Is Accuracy Really this Difficult?

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Shotgun12

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Lately I’ve been in contact with a few gunsmiths concerning doing some accurizing work on my Uberti .45.
I’ve had a couple tell me to just sell it and buy a Ruger. Ha .... some kind of help.

Initially I contacted Cimarron about the accuracy issue and was told that they don’t make “target pistols” .... and basically couldn’t care less.

I do not like Rugers, and will not buy any revolver with a “safety”, or one not having a hammer without a fixed firing pin. I’m a bit of a purist and I don’t see why it should be this difficult for a company to produce a Colt Clone that is not only visually accurate, but also performs well, especially with the modern manufacturing means we have these days .... just no excuse.

It may sound a bit funny, but I owned a Ruger Blackhawk about 35 years ago, and that was the most accurate pistols I’ve ever shot. I just cannot believe Ruger’s crew are some kind of wizards, that know all the secrets of the universe. Nope.

Now I don’t want to come across as talking down gunsmiths because this is absolutely not the case .... I assure you. I know that a firearm is just a machine, and as such, it can be “fixed” like any other machine. I worked as a machinist for many years when I was younger, and I know a bit about the processes involved in manufacturing these things .... it ain’t rocket science. There’s only so many things that can be wrong with it.

If a certain component is out of spec, you either replace it, or rework it. I also know that you can reach a point where it’s no longer cost effective to continue with repairs.

It's not like cost is no object either, it’s a damn big object so I won’t be spending a couple grand on this revolver, or any other new one. As long as the expenses don’t get ridiculous I still want to do this if at all possible, and if I can locate a good ‘smith that feels confident that they have the answers and are willing to help, instead of telling me it’s a lost cause and I should just toss the pistol, and buy a Ruger. That’s just plain BS, and makes for a nice excuse.

I know pretty much everyone is backlogged, but if anybody out there can help me out, I’d really appreciate it.

There has to be somebody out there that that has figured out what kinds of problems these Uberti’s have, and knows how to fix ‘em.
 
I'm not aware of any generic problems with the Uberti line of guns that would make them less accurate than a Ruger Vaquero. Both suffer from rather poor sights.

A Blackhawk will deliver better accuracy that a Uberti simply because the sights offer a better sight picture than that offered by the Uberti. Here I tried a side-by-side comparison, .45 Colt:

100_0006.jpg

As to the .44 Special:

101_0001_zps9a471ea7.jpg


100_9999-1_zps7244ec50.jpg

While I love my Rugers, I can't honestly say there is a great deal of difference in accuracy between the two revolvers.

Bob Wright
 
As a matter of interest, what seems to be your problem with the Uberti? Are you able to shoot a decent group? Or are you shooting "patterns?" Bullets keyholing? Identifying the source of the problem goes a long way in helping to locate the problem.

If I were you I'd slug the bore and cylinder throats to see if they are maybe the culprit. Lock-up O.K.? Shaving lead?
Such research might get more interest from your 'smith than just a generic "need an accuracy job" approach.

Bob Wright
 
This is not going to help in any way but 10years ago or so I had a top-of-the-line AK built buy a smith in Bozeman Montana. The guys passion was cowboy action jobs on single actions AND akm rifles. I emailed him back then to verify my amd65 was one of his and it was. Nice guy but I don’t remember his name. But his work is TOP NOTCH! Maybe someone knows who I’m talking about..
 
BobWright said:
As a matter of interest, what seems to be your problem with the Uberti? Are you able to shoot a decent group? Or are you shooting "patterns?"
Bob Wright
Click to expand...

This.

Please be more specific.

Are you getting tight groups far away from point of aim, large groups centered on point of aim, large groups far away from point of aim?

What ammo are you shooting? Do you handload?
 
In that case, wanna trade pistols?

Every pistol is going to be different. Maybe the Blackhawk I ended up with was just a fluke that I got a perfect piece. And the Uberti is a rare lemon.

Either way, there has to be some way of making this .45 shoot better, rather than just write it off.

Adjustable sights just make it easier to line up the sights to POI, but with compensation, it won’t really affect its inherent accuracy or group sizes. If my shots were mostly to one direction or another, I’d say it was an issue with sighting/aiming, however when they go in all directions at random, there’s something else going on.

I adjusted the elevation and tweaked the windage a bit, but while it’s a bit closer to POA it’s still too inconsistent. By that I mean the target hits can be 2” –4” high, low, or any combination, at less than 20yds.

I’ve polished the tool marks out of the forcing cone, and there has never been any excess leading at all .... either there or in the bore.

BTW these 255g Keith cast swc’s leave nice round holes. If I could shoot good groups with this thing, I wouldn’t be looking for a smith.

Also, bad groups and keyholing are results of a problem, not a source.

I just sent Taylors an email earlier today, as well to a couple other smiths, and I did give them a detailed description, since you seemed so interested Bob.

Is there some reason you seem to think I didn’t do that, or do you just like throwing insults?

Also, I am perfectly capable of shooting very well, thank you very much. With the Ruger, I could shoot pop cans all day at 25yds. With this Uberti, I’d be lucky to do that at even 18 –20yds.

I really don’t have the necessary tools to measure some diameters properly. As far as I can tell, the camber throats seem to be where they should be. Not so sure about the bore. I’ll leave that assessment to a smith with the proper tools and experience. I worked as a machinist for many years when I was younger, and I know a bit about the processes involved in manufacturing these things .... it ain’t rocket science. There’s only so many things that can be wrong with it.

I’d say that the groups, seem to be randomly scattered around the aiming point.

FYI, been reloading 40 years and shooting for 50.
 
If it was mine I would do the following:
1) have the cylinder throats equalized at .4525", unless some are already larger than that, in which case equalize to the smallest throat you have;
2) action job and set trigger pull at 2½ - 3 pounds;
3) shoot .453" bullets, or diameter at least equal to the throat diameter.
After this it will almost certainly be a lot more accurate than before.
 
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I would bet anything your bullets are too small for the throats in your cylinder.

I have several Smith & Wesson 45 Colt revolvers that suffer from this issue.

Store bought cast bullets of .451-452 scatter like buckshot at 25 yards.

Load them up with bullets of .454 diameter and they shoot just fine.

If you haven’t already done so (and before you send it off to a gunsmith) try some larger diameter bullets just to see if it settles down.

It’ll sure beat shipping it off to a gunsmith (who won’t shoot it anyway as ammo is too much overhead) I’d try that and see what happens.

At this point you have nothing to lose.
 
I've known Bob a good while and I've never seen him throw an insult yet. I also agree that there's nothing inherent to the Uberti that keeps it from shooting well, aside from the lackluster blackpowder era sights.

I've read the thread twice and I still don't understand what the actual problem is.

47A5E19F-326F-4596-B27F-230B454C99E71.jpg
 
Shotgun12 said:
Ha .... some kind of help.

.... and basically couldn’t care less.

.... just no excuse.

. Nope.

it ain’t rocket science.

That’s just plain BS, and makes for a nice excuse.

Is there some reason you seem to think I didn’t do that, or do you just like throwing insults?
.
Click to expand...

^^^^^
This might be part of the problem. Busy craftsmen can pick and choose who they will work with.

" I adjusted the elevation and tweaked the windage a bit, but while it’s a bit closer to POA it’s still too inconsistent. By that I mean the target hits can be 2” –4” high, low, or any combination, at less than 20yds."

Which Uberti's have adjustable sights?

Shotgun12 said:
FYI, been reloading 40 years and shooting for 50.
Click to expand...
This puts you at around 70 years old. Maybe it's you and not the gun.
 
Oh boy, you’re really going to hate me if the above replies triggered you, but.....in my experience...keyholing and reloading usually means overcrimping or another error in the reloading process. That being said, it could certainly be the gun too. Have you tried factory ammo?
 
kidneyboy said:
^^^^^

" I adjusted the elevation and tweaked the windage a bit, but while it’s a bit closer to POA it’s still too inconsistent. By that I mean the target hits can be 2” –4” high, low, or any combination, at less than 20yds."

Which Uberti's have adjustable sights?
.
Click to expand...
Son has a Uberti Cattleman, fixed, trough type rear sights..and it's really accurate..in 45LC...
 
Interesting thread.

I find that the limitation for my Uberti accuracy is typically me working with those sights.

I can fairly consistently make 35-40 yard shots, one handed, with my uberti SAA. It's their base model 'cattleman', I think.

Earlier in the thread someone suggested a trigger job and some other things. Good suggestions imo.

It's going to be real hard to get into the handgun accuracy game on a tight budget, IMO.

Especially if you are ruling out Ruger.

And @BobWright and @CraigC are well respected single action revolver enthusiasts around here.
 
Shotgun12 said:
Adjustable sights just make it easier to line up the sights to POI, but with compensation, it won’t really affect its inherent accuracy or group sizes. If my shots were mostly to one direction or another, I’d say it was an issue with sighting/aiming, however when they go in all directions at random, there’s something else going on.
Click to expand...

Here's where I'll disagree with you. Good sights, adjustable or not, allow more consistant sight pictures/alignment. By that I mean a rear sight that has a flat top surface and a good square post front sight. The rear sight on a revolver, single action or double action, is sort of an arc, a curved surface, as opposed to the flat line of a target sight. This makes it difficult to accurately place the front post at the proper point, as the eye tends to place it at the apex of an imagined arc at times, then lined up with the edges of the frame's sight.

I certainly did not intend any insult to you or your ability but was trying to diagnose your problem, and dimensional differences, however slight, affect the bullet's path as it tries to get out of the gun and after. I had assumed you had checked all things as accuracy of lock-up and trigger pull and checked the muzzle crown.

Your original post was not very clear in stating your problem, or at least it wasn't to me.

Bob Wright
 
As others have stated, measure your bore diameter and your cylinder throats. Make sure your projectiles are sized appropriately for your gun. (I'm assuming that you're hand loading.)

I started out with incorrect sized projectiles for my throats in a DA Ruger, and changing projectiles was a night/day difference. (This also assumes lock up and alignment/timing are good.)

Good luck.
 
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Shotgun12 said:
I don’t see why it should be this difficult for a company to produce a Colt Clone that is not only visually accurate, but also performs well, especially with the modern manufacturing means we have these days .... just no excuse.
Click to expand...

It's not that difficult, it's just difficult to do with a sub $500 revolver. I believe that is what Cimarron was trying to say.
Shotgun12 said:
As long as the expenses don’t get ridiculous I still want to do this if at all possible, and if I can locate a good ‘smith that feels confident that they have the answers and are willing to help, instead of telling me it’s a lost cause and I should just toss the pistol, and buy a Ruger. That’s just plain BS, and makes for a nice excuse.
Click to expand...

I think what you are being told is not to just "toss" your revolver, but that cost wise, you're probably better off, as it may cost you more overall, to make the Uberti as accurate as the Ruger. That is, if it is the revolver that is truly at fault.

You've gotten some good advice here considering what little information has been given. I too did not see any insults, just folks trying to help determine what the issue was. i.e., If it's muzzle crown, ain't no trigger job gonna help. If it's a wide variety of throat sizes, a recrown is probably only gonna be cosmetic. Sometimes we just have to accept the limitations of what we have.
 
FFGCOLORADO said:
Son has a Uberti Cattleman, fixed, trough type rear sights..and it's really accurate..in 45LC...
Click to expand...
That's what I mean, it's the luck of the draw pretty much. Also means that there's nothing inherently wrong with these things that cannot be fixed.
I don't believe in jinxes or curses.

From my first post;
"I know that a firearm is just a machine, and as such, it can be “fixed” like any other machine. I worked as a machinist for many years when I was younger, and I know a bit about the processes involved in manufacturing these things .... it ain’t rocket science. There’s only so many things that can be wrong with it.
If a certain component is out of spec, you either replace it, or rework it. I also know that you can reach a point where it’s no longer cost effective to continue with repairs."
 
kidneyboy said:
This puts you at around 70 years old. Maybe it's you and not the gun.
Click to expand...


o_O 65 actually. Believe me I've considered it, but whenever I get my hands on an accurate pistol .... no problems. There will come a day though.

As for reloading, I never said I was getting keyholes. I've been loading for 40 years, and I know what I'm doing.

I seldom use much of a crimp unless absolutely necessary. It's just a good way to wear out your brass.

So far I’ve tried 5 different powders for the hell of it, but no real change. I did notice that HS-6 seemed to show a slight improvement, but nothing to write home about.

I've tried factory loads and they were really bad. I've always found my reloads to be more accurate than any factory ammo in whatever caliber I've used over the years, pistol or rifle.

The factory .45 I tried were those wimpy little cowgirl loads with 200 grain bullets. Reloading, I went with a 255g cast bullet which brought the elevation up, but groups are still more like a pattern. No consistency. Elevation started out too low BTW.

Also, I've already done the trigger and I left it at a nice crisp 2.3lbs.

The cylinder throats were one of the first areas I thought about, but I'll leave that to the smith.

A while back, I looked into some over-size bullets but they were way more expensive and you had buy several thousand of the damn things before they would change tooling to make a "special" run. I'd rather fix the problem and be done with it, and not have to depend on using work-arounds.
 
Shotgun12 said:
o_O 65 actually. Believe me I've considered it, but whenever I get my hands on an accurate pistol .... no problems. There will come a day though.

As for reloading, I never said I was getting keyholes. I've been loading for 40 years, and I know what I'm doing.

I seldom use much of a crimp unless absolutely necessary. It's just a good way to wear out your brass.

So far I’ve tried 5 different powders for the hell of it, but no real change. I did notice that HS-6 seemed to show a slight improvement, but nothing to write home about.

I've tried factory loads and they were really bad. I've always found my reloads to be more accurate than any factory ammo in whatever caliber I've used over the years, pistol or rifle.

The factory .45 I tried were those wimpy little cowgirl loads with 200 grain bullets. Reloading, I went with a 255g cast bullet which brought the elevation up, but groups are still more like a pattern. No consistency. Elevation started out too low BTW.

Also, I've already done the trigger and I left it at a nice crisp 2.3lbs.

The cylinder throats were one of the first areas I thought about, but I'll leave that to the smith.

A while back, I looked into some over-size bullets but they were way more expensive and you had buy several thousand of the damn things before they would change tooling to make a "special" run. I'd rather fix the problem and be done with it, and not have to depend on using work-arounds.
Click to expand...

I was thinking that in post 7, you were describing your current situation......”Also, bad groups and keyholing are results of a problem, not a source.”
 
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