38 Short Colt recipes

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jski

jski

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Bought some Starline 38 Short Colt brass plus Lee dies for the aforementioned brass. Blame it on watching too many FortuneCookie45LC videos.

Now, what are some good recipes for these puppies?

Any good recipes using Unique? Titegroup? True Blue?
 
Hodgdon has 2.3-2.7 gr Titegroup for a max vel of 791 FPS, but that’s out of a 7.5” barrel. I’ve seen 2.5 gr Bullseye somewhere, but I can’t remember where. So don’t take my word on it. Unfortunately, There isn’t a lot of data out there for 38 Short Colt. If you’re using a modern 38 special gun, though, you can use .38 S&W data for a little more oomph and a wider choice of bullets while staying in the safe pressure zone. Lyman’s Cast Bullet Handbook #3 has .38 S&W listed with 158 gr cast round nose using 3.2-3.7 gr Unique for up to 805 FPS. Start low and work up with the S&W data.
 
Watch where you get your data there are a bunch of us USPSA revolver shooters running 38 Short Colt way over traditional pressures.
 
I’ll be using my K-frame 357, so I’m not terribly concerned with pressure.
 
In that case I can share what I have with everyone. Please be aware that this load produces fairly high pressure and would not be safe in a tradition conversion revolvers or any original 38 Short Colt.

My current competition load is:

Brass: Remington or Starline
Primer: Federal Small Pistol
Bullet: IBEJIHEADS 160gr RN coated lead, sized .358
OAL: 1.19 inch
Powder: Hodgdon Titegroup
Charge: 3.23 gr (that is the average of 10 drops from an XS charge bar in my Dillon XL 650)
Average Velocity: 871 fps (fired from a 5-inch 627)
PF: 139.4 This is well over Minor Power Factor I needed for USPSA but much below this velocity accuracy got pretty bad so I kept the velocity up.
Quickload predicts this load very accurately after updating the 38 Short Colt entry that was very incorrect. QL is predicting 867 fps with a peak pressure of 26,400 psi for the above load. I have not confirmed that pressure with real measurements but it should give you an idea of the pressures we are dealing with.

A finely crafted example of my reloading
963031265634_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_sid=43edb5&_nc_ohc=IJkTU01gHLoAX9o8Zbr&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-1.jpg

:D
 
Here’s FortuneCookie45LC with 158 grain bullets getting an average of 945 FPS from 38 Short Colts.
 
Yowza... He is pushing it a bit. I don't totally agree with him on the safe pressure assertion especially when he indicated he could go faster. I don't know what his OAL is but going with a standard 1.20 inches with his load of 4.3 gr of Win 231 under a 158 gr bullet I am getting a very similar predicted velocity to his chrono results in Quickloads and a peak pressure of just over 36,000 psi. 357 Mag is a SAAMI MAP of 35,000 psi so he is potential a bit over SAAMI MAP for his revolver. I think if I wanted that much velocity I might go to a longer case but YMMV.
 
I played with the RCBS 9mm-124TG sized .358, coal 1.060" over 3.5 gr Unique. Fun plinker in a 642 but I never bothered putting through a chrono. I intended to pick up the Lee 125 gr mold with the crimp groove but never got around to it.
 
I use them in a percussion revolver, so worry about pressure. For me, Trail Boss is made for this sort of thing.
 
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One more FortuneCookie45LC video. This time comparing cartridge efficiency between the 38 Short Colt and the 38 Special.
 
mcb said:
Watch where you get your data there are a bunch of us USPSA revolver shooters running 38 Short Colt way over traditional pressures.
Click to expand...
Traditional Short Colt pressures, sure, but when people are mostly shooting this in .38 Special or .357 revolvers they'll be fine.
 
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FortuneCookie is the person who got me into reloading with his videos on duplex revolver ammo.

Yeah, he'll bring out weird stuff in regards to revolvers because he wants to see if there's something to having a shorter or longer case and in all the videos he's done on that there is benefit to using a shorter case for a non-magnum big bore caliber. By that I'm saying .44 Russian and .45 Schofield have been shooting better than .44 Special and .45 Colt were. All those cases were made to hold a lot of black powder, but in a smokeless world they didn't need to be as long as they were, but nobody in the early 1900s was going to be making smokeless .44 Russian or .45 S&W ammo knowing how many black powder only revolvers were out there.

There does seem to be a point of diminishing returns tho in going to such a short case and .38 Short Colt demonstrated that with the low accuracy. It would be cool tho if we could have lever actions that allowed us to use the short cases like .38 Short, .44 Russian, .45 Cowboy Special to up the capacity of the tube magazine, but for handgun shooting the super short cases serve little purpose outside of snub revolvers with short ejection rods. Even then, something like .38 Long Colt would work quite well and it seems that it's those short, but not super short cases that have merit.
 
jski said:
Bought some Starline 38 Short Colt brass plus Lee dies for the aforementioned brass. Blame it on watching too many FortuneCookie45LC videos.

Now, what are some good recipes for these puppies?

Any good recipes using Unique? Titegroup? True Blue?
Click to expand...


I trim 38 Special brass down to make something similar to the 38SC. I trim to .790" because the brass starts to get thicker so going to .765" was a no-go. I've been using 38S&W data which is just a step up from a flea fart but very fun to shoot. I load 105SWC and 125rn sized to .358" and both are very accurate from my 4" 357 revolver. Not sure how hot a recipe you're looking for but since case volume is just over that of a 9mm I would say you have all the data you need right there in the 9mm start to mid range, especially since you're planning on firing them from a 357 and provided you're using standard 9mm weight bullets.

38short.jpg 105short.jpg
 
TTv2 said:
Traditional Short Colt pressures, sure, but when people are mostly shooting this in .38 Special or .357 revolvers they'll be fine.
Click to expand...

When I wrote that first post I did not know if jski was loading for a modern revolver or a conversion gun. Given the amount of data from USPSA guys on the internet the warning seemed prudent. By my second post I new he was loading for a 357 Mag so away we went. Much of the USPSA data out there is above pressure for even 38 Special +P so again the warning seemed prudent.
 
I ordered 100 pieces of 38 Short Colt brass from Starline and am considering crowning them with this little 100 grain copper jewels from Lehigh:
upload_2020-5-23_21-1-24.jpeg
I’ll need to push them out at supersonic speeds. But I believe FortuneCookie45LC has shown the way.
 
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TTv2 said:
FortuneCookie is the person who got me into reloading with his videos on duplex revolver ammo.

Yeah, he'll bring out weird stuff in regards to revolvers because he wants to see if there's something to having a shorter or longer case and in all the videos he's done on that there is benefit to using a shorter case for a non-magnum big bore caliber. By that I'm saying .44 Russian and .45 Schofield have been shooting better than .44 Special and .45 Colt were. All those cases were made to hold a lot of black powder, but in a smokeless world they didn't need to be as long as they were, but nobody in the early 1900s was going to be making smokeless .44 Russian or .45 S&W ammo knowing how many black powder only revolvers were out there.

There does seem to be a point of diminishing returns tho in going to such a short case and .38 Short Colt demonstrated that with the low accuracy. It would be cool tho if we could have lever actions that allowed us to use the short cases like .38 Short, .44 Russian, .45 Cowboy Special to up the capacity of the tube magazine, but for handgun shooting the super short cases serve little purpose outside of snub revolvers with short ejection rods. Even then, something like .38 Long Colt would work quite well and it seems that it's those short, but not super short cases that have merit.
Click to expand...
I would be suspicious of that Taurus revolver. When a 158 grain bullet leaves the barrel at 945 FPS, it’s all about the gun at that point.
 
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mcb said:
In that case I can share what I have with everyone. Please be aware that this load produces fairly high pressure and would not be safe in a tradition conversion revolvers or any original 38 Short Colt.

My current competition load is:

Brass: Remington or Starline
Primer: Federal Small Pistol
Bullet: IBEJIHEADS 160gr RN coated lead, sized .358
OAL: 1.19 inch
Powder: Hodgdon Titegroup
Charge: 3.23 gr (that is the average of 10 drops from an XS charge bar in my Dillon XL 650)
Average Velocity: 871 fps (fired from a 5-inch 627)
PF: 139.4 This is well over Minor Power Factor I needed for USPSA but much below this velocity accuracy got pretty bad so I kept the velocity up.
Quickload predicts this load very accurately after updating the 38 Short Colt entry that was very incorrect. QL is predicting 867 fps with a peak pressure of 26,400 psi for the above load. I have not confirmed that pressure with real measurements but it should give you an idea of the pressures we are dealing with.

A finely crafted example of my reloading
View attachment 918299

:D
Click to expand...
  1. Which wheelgun were you using?
  2. What was the barrel length?
  3. Did you consider a lighter bullet, maybe 105 grains?
 
jski said:
  1. Which wheelgun were you using?
  2. What was the barrel length?
  3. Did you consider a lighter bullet, maybe 105 grains?
Click to expand...
I was using a S&W 627 PC with a 5-inch barrel.

I went with 160gr bullet as that is about as heavy as you can get in a Short Colt and make the required PF. The accepted wisdom is that if you have to met a Power Factor floor (for a sport like IDPA or USPSA) then doing so with as heavy a bullet as possible with a small charge of as fast burning powder as you can that manages to get the velocity you need without over pressure. This results in the most pleasant recoil impulse to most shooter. So I ended up with 160gr and titegroup. Lighter bullets loaded to the same power factor tend to have a snappier recoil impulse and requires more powder thus increasing total recoil impulse even though Power Factor does not capture that.
 
mcb said:
I was using a S&W 627 PC with a 5-inch barrel.

I went with 160gr bullet as that is about as heavy as you can get in a Short Colt and make the required PF. The accepted wisdom is that if you have to met a Power Factor floor (for a sport like IDPA or USPSA) then doing so with as heavy a bullet as possible with a small charge of as fast burning powder as you can that manages to get the velocity you need without over pressure. This results in the most pleasant recoil impulse to most shooter. So I ended up with 160gr and titegroup. Lighter bullets loaded to the same power factor tend to have a snappier recoil impulse and requires more powder thus increasing total recoil impulse even though Power Factor does not capture that.
Click to expand...
What about using them with something like this for a quick load defense option?
upload_2020-5-25_17-32-9.jpeg
Controlled Fracturing® 105gr Bullet

Shorter rounds are easier to reload, especially under stress.
 
jski said:
What about using them with something like this for a quick load defense option?
View attachment 919127
Click to expand...
I like that bullet shape for a fast reload. Though I might be tempted to go up to a longer case for a bit more case volume behind them but some of that would depend on what velocity does the bullet preform best terminally.
 
mcb said:
I like that bullet shape for a fast reload. Though I might be tempted to go up to a longer case for a bit more case volume behind them but some of that would depend on what velocity does the bullet preform best terminally.
Click to expand...
At 105 grains and based on FortuneCookie45’s path, I think you could easily push these bullets past the supersonic threshold. Using Titegroup in the 38 Short Colt brass ... possibly starting at 4.5 grains.
 
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From the Lehigh website:
Lehigh Defense originated Controlled Fracturing Technology. These bullets are designed to deliver maximum terminal performance. Controlled Fracturing bullets are produced from either solid copper or solid brass and are pre-stressed at specific points so that after a predetermined penetration depth, the razor-edge petals deploy, releasing an energy spike and then separate and radiate outward from the primary path of the bullet. The bullet shank, now back to bore diameter, continues penetrating straight and deep along the initial impact path.

  • A minimum of four separate wound channels resulting in extensive damage

  • CNC machined from solid copper or brass, not formed or swaged

  • Exceptional accuracy from the advanced manufacturing process

  • Razor sharp petals for maximum terminal performance

  • Deep penetrating base projectile

  • Expansion is initiated by hydraulic energy – expansion only where it is required
Click to expand...
 
true blue is smoky as hell in that.
I tried exactly this a few weeks ago.
Cut down 60 spcl cases and 125gr rn lead.
True blue, 700x and trail boss were good, unique was ok.
I couldn't find a powder that didn't at least play well with those 125gr projos.

It brought a giggle of light off 6 of those in a 6" bbl 586.
Pop pop pop pop pop pop.......giggle
 
jski said:
From the Lehigh website:
Click to expand...
I personally would rather have a non-fracturing bullet. I like the better penetration of one single heavy projectile than multiple lighter projectiles at least in a revolver bullet. A varmint hunting round would be another story.
 
mcb said:
I personally would rather have a non-fracturing bullet. I like the better penetration of one single heavy projectile than multiple lighter projectiles at least in a revolver bullet. A varmint hunting round would be another story.
Click to expand...
Like I mentioned on another thread, these Lehigh all copper bullets seem to be the rage these days. Part of a “lead is dead” movement of some kind.

(Don’t tell the guys at http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forum.php)

They have gotten rave reviews on some of the gun channels but I have no personal experience with them.
 
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