Trijicon RMR red dot on handgun
- Thread starter Balrog
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I have. It's the only RDS I'd even consider putting on a pistol that I'm gonna trust my life to. Been using Trijicon for a long time and it will never let you down. If anything can/will survive being dropped on its head, it's the RMR. That having been said, using an RDS on a handgun is different. It affects the way you bring the gun up and what begins to feel "right" the more time you spend practicing with it. In other words, you become dependent on it.
On the other hand, if you can deal with the additional bulk, they are FAST. I would suggest that you go with some suppressor height open sights as well. They will help the transition to the RDS by allowing you to use the front sight as a reference to find the dot until it becomes natural to you. Of course, I don't know what you're putting this on, so I'm just assuming that you won't be able to get the RMR low enough to use the stock sights.
On the other hand, if you can deal with the additional bulk, they are FAST. I would suggest that you go with some suppressor height open sights as well. They will help the transition to the RDS by allowing you to use the front sight as a reference to find the dot until it becomes natural to you. Of course, I don't know what you're putting this on, so I'm just assuming that you won't be able to get the RMR low enough to use the stock sights.
zaitcev
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I think RMR 2 only makes sense if you deploy to Syria. It's a premium priced, robust and basically indestructible red dot. Although if I were going to war, I would probably choose Aimpoint ACRO P1, for a better mud resistance. Either way, many budget friendly alternatives to RMR exist for the civilian market.
P.S. I have the 1st generation RMR that you must unscrew in order to change the battery. It's a solid sight, just obsolete.
P.P.S. Tony's suggestion to keep irons is crucial, I fully agree. In addition to elimination of the dot hunt, backup irons help in case of a washout when you shoot against a light source, such as low Sun.
P.S. I have the 1st generation RMR that you must unscrew in order to change the battery. It's a solid sight, just obsolete.
P.P.S. Tony's suggestion to keep irons is crucial, I fully agree. In addition to elimination of the dot hunt, backup irons help in case of a washout when you shoot against a light source, such as low Sun.
It's well worth investigating it for oneself. The end result can depend considerably on details such as the mount height and grip. In discussing it with people that teach red-dot specific handgun classes at major-name schools in the US, things like grip-angle can have a big effect on dot-acquisition, but I believe individuals need to see for themselves. If it is not practical to make a major change to the grip of your handgun, be sure to try it on several handguns. If you have trouble with dot-acquisition with a Glock, try a Sig or 1911 or vice-versa. Just don't base your conclusion about dots in general on one handgun type. I know I would certainly switch between a Glock 17 and Sig P320 based on whatever one worked best with a dot. To me, the dot is valuable and the difference between those guns is nothing, but some brand-loyalists will be stuck on logos and looks.
I use one on a revolver and I have found that some grips don't work for me. Specifically, traditional "target" style grips (cokes or ropers) don't have enough surface for my strong-hand thumb to purchase and my npoa ends up too far left and the dot is hard to find. What's happening is my strong-hand trigger finger is putting pressure on the right side of the frame above the trigger guard and the thumb is not able to oppose it. Switch to Hogues or Pachmayers and I find the dot instantly every time.
Because red-dots are less forgiving of errors in npoa, the grip and technique have to be matched to make it work well.
In my opinion, BUIS are usually a mistake. Don't interfere with (clutter) the sight picture. The dots are proven to work, trust them, but don't depend on them. Learn to shoot with the sight occluded in front and other times behind (use tape). Such occlusions will block BUIS too, so learn an alternative technique. If it's an open dot (most besides Acro), also practice occluding (taping) the emitter.
I suggest the SRO or DPP in lieu of the RMR unless you know your gun gets abused. The RMR is more rugged, but the cost of the small sight window is not worth it unless the gun is regularly abused. Very infrequent glass breakage doesn't render you helpless, but a bigger window all-the-time does likely make you more effective. I'll take that tradeoff every time.
I use one on a revolver and I have found that some grips don't work for me. Specifically, traditional "target" style grips (cokes or ropers) don't have enough surface for my strong-hand thumb to purchase and my npoa ends up too far left and the dot is hard to find. What's happening is my strong-hand trigger finger is putting pressure on the right side of the frame above the trigger guard and the thumb is not able to oppose it. Switch to Hogues or Pachmayers and I find the dot instantly every time.
Because red-dots are less forgiving of errors in npoa, the grip and technique have to be matched to make it work well.
In my opinion, BUIS are usually a mistake. Don't interfere with (clutter) the sight picture. The dots are proven to work, trust them, but don't depend on them. Learn to shoot with the sight occluded in front and other times behind (use tape). Such occlusions will block BUIS too, so learn an alternative technique. If it's an open dot (most besides Acro), also practice occluding (taping) the emitter.
I suggest the SRO or DPP in lieu of the RMR unless you know your gun gets abused. The RMR is more rugged, but the cost of the small sight window is not worth it unless the gun is regularly abused. Very infrequent glass breakage doesn't render you helpless, but a bigger window all-the-time does likely make you more effective. I'll take that tradeoff every time.
needmorecowbell
Member
I shot my buddies at the range several times trying to decide if I wanted a handgun with a red dot. I just can’t see a need for it for how I would carry and use as a defensive pistol. Too bulky and awkward for me to holster. I decided to get an AR9 style pistol and red dot instead for trunk/backpack gun
Man, you are tough on buddies.
1KPerDay
Member
Good choice. I have 12,000+ rounds on one on an M&P CORE 9L (a gen 1 RMR) and I had to shim the battery once, and retighten it a couple of times (I didn't degrease the threads before applying blue loc-tite). The R/L adjust has started to wander around a bit, but I marked it with paint and I just turn it back when I notice it's moved off its spot. First battery lasted me longer than 3 years.
I also have one on a G19 that works great also. One is 3.25 MOA and one is 6.5. I got the LED, non-manually-adjustable version. It's always on and auto-adjusts for dark rooms etc.
It was a bit strange when first trying it out, especially if you have a lot of time on traditional pistol irons where you're constantly told to focus hard on the front sight... I have adjusted to the red dot now and it's much faster transitioning from target to target and almost as fast to acquire the dot and fire as with irons.
Definitely get the improved type 2 version if you can afford the small increase in price. You won't have to shim the battery and it's built more with handgun use in mind than the type 1.
I also think you should probably have some backup irons NOT COWITNESSED, but I disagree with those who say to use the irons to find the dot. I say ignore the irons and just focus on a good presentation and focus on the target and the dot appears. Less confusing for your brain, IMO
needmorecowbell
Member
They called me Francis
I use and like the Dual Illumination RMR, as no batteries are needed, and day or night it works great. With a larger moa dot longer range pin point shooting is challenging, but for fast sight acquisition shooting at 25 yds or less I really like it on my G35 .40 S&W.
It's a matter of a few thousand dry fire draws.
If you can train yourself to draw the gun and have the sights already pretty well aligned on the target with iron sights (and anyone can do this - though many people do not), you can train yourself to have the dot generally centered in the window on every draw. It's the same thing.
If you can't index on a person at 10 feet you're gonna loose that fight anyway.
Dots are NOT SLOWER at close range than irons. That is a myth.
Although I did endorse the RMR, IF you're gonna go with a dot sight on your defensive pistol, I opted to stick with the open sights. I am just as fast with those at distances that really matter for self defense (although this could change if I committed to using a RDS); however, I really do like to keep it simple. That's why I prefer Glocks, Kahrs and revolvers.
Still, as the years pass, my eyes are doing what they do, screw you over. I could see making the transition in the next five years or so.
Still, as the years pass, my eyes are doing what they do, screw you over. I could see making the transition in the next five years or so.
You shouldn't ever be "looking for the dot." You don't look for the dot. You look at the target.
And at 10 feet, just the outline of the gun on the target (regardless of sights installed on the gun) should be sufficient with a good index.
That I agree with.
Ergo, the sighting system doesn't matter at 10 feet. So a dot is not slower at 10 feet unless someone is doing it wrong.
People do it wrong all the time, which is why I would recommend keeping it simple with open sights unless you get those 1,000 draws on a regular basis.
I don't worry about ATLDave not finding the dot, I worry about the novice who might look for the dot at 10 feet just out of poor range habits.
I don't worry about ATLDave not finding the dot, I worry about the novice who might look for the dot at 10 feet just out of poor range habits.
Those people are hosed in a gunfight at 10 feet anyway* (including the iron sight novice who is looking for his front sight). I'm not a believer in the idea that people can make themselves safer by just having a gun without having developed skills.
I do NOT think that iron sights are faster or easier for anyone except people who have already put in the work on iron sights, but aren't willing to put in any work on the dot. Other than that, everyone is faster with a dot.
I've seen too many mediocre shooters get more accurate and faster by switching to a dot. It costs more. There is still a higher mechanical failure rate with them. Those are drawbacks. Speed of use, intuitiveness of use, ease of learning... those are advantages to dots, not disadvantages.
*Unless the assailant just turns and runs at the sight of the gun (which is pretty common), in which case it doesn't matter at all what sighting system is used. Or if the gun is loaded with blanks, for that matter.
I would say it is slightly faster from a draw to acquire the first target with iron and then slightly faster and slightly more accurate thereafter with red dot. A larger moa dot makes it easier to acquire, too.
As we age out towards end of life, red dots seem easier to us, because iron sights become harder, with our diminished vision.
And as others have said, for a target 10 feet away, bigger than say, a small steel plate, I wouldn’t use a sight or dot. Just fire when your gun reaches your peripheral vision.
As we age out towards end of life, red dots seem easier to us, because iron sights become harder, with our diminished vision.
And as others have said, for a target 10 feet away, bigger than say, a small steel plate, I wouldn’t use a sight or dot. Just fire when your gun reaches your peripheral vision.
I promise, it's not. Guys shooting iron sights do not, on average, have faster draws than guys shooting dots at USPSA. If anything, the converse is true, though the difference only begins to show with harder shots.
Again, if you never use a dot but have 10,000 draws with irons then, yes, at first the dot will not always be there on the draw. But that's like someone who has never driven a stick shift saying that a stick shift 911 is slower off the line than their Honda Accord with an automatic transmission - just because they stalled the 911 twice.
barnetmill
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Glock 19 with RMR mounted in milled milled slide with co-witness and tau device on end of slide. With my eyes the RMR makes head shots at 25 yards feasible with either hand. Gun does have polished trigger parts and some minor changes in spring wt for striker and connector. Firing pin block for the moment is stock.
Second picture is of it concealed.
Many gunfights do take place at night and at close distances when precise sighted fire is not possible. The red dot is at its best for distances and scenarios where aimed fired is the best response. Even with the RMR the gun can be still pointed when needed at bad breath distances or under low light conditions.
Second picture is of it concealed.
Many gunfights do take place at night and at close distances when precise sighted fire is not possible. The red dot is at its best for distances and scenarios where aimed fired is the best response. Even with the RMR the gun can be still pointed when needed at bad breath distances or under low light conditions.
I play at Steel Challenge. I speak from my personal experience. And from watching others. Seems to me, on average, splits are faster with a dot, not on the draw. Not talking about GM’s here. Do I think it’s possible to become as proficient with a dot on the draw? Sure. I’m working on it, and think I’m close. But for the average guy who goes to the range once every couple of weeks and shoots a hundred rounds, it’s my belief he will be able to acquire the target more consistently, in a defensive situation where he has to draw, with iron sights.
I’m a fan of dots. Every gun I buy these days is dot capable, out of the box. But not all of them have dots.
edit: Steel Challenge (as you probably know), is a drag race. It’s all about speed. Furthest target is probably 35 yards away. Most are closer. A draw of 1.4-1.5 seconds to first shot, that hits the target, is reasonably good. Something in the 1.2’s is pretty good. No hard shots in Steel Challenge. So I agree with you for difficult shots, a red dot will be easier/faster on the draw, with a little bit of practice.
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