state (Alaska) quite a bit, and sometimes, on longer projects, I get to take my family with me. A few years ago the cards fell just right and we managed to get ourselves sent to Kodiak Island for a spell while I worked a lengthy contract.

We always have the greatest times on those working vacations, and Kodiak was no different. On my days off my wife anf I would pack up the rental car and set off for a new trail to follow or a beach to explore. And (to keep this relevant to a gun forum) at that time, I was rather fond of carrying a G20 on my hip for "bear protection", or "just in case" on those picnics of ours.

One sunny day (unusual for Kodiak), we lit out on one of our hikes along a beach well away from town, where I figured out in short-order, exactly how worthless a handgun truly is in a realistic "bear" situation.

We left the car at a wide spot on the highway and walked a few hundred yards down a narrow trail through the alders to a section of beach reported to be good for beachcombing. Fortunately it was low tide and perfect for finding seashells without trouble, so we ambled around and started our way towards a wrecked and rusted tramper around a point another mile or so up the beach. Of course once we got to the derelick tramper, me and my oldest boy just had to play pirate and find a way to climb up onto the deck (I mean this is what fathers and sons do, right) but the mommy and the littler ones didn't climb up; they were going to wait for us below.

My thought was that they were going to wait for us by the boat - but they didnt. Instead they walked further up the beach, another 80 yards maybe, to a little stream dumping into the gulf there.

When me and my boy finished exploring the deck (and no, we don't go down into the holds of wrecks like that nor do we go into old mine shafts) and went to climb down from the tramper, I noticed my family up the beach and near the steam. "Oh No. Please no." I muttered to myself.

The problem was that it was salmon season. The Pinks were spawning and bears will hang out close to freshwater streams at those times. And the big bears get to chose tbeir spots first, you see, that's how it works in their world, and if there was any location on that isolated beach where a big bear would have been hanging about, it would have been right there, where that stream empties into the ocean, where Pinks are easiest to catch, and where my wife and kids were.

Thankfully it wasn't a salmon stream, just runoff from the snowpack. I'll never forget though, the dread that came across my mind when I first thought there could be trouble. It was only for a few seconds but unforgetable all the same.

I'll also never forget my thoughts of how worthless that god-damned G20 was to me too. If trouble had stepped out of those alder thickets and I had been back at the tramper, there is no way I could have shot that pistol -or any pistol- for any good effect whatsoever. Too far away, and not enough power in the cartridge to change anything.

I later traded that G20 in at one of the sporting goods shops for a 12 guage semi-auto slug gun and a couple handfuls of slugs. Later still I sold that 12 guage to a fellow to make a downpayment on a stainless 45-70. This rifle I have kept. At 80 yards I am certain I can aim my 45-70 and hit what I want, I can't do that with a G20. And better still, a 45-70 bullet can instantly make a big animal change its mind about what it is doing. (It might not kill her, but it will immediately change her behavior) I don't believe anymore that a 10mm can do likewise, even if close.
Click to expand...

HUH, the OP's heading and the ACTUAL STORY have nothing to do with if a Glock 10MM is good enough to stop a bear.

First of all,I am sorry that you did not train for "THE" moment that we all fear = that of having a loved one in dire danger and us ABLE to take that shot.

Next I am to question if you just took that Glock 10MM out to plink with ?.

My training has been to treat each shot as a shot to END A THREAT !.

And I also have a Glock 20 that I can shoot fairly well enough at 25 yards to make me believe I can take that shot.

Also at well beyond 25 yards [ out to 100 ] I can put rounds on a target as small as even a black bear,thereby making him/her rethink their threat level and choose me.

Sorry if you think I am picking on you,this would be addressed to any who posted as you did.

IF for a nanosecond I was sure there would be an attack from ANY critter ----- I would strongly endeavor to have a MUCH.MUCH better solution that a carried pistol.

Fear makes you think the worst,and it appears you did just that.

Your whole "event" was in your mind and not due to the lack of firepower,imnsho.
 
Interesting points of view in this thread seem to be reasonable to me even when they seem contradictory. That is because there is no definitive response to the statement that "No pistol is good enough for bears." That is a clear cut declaration. But is it factual? No. I will make this statement: Any handgun is capable of taking down a bear. You could shoot a 44 magnum through a bear's outer ear and it will not do as much damage as a 22LR in the bear's eye. A 9mm in the face of a bear is going to be better than not being able to get a shot off with a rifle. Bears run at 35 MPH. That is just under 51 feet per second. How fast are you with the rifle compared to the pistol. Bear attacks do not generally occur at long distances. They mostly happen close up. A bear 100 feet away from you will be on top of you in three seconds.

Personally, I think the best defense against any bear is bear spray. Carry it in a chest holster or on a pack strap holster and you have a quickly accessible defense that can reach out to 35 feet and produce a wide cloud of 2% OC that will surely slow the bear down if not stop it or turn it away. Now you can have time to get the gun ready if you might need it.

There is a reason what National Park and Forest rangers carry bear spray. it works better than a gun. Their experiences proves that. Of course, nothing is guaranteed to work and so someday you might get the bear and someday the bear might get you. It is about odds, and bear spray is the best first line of defense in a bear attack. Everyone able to spray it should be carrying a canister in bear country. I mean everyone I the party unless they are to young to use it.

I live in PA, and I have hiked in black bear county for 30 years. I know black bears are wimpy compared to their big cousins. But when a 500 to 600 point male makes an aggressive charge it might a well be a grizzly. It can kill you just as fast. In 30 years I have encountered a few females making defensive charges intended to stop not hurt me. Defense is simple back out of the scene with bear spray ready. But when a male makes an aggressive charge it is another thing. In the two I experienced I never had to draw my duty size pistol. Bear spray simply worked. I stood fast and they ran.
 
scaatylobo said:
Also at well beyond 25 yards [ out to 100 ] I can put rounds on a target as small as even a black bear,thereby making him/her rethink their threat level and choose me.
Click to expand...


Before the mauling begins, you should probably discuss your plan with the bear 1st to make sure it's on board with how your plan plays out.
 
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