"Cat sneeze" 357/38 loads.
- Thread starter Obturation
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Obturation
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I've done this for many years, CB (long & short), colibri & super colibri, various other cci offerings, aguila sss, and some others. Accuracy is the issue, I have one rifle that does ok but it's still pretty poor accuracy.A Remington 22 Fieldmaster loaded with 22 short CB caps is a lot of fun and supper quite just saying
mcb
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Yeah the only reason I tried the CB's was my old Winchester 67 had been left neglected in the back of the utilities closet at my grandparents house. No one even new grandpa had it until after they both had passed. The bore was pitted in places badly (from old ammo) and with hi velocity 22 LR it would not shoot very good at all. So I started trying other ammo to see if it like anything. The slower I went the better the accuracy got and it loved the CCI CB Longs, minute of chipmunk out as far I you could still get a sight picture on them. My 10/22 surprising shoots the Aguila SSS fairly well and cycles fairly reliably. At 50 yards it will put a 1 - 1.5 inch group right where the cross hairs get thick on the vertical wire of the duplex reticle in the scope.
Mr_Flintstone
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Ever the experimenter, I tried a 4.9 gr 2400 charge this morning. It was a little louder; about the same as 2.3 gr Titegroup or 2.5 gr Bullseye, but man, they were accurate. At 40 ft, I put five shots in a quarter sized hole off hand with my Henry. I think maybe it could be took down a hair more and still work. Of the three powders I’ve tried so far, 2400 was the best, and loudest, Bullseye was the quietest, and 2nd most accurate, and Titegroup was 2nd loudest, and least accurate. I intend to continue this with some other powders.
mcb
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Did you chrono the data? What gun did you shoot it from, barrel length?
Mr_Flintstone
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mcb
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Bummer, if you going to try for the bottom velocity having a chronograph would be very helpful in your endeavour.
Mr_Flintstone
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A .22 short in my Marlin 39A in the wide open is so quiet all I hear is the hammer drop.
I agree with the earlier posters, the smallest charge of a very fast pistol powder that just does get the bullet out of the bore. For this lead is the easiest to get out which will help keep the charge weight down. A 148 Gr HBWC, or a soft 125 Gr.
Matts Bullets sells a small 75 Gr WC for .38 Spl that should work well.
I just looked, they also have a 93 Gr RN that has a very small bearing surface. Either should work well.
I agree with the earlier posters, the smallest charge of a very fast pistol powder that just does get the bullet out of the bore. For this lead is the easiest to get out which will help keep the charge weight down. A 148 Gr HBWC, or a soft 125 Gr.
Matts Bullets sells a small 75 Gr WC for .38 Spl that should work well.
I just looked, they also have a 93 Gr RN that has a very small bearing surface. Either should work well.
LUCKYDAWG13
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I have a old Lyman mold that drops a 120gr rn i use it in 9mm but will have to play around with a 38 just for kicks
Mr_Flintstone
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I dropped 2400 down to 4.5 gr, and tried again. They quietened down a lot. Accuracy held to less than 1” at 40 ft.
I also tried 3 gr Unique, but they were nearly as loud as a factory load. Accuracy was excellent, but could probably go down to 2.5 without a problem. I’d make some more, but I’m out of those 158 blunt nose bullets. Maybe I’ll try with some round nose cast that I have.
I also tried 3 gr Unique, but they were nearly as loud as a factory load. Accuracy was excellent, but could probably go down to 2.5 without a problem. I’d make some more, but I’m out of those 158 blunt nose bullets. Maybe I’ll try with some round nose cast that I have.
Jim Watson
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I have not worked with minimum centerfires, but for whatever reason CCI Standard Velocity in the green and white box of the 1970s was markedly quieter in my Walther rifle than anything else then to now.
Mr_Flintstone
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Often times we say things like “Sounds like a .22”, but that’s just a judgement call. That got me wondering if there was a way to objectively measure the loudness of these rounds without a large investment of money. A Google search recommended an app called Decibel X. I don’t know how accurate it is, but I decided to use it as a way to measure the relative loudness of some rounds. I took readings of four rounds each of various rounds and calculated the average decibel reading for each. 22 caliber are 40 gr from a 19” barrel Marlin 60, and 38 Special are all 158 gr cast from my 20” Henry. Here they are:
Aguila 22 short - 86.2 dB
Aguila 22 LR Standard Velocity - 86.6 dB
Winchester 22 LR Subsonic - 88.7 dB
Federal 22 LR High Velocity - 90.6 dB
2.0 gr Bullseye 38 Special - 90.6 dB
2.0 gr Titegroup 38 Special - 89.15 dB
4.5 gr 2400 38 Special - 92.5 dB
3.8 gr Titegroup Max Load 38 Special - 97.3 dB
All measurements were made from an iPad with Decibel X on a Mountain Dew box beside and slightly behind me, and all rounds were fired from the same position. There’s actually a lot more goes into how loud something sounds than just it’s decibel measure, but this gives some indication of how loud the rounds are.
Aguila 22 short - 86.2 dB
Aguila 22 LR Standard Velocity - 86.6 dB
Winchester 22 LR Subsonic - 88.7 dB
Federal 22 LR High Velocity - 90.6 dB
2.0 gr Bullseye 38 Special - 90.6 dB
2.0 gr Titegroup 38 Special - 89.15 dB
4.5 gr 2400 38 Special - 92.5 dB
3.8 gr Titegroup Max Load 38 Special - 97.3 dB
All measurements were made from an iPad with Decibel X on a Mountain Dew box beside and slightly behind me, and all rounds were fired from the same position. There’s actually a lot more goes into how loud something sounds than just it’s decibel measure, but this gives some indication of how loud the rounds are.
mcb
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Those apps can sometimes struggle to get the values exactly right with gun shots due to how short of time a gun shot is and how relatively slow phones and tablets can sample their microphone. None the less the relative difference between those various shots is really cool and probably a more than an adequate way to evaluate your loads for your purpose. Nice.
RealGun
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The load with 158 LTCFP, .357 brass, and Trailboss that I use for cowboy action (rifle) is 3.2 grains. That is Hodgdon minimum.
Toprudder
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Distance to the meter is very important as well, a dB level without distance of measurement may not be useful except for relative terms (which yours is). For every doubling of distance, the level drops by 6dB.
Phantom 309
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I don't have much to add other than a quick report on these hot glue projectiles. I'd never considered such a thing until I saw this and just had to try it.
I used a Lee .358 158g flat point mold and sprayed it with cooking spray. I found that filling the cavities through the sprue plate didn't work so well, so I filled the cavities and then closed the sprue plate once the glue hardened to cut the excess from the bases. The glue bullets weighed right around 13.5g.
I drilled the flash holes to .125" and trimmed cases to .75" (I may experiment with an even shorter case length in the future but for now I just wanted them short as an obvious identifier that the flash holes were enlarged to prevent mix-ups). CCI small pistol primers were used.
I fired the rounds from a Taurus M66 6" revolver in a 2 car garage with doors closed at a distance of about 7 yards. The report was similar to an enthusiastic handclap. I peeked out the door at my neighbor who was doing yard work and she didn't even seem to notice, lol. All shots grouped about 3" low and 1" right of POA. I fired into a midway shipping box stuffed with hazmat air bubble cushions with another box stuffed with rags behind. 1 of the 6 rounds penetrated clean through the first box but did not enter the second.
This concept was really interesting to me and I will certainly be doing more experimentation soon, but for now I just wanted to give my 2 cents on the matter and let @Obturation know that some of the interested parties have indeed tried his idea.
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Obturation
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Nice!
I talked about it at some point, the best accuracy I've gotten is from a non rifled 12 gauge chamber adapter. I've used my 6" gp100 too but it was a little louder, I never saw any impression of the rifling- I kind of doubt they're spinning. So I got one of those chamber insert/adapter things - smooth bore. I like the break action shotgun with the adapter because it has an unusual sound , like a miniature grenade launcher , a tiny "thunk" sound and not much else. It's hard to gauge accuracy but I think the smooth bore is maybe a bit better.
I'm interested in your results too, as this is a bit of a work in progress for me too.
-We're your projectiles reusable?
Mine generally are.
I've been using the gorilla brand glue sticks because they're harder and not as rubbery , not sure if that's a good thing or not but they last a few firings.
-Do you see impression of the rifling?
-how tight was your grouping?
I did see the POI was off, which is to be expected.
An idea I had was to imbed a bb or pellet toward the center, just to add a little mass, haven't tried it yet but may aid in accuracy.
I also want to try a full wadcutter & round ball molds to see if there's any potential there.was going to drill a .358ish hole in a wood block and pump it full and just clip off the wad cutters to desired length, may save time and produce a better "bullet".
Glad you decided to give it a try, I certainly don't have it perfected but I see potential.
Take care
Phantom 309
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My 6 shot group size was just about 4.75" a couple of the shots went through nearly the same ragged holes but there were two fliers, one low left of group and one slightly high. There are some very light rifling marks on them but I suspect that you are correct in that they are not spinning. 5 of the 6 shots keyholed the target and I thought perhaps they were traveling so slowly that they "tore" through the target and box instead of punching through cleanly, but the final shot made a nice round hole which sunk my theory.
I only had a cheap craft store glue gun and sticks on hand so I used that, but the bullets are certainly reusable. I'd like to track down some gorilla glue sticks and give them a go soon. Interestingly, I'd also considered dropping a BB into the mold but wondered what negative effect it may have if it were not centered. I suppose there's only one way to find out and that means more testing!
I like the idea of sending it down a longer barrel with no cylinder gap to direct the noise downrange. I'll have to look into one of those chamber adapters, I'd honestly never heard of such a thing before. It feels like before I found THR I was just goofing around, but now I'm learning all sorts of neat things!
One last note is that the reason I wanted to try these is that I'm in a similar situation with neighbors. My Grandmother owns a cabin in the hills where it is legal and safe to shoot but the neighbors don't care for the noise. And these neighbors are otherwise friendly and help look after the place when none of us are around so I don't want to be a nuisance.
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Obturation
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Phantom 309
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Thanks for the link!
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Obturation
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There are others who make these things in many varieties , rifled and smooth in many lengths too. That's just the one I bought. Never fired real ammo from it, mine will take a 357 case or 38.
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