I think I’m done with ArmsList for buying and selling.

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JeeperCreeper said:
FFL fees cost money which then makes a fair deal worthless. And when people ghost, they just save you time instead of dragging you along.

I lived in a state that required FFL transfer for handguns. Most shops charge a minimum of $50 for person/person for various reasons.

If I'm selling a used Ruger for $250, a person has no incentive to purchase it as they can get a new one for $300. Basically, it ruined handgun sales on the used market for anything $600 or less.

Now that I live in a state without FFL transfers, I'm not dropping extra coin for a transfer if I find a used gun I want.
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I live in Oregon which requires FFL's for transfers and that costs $50-$60. You hit the nail on the head, the FFL transfer requirement killed used gun sales. Even worse it has push some otherwise law abiding citizens into being felons because of the outrageous transfer fees.
 
JeeperCreeper said:
FFL fees cost money which then makes a fair deal worthless. And when people ghost, they just save you time instead of dragging you along.

I lived in a state that required FFL transfer for handguns. Most shops charge a minimum of $50 for person/person for various reasons.

If I'm selling a used Ruger for $250, a person has no incentive to purchase it as they can get a new one for $300. Basically, it ruined handgun sales on the used market for anything $600 or less.

Now that I live in a state without FFL transfers, I'm not dropping extra coin for a transfer if I find a used gun I want.

Even if you just want to meet there and not do a transfer, the buyer or seller may not know that.

And often when I read ads for guns about "bill of sale with a copy of your ID and CCP", I find those people are hard to deal with and it's not worth the effort. It's like reading "no low balls, I know what I got". Dude already has a defensive attitude, I'm not wasting my time with an ex-hall-monitor who thinks they are an authority.

So that might be the case... You mention FFL and the seller/buyer rolls their eyes cuz they don't wanna deal with extra fees, extra hassles, or a guy who thinks he needs to interrogate the future buyer/seller.

When it comes to selling and buying, people get emotional and there's a sliding scale of happiness between the buyers and sellers.
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I don't get the fees argument because I offer to pay any and all fees all the time whether I'm buying or selling.
 
DeepSouth said:
This, I know a LOT of these people.
They view a 4473 as a direct registration to the ATF, FBI, and every one else in Government. Some of them know it’s not but they don’t trust it to stay that way and ultimately they view it as registration and if you bring it up they’re done talking.
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And posting their gun, serial number included, on the internet under an email that includes their full name isn't just as bad? I don't think I follow that line of logic. Could you expand on that?
 
daniel craig said:
NY. Transfers literally just mean you got to go through an FFL. All the seller has to do is ship it there. The FFL takes care of the rest. Or you meet the person there and the FFL does the rest.
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I hear you! I have bought a couple of weapons from Armslist but I don't even search outside of my state, Oregon (FFL Transfers required). I once made a 12 hour round trip to the other side of the state to buy a Dan Wesson 744 for $600... $660 with transfer fees. I have never tried to purchase an out of state weapon through armslist... without really checking into it that seems like just too much hassle.

There is a gun club near me that shows up at gun shows and will do person to person transfers and only charge the $10 background check fee.
 
daniel craig said:
I don't get the fees argument because I offer to pay any and all fees all the time whether I'm buying or selling.
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It would depend on the situation for me on that. I consider myself a "fair" buyer and seller, so maybe my opinion gives a new perspective.

And I assume since your on the high road, you're probably a pretty even keeled guy.

But normally it's a hassle. And most guys that I've dealt with when they require extra steps that are not required, are a pain in the behind.

Mix that in with going to a shop, doing paperwork next to the guy that you don't know, while an employee is finger banging the gun, watching you transfer money over for it being like "what you pay fer it, heck that's too high". Or, you get to the shop and the dude changes the deal because he doesn't want to pay the fee but you already did paperwork.

Basically, it's like taxes and the DMV. If I don't have to do it, I'm not.

So unless it's some rare gun, I'll go buy the other 30 used 9mm pistols online where I can give the money, I get the gun, and I leave.
 
Please correct me if I am wrong... for an out of state purchase the seller has to take the firearm to a local FFL, their FFL ships it to your FFL, you go to your FFL and pay his fees and pick up the weapon???
 
JeeperCreeper said:
It would depend on the situation for me on that. I consider myself a "fair" buyer and seller, so maybe my opinion gives a new perspective.

And I assume since your on the high road, you're probably a pretty even keeled guy.

But normally it's a hassle. And most guys that I've dealt with when they require extra steps that are not required, are a pain in the behind.

Mix that in with going to a shop, doing paperwork next to the guy that you don't know, while an employee is finger banging the gun, watching you transfer money over for it being like "what you pay fer it, heck that's too high". Or, you get to the shop and the dude changes the deal because he doesn't want to pay the fee but you already did paperwork.

Basically, it's like taxes and the DMV. If I don't have to do it, I'm not.

So unless it's some rare gun, I'll go buy the other 30 used 9mm pistols online where I can give the money, I get the gun, and I leave.
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I always try to make it as easy as possible. I even offered to drive 400 miles so a guy wouldn't have to mail it, to the FFL a mike from his house. I try to make it as painless as possible for the other party. An FFL just makes it so neither of us have to worry if the other guy is legit thanks to the paperwork involved.
 
MikeInOr said:
Please correct me if I am wrong... for an out of state purchase the seller has to take the firearm to a local FFL, the FFL ships it to your FFL, you go to your FFL and pay his fees and pick up the weapon???
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If I can. Usually I offer to pay x amount extra on the gun or x amount off the price to compensate for the fee. If the person wanted I'd call their FFL and offer to pay the fee over the phone right then and there, but nobody has brought that up so I default to the first option. Whatever it takes.
 
daniel craig said:
Because an FFL transfer can protect the buyer too.
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Protect from what exactly?

Most FFLs I've gone to will at least run a cursory check on the serial number to make sure it's not stolen.
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If they told you that, they were lying. FFL's do not have access to the FBI NCIC, (National Crime Information Center) the federal database that has records of stolen firearms.
Access to the NCIC is highly restricted to official business only.....so if your cousin the deputy sheriff says "hey, I'll take a look" hes violating the FBI terms of service and if caught will lose his NCIC access.
 
daniel craig said:
An FFL just makes it so neither of us have to worry if the other guy is legit thanks to the paperwork involved.
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I always thought the the purpose of the FFL was to keep the buyer and seller from each committing a felony? It is this way in Oregon at least. You either do a private party transfer through an FFL or you don't which is a felony (actually 2 felonies, 1 for the buyer and 1 for the seller).
 
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dogtown tom said:
Protect from what exactly?


If they told you that, they were lying. FFL's do not have access to the FBI NCIC, (National Crime Information Center) the federal database that has records of stolen firearms.
Access to the NCIC is highly restricted to official business only.....so if your cousin the deputy sheriff says "hey, I'll take a look" hes violating the FBI terms of service and if caught will lose his NCIC access.
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Let's say, for example, I bought a gun someone stole. Even if the FFL can't run a check it looks a lot better when I have to go to court for buying stolen guns (yay my state) if I tried to keep the transaction as legit as possible by involving an FFL and thus the feds. It's a lot more reasonable to say I assumed the transaction was on the up and up because the FFL didn't have an issue when the background check was run/called in with the associated gun information than if I just buy a gun from a random without even trying any of that.

I mean, if that's flawed logic is be interested in learning more.
 
daniel craig said:
Let's say, for example, I bought a gun someone stole. Even if the FFL can't run a check it looks a lot better when I have to go to court for buying stolen guns (yay my state) if I tried to keep the transaction as legit as possible by involving an FFL and thus the feds. It's a lot more reasonable to say I assumed the transaction was in the up and up because the FFL didn't have an issue when the background check was run/called in with the associated gun information than if I just buy a gun from a random without even trying any of that.
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The last private purchase I made the gun store (FFL) did one set of paper work with the seller that essentially transferred the revolver into the FFL's ownership ($25). Then they did a separate set of paper work transferring the revolver into my ownership ($25). Then they tacked on the $10 background check fee... $60 total. My understanding was I was not actually purchasing the firearm from the seller but was in a legal sense purchasing it from the FFL. BUT I AM NO LAWYER!!!
 
MikeInOr said:
The last private purchase I made the gun store (FFL) did one set of paper work with the seller that essentially transferred the revolver into the FFL's ownership ($25). Then they did a separate set of paper work transferring the revolver into my ownership ($25). Then they tacked on the $10 background check fee... $60 total. My understanding was I was not actually purchasing the firearm from the seller but was in a legal sense purchasing it from the FFL. BUT I AM NO LAWYER!!!
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That's how it happens here too. Your basically buying it from the FFL after they take possession of it. Thus, if the gun was stolen or there is something else up they bought and sold it, not me, thus putting the onus on them and not on me.
 
Personally I won’t sell a gun to someone I don’t know or to a non FFL holder. Just my personal policy.

Armslist is something I’m unlikely to ever use.
 
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Texas10mm said:
There was a Section B when I was selling firearms starting in 1980. Since the GCA of '68 required that information on the then new 4473 I would say it's been in place since 1968.

I don't know what the dealer told you, but if those firearms had serial numbers he was required to put them on the 4473, also, since this was a multiple handgun sale he also had to fill out a 3310 form, one copy of which is sent to the ATF. Here's the new electronic version https://www.atf.gov/file/61426/download
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Not sure what he would have done/not done since I didn't buy them. He's dead now as a result of some other things he did, so it's possible he was trying to do something shady. I just took him at his word at the time though.
 
I've bought two handguns through Armslist under my state's listings "private sales" and done FTF transactions. We make out the necessary form four times and call state DPS and give them all the necessary information. They give us authorization and the seller gives the buyer one copy, keeps one, sends one to my town police dept and one to the state DPS. No tax, no FFL fee (which can be $50-60 in my state). One thing an FFL will give you is a safe transfer which eliminates the meeting a stranger who knows you're carrying a lot of cash part.
 
DeepSouth said:
This, I know a LOT of these people.
They view a 4473 as a direct registration to the ATF, FBI, and every one else in Government. Some of them know it’s not but they don’t trust it to stay that way and ultimately they view it as registration and if you bring it up they’re done talking.
Click to expand...



Applies to me. Most of my firearms went through an FFL but not all. Picked up a JM 44 Mag lever action last summer- met at Chik Fil A, inspected the rifle in the parking lot, handed over the cash- done deal.
 
daniel craig said:
Let's say, for example, I bought a gun someone stole. Even if the FFL can't run a check it looks a lot better when I have to go to court for buying stolen guns (yay my state) if I tried to keep the transaction as legit as possible by involving an FFL and thus the feds. It's a lot more reasonable to say I assumed the transaction was on the up and up because the FFL didn't have an issue when the background check was run/called in with the associated gun information than if I just buy a gun from a random without even trying any of that.

I mean, if that's flawed logic is be interested in learning more.
Click to expand...
Gun dealers don't provide serial numbers to the FBI NICS during the background check...Just type of firearm (handgun/long gun/other).
 
MikeInOr said:
I always thought the the purpose of the FFL was to keep the buyer and seller from each committing a felony? It is this way in Oregon at least. You either do a private party transfer through an FFL or you don't which is a felony (actually 2 felonies, 1 for the buyer and 1 for the seller).
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In Free America, two nonlicensees who are residents of the same state are not required to use an FFL to transfer a firearm. That is not a felony.
 
BTW, my local transfers are fifteen bucks. Another local was right at fifty nearly 20 years ago. Some FFLs are NOT out to get you.

The rifle I purchased this year was in inventory, and naturally had no fee for transfer.
 
Poper said:
You did report this, I hope.
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Absolutely. Sent the emails the fellow to me to the assigned ATF agent. Never heard about an outcome. The email came from a Yahoo mail address. I suspect that was almost impossible to find the person who opened the account.
 
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