OP
OP
troy fairweather
Member
Shot then 140 hotcor from the 6.5 prc today. 57 and 57.5 looking promising.
Bonded vs monolithic bullets.
- Thread starter troy fairweather
- Start date
- Status
DM~
Member
That's NOT set in stone either...
Depends on EXACTLY what two bullets that are being compared, because I've tested MANY hot cores back in my bullet mfg days, and many of them worked just as good at their GS cousins, but NONE of them worked as good as Nosler partitions!!
All bullet mfg's taper jackets according to many different criteria, they (different weights/diameters ect.) aren't all tapered the same...
All mfg's don't even use the same recipe for their "gilding metal jacket material", for each and every bullet they design...
DM
They are soft......and bonded....
The current production Speer Grand Slam bullets are comparable with but not identical to the discontinued in most diameters and weights Speer Mag Tip bullets.
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2010/11/10/revisiting-speers-big-game-bullets/
Unalloyed copper used in bullet jackets is generally represented by bullet manufacturers as being softer than alloyed gilding metal, and fouling bores more quickly than gilding metal. The same representation is also carried in monometal bullets (Hornady GMX for example). Norma employs a coating with their Ecostrike bullet line, and prior Kalahari bullet line which along with positive end user reviews, puts the Bondstrike at the top of my list if I ever hunt somewhere that requires lead free projectiles. The Federal (nee Speer) Trophy Bonded bullet line also currently incorporates a coating, with Terminal Ascent incorporating the most relief grooves in the shank of that bullet line. The Jack Carter and Speer label Trophy Bonded bullets had no grooves cut in the shank.
Others such as Barnes, North Fork, GS Custom, Peregrine, etc have incorporated grooves in the jacket shank (note North Fork, like Swift Scirrocco and A-Frame, are not lead free designs).
Hawk bullets represent using pure copper jackets annealed to what they describe as a "dead soft" condition with lead cores. These do not have grooves cut in the shank, but may (or may not) include a cannelure.
https://hawkbullets.com
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2010/11/10/revisiting-speers-big-game-bullets/
Unalloyed copper used in bullet jackets is generally represented by bullet manufacturers as being softer than alloyed gilding metal, and fouling bores more quickly than gilding metal. The same representation is also carried in monometal bullets (Hornady GMX for example). Norma employs a coating with their Ecostrike bullet line, and prior Kalahari bullet line which along with positive end user reviews, puts the Bondstrike at the top of my list if I ever hunt somewhere that requires lead free projectiles. The Federal (nee Speer) Trophy Bonded bullet line also currently incorporates a coating, with Terminal Ascent incorporating the most relief grooves in the shank of that bullet line. The Jack Carter and Speer label Trophy Bonded bullets had no grooves cut in the shank.
Others such as Barnes, North Fork, GS Custom, Peregrine, etc have incorporated grooves in the jacket shank (note North Fork, like Swift Scirrocco and A-Frame, are not lead free designs).
Hawk bullets represent using pure copper jackets annealed to what they describe as a "dead soft" condition with lead cores. These do not have grooves cut in the shank, but may (or may not) include a cannelure.
https://hawkbullets.com
Garandimal
member
I posted a current production GS that I sectioned.
I have also sectioned HC bullets.
The only difference to the old GS is:
- monolithic hot core.
- no shear lock.
Unless I over-stress them, they set up and expand bigger, while retaining more weight, than the HC bullets.
Almost everything is a pass-through.
Drive them directly into a big shoulder joint or femur at close range, and they will not hold up like a Partition.
A rib, off-shoulder, or scapula shot, on the other hand, will perform about the same.
YMMV.
GR
Garandimal
member
The HC is a very good inexpensive bullet - in the heavy for caliber offerings.
GR
OP
OP
troy fairweather
Member
Ya I always liked them. I'm about do for 7mms, still not sure to get the 145s or 160s to try out. The 145 should be less then 3000fps. My 7wsm will get a slicker tuffer bullet which I have not decided on yet.
Garandimal
member
Always thought that, for a hunting rifle load, the .280 Rem/160 gr. at 28-2900 fps was ideal.
Plenty fast, great SD and BC, and heavy enough to do big jobs well.
Settled for the .270 WCF/ 150 gr. because of factory ammo.
GR
What are you calling a shear lock?
1. The partial internal ring that was located between the two different composition lead cores in the previous generation?
2. The ring on the outside of the jacket above the cannelure in the heavy for caliber bullets?
3. The heel fold in the design before the partial internal ring was used?
Garandimal
member
The shear lock set the rear core. No rear core - no shear lock.
The cannelure still exists.
The heel lock is inconclusive, and probably less of a lock than the improved adhesion of the monolithic hot core.
Original and current production GS bullets: (though different calibers)
When this happens, the thick jacket, instead of pealing back like a HC, resists the moment and instead supports the expanding mushroom.
And then it starts to expand outward with the mushroom, like the bell of a trumpet.
This prys the jacket away from the core to the point of defeating the cannalure and breaking the adhesion well down the core.
The core can come loose.
The original dual-core design had the shear lock far enough down to hold, and the hot core essentially soldered to it via the base core.
The current GS bullet is more accurate due to the improved concentrically of the monolithic hot core, and works the same as the "Mag-Tip" bullet that it should have been called.
It is also considerably less expensive.
At least as good, if not better, and more accurate than the Core-Lokt, which is probably the gold std. for cupNcore bullets.
It both sets up well and retains good weight.
Just know that it is a $0.30 bullet, and not a $0.75-85 bonded or partition.
And treat it accordingly.
GR
Last edited:
Which of your photos do you label "original" Speer Grand Slam construction?
We know Speer's own marketing both showed and described a heel lock for the rear core section, and zero internal ring between the two cores, originally. There is both drawn and written description of the external jacket ring above the cannelure.
Just like this link shows.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/869833142
Later, the heel lock was dropped, and a partial internal ring added at the juncture of the two cores, as shown here. Note the external ring above the cannelure is still visible on the recovered .308 180 grain specimens.
http://kjg-munition.de/Zielwirkung/Geschossbilder.htm
Then after ATK assumed ownership the currently manufactured version of the Speer Grand Slam was put into production with discussion the 6.5mm, .257, and 6mm always having this design, dropped for years than brought back.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...neup-of-grand-slam-hunting-rifle-bullets/amp/
So it's clear what you define as a shear lock, wasn't present in the original Speer Grand Slam bullets which is precisely why I asked what you're calling a shear lock. Two cores, but no internal ring originally, but a heel lock for the rear core. And note I never said the cannelure was removed from Speer Grand Slam bullets. However the external ring above the cannelure in heavy for caliber bullets has been removed in the current production version.
I do own of all three versions of 7mm 160 grain and 175 grain Speer Grand Slam bullets myself. I own the second and third versions in 7mm 145 grain. I plan to "treat accordingly" in 7mm-08 and 7X64mm from before I acquired these bullets. As such I'm going to use the third version for load development and others for hunting. That's my "accordingly".
The Speer literature I have shows what you call a shear lock was termed as locking in the rear core. Since it's not a bonded design, what I see is mechanical lock against core slippage. The external ring above the cannelure is more of a function against shear forces to retard expansion past a certain point.
Of course YMMV.
Last edited:
The construction of the Speer Mag Tip bullets can be seen in the Speer advertising for that design as shown at this link.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1973-Speer-MAG-TIP-Bullet-Ad-Perfect-Bullet/224023615263
As I previously mentioned, this is similar to, but not the same, as the current production Speer Grand Slam bullets. In same diameter and bullet weights, the Mag Tip has a lower G1 BC. AFAIK, the Speer Mag Tip never had the external ring above the cannelure that the original and second generation heavy for caliber Speer Grand Slam bullets had.
A reference I find handy for vintage bullets is the database at this link.
http://www.shootforum.com/forum/bulletdb.html
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1973-Speer-MAG-TIP-Bullet-Ad-Perfect-Bullet/224023615263
As I previously mentioned, this is similar to, but not the same, as the current production Speer Grand Slam bullets. In same diameter and bullet weights, the Mag Tip has a lower G1 BC. AFAIK, the Speer Mag Tip never had the external ring above the cannelure that the original and second generation heavy for caliber Speer Grand Slam bullets had.
A reference I find handy for vintage bullets is the database at this link.
http://www.shootforum.com/forum/bulletdb.html
The Speer art and text in the advertising shown at this link is a good example for the second style Speer Grand Slam design. No heel lock for the rear core, and a partial internal ring of jacket material to help lock in (retain) the rear core at the top of the rear core.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1988-Speer-Grand-Slam-Bullets-Ad-Punch-Out/224023656736
The photo at the top of the article at this link I believe illustrates a sectioned second generation Speer Grand Slam bullet (fourth from left, third from right) with an undesirable lack of concentricity WRT the rear core and thus probably negatively impact flight ballistics of a bullet that left the factory like this.
https://ronspomeroutdoors.com/blog/the-unbearable-bare-truth-about-bear-bullets/
That might give credence to Speer's claims of increased accuracy with the current production single core composition bullets. After the change to a single lead composition core, this appeared on the Speer website FAQ (it's no longer there).
"Q.
Grand Slam used to have two cores. Now it has one. Why?
A.
Changes in raw materials beyond our control made it hard for us to maintain the previous bond we had between the front and rear cores. We tested alternatives extensively, and found that the single, ternary-alloy core gave better accuracy and increased retained weights by an average of 14 percent."
The Speer advertising visible via this link has an illustration of how the Hot-Cor process reduces risk of core slippage vs their competition (in the ad anyway - YMMV).
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1980-Speer-Bullets-Ad-Not-Everyones-Crazy/224023649560
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1988-Speer-Grand-Slam-Bullets-Ad-Punch-Out/224023656736
The photo at the top of the article at this link I believe illustrates a sectioned second generation Speer Grand Slam bullet (fourth from left, third from right) with an undesirable lack of concentricity WRT the rear core and thus probably negatively impact flight ballistics of a bullet that left the factory like this.
https://ronspomeroutdoors.com/blog/the-unbearable-bare-truth-about-bear-bullets/
That might give credence to Speer's claims of increased accuracy with the current production single core composition bullets. After the change to a single lead composition core, this appeared on the Speer website FAQ (it's no longer there).
"Q.
Grand Slam used to have two cores. Now it has one. Why?
A.
Changes in raw materials beyond our control made it hard for us to maintain the previous bond we had between the front and rear cores. We tested alternatives extensively, and found that the single, ternary-alloy core gave better accuracy and increased retained weights by an average of 14 percent."
The Speer advertising visible via this link has an illustration of how the Hot-Cor process reduces risk of core slippage vs their competition (in the ad anyway - YMMV).
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1980-Speer-Bullets-Ad-Not-Everyones-Crazy/224023649560
Last edited:
DM~
Member
Bottom line is, IF you don't over stress a bullet, there's absolutely NO reason to use the Gran Slam, and if you DO over stress the bullet, Gran Slams aren't good enough!!
Hot Core bullets are NOT bonded, so that process does nothing for controlling expansion of a bullet, it just "sounds good".
All the "lock" bs, does nothing if the bullet is over stressed, and to be honest, many times a cannelure stress' the jacket in that spot, and that is where an over stressed bullet starts to fail. I never cannelured my bullets for that reason.
All of the above use to be common knowledge, are we starting over??
DM
Hot Core bullets are NOT bonded, so that process does nothing for controlling expansion of a bullet, it just "sounds good".
All the "lock" bs, does nothing if the bullet is over stressed, and to be honest, many times a cannelure stress' the jacket in that spot, and that is where an over stressed bullet starts to fail. I never cannelured my bullets for that reason.
All of the above use to be common knowledge, are we starting over??
DM
Much of my shooting is at a range to over stress all of the bullets Ive used. To date i can think of maybe one actual failure, and its one i cant really explain, as the wounds were healed and the recovered bullet would have had to pass thru one or both lungs.
Ive had a number of bullets not open decent size wound channels, most recently being federal fusions, and require repeated hits to down the animal, but no blow up flesh wounds.
I get the desire to not eat a pile of lead chunks tho.
Ive had a number of bullets not open decent size wound channels, most recently being federal fusions, and require repeated hits to down the animal, but no blow up flesh wounds.
I get the desire to not eat a pile of lead chunks tho.
OP
OP
troy fairweather
Member
Really surprising with the fusion, maybe they need to make the tip bigger.
Expansion seemed pretty decent on the one i did manage to retrieve, but it went crosswise thru a 80lb doe at 90-100yds.
A larger tip would probably help, as does hitting bones. These were fired from my .280 and average 3050fps at the muzzle, and the two deer that dropped on the shot had one or both shoulders broken. The one i broke bith shoulders on still managed to make a short dash into the lantana before she got stuck.
The buck took two rounds thru the lungs and bled out about 150yds away. 1/2 or so exit wounds.
A larger tip would probably help, as does hitting bones. These were fired from my .280 and average 3050fps at the muzzle, and the two deer that dropped on the shot had one or both shoulders broken. The one i broke bith shoulders on still managed to make a short dash into the lantana before she got stuck.
The buck took two rounds thru the lungs and bled out about 150yds away. 1/2 or so exit wounds.
Last edited:
OP
OP
troy fairweather
Member
Just it's a little tuff for rib shots, plus these the chance of not hitting a rib at all. I am interested in trying the speer golddot, believe there just about the same bullet or made the same with that plated jacket.
They are.
What they need is to swage a sierra hpbt gk style hollow point into that baby and let the hydraulics do their magic. I'd use the tar outta THAT bullet! I think they definitely work alright if you're smashing a heavy bone as they are though.
A tipped version would be nice.....
Still tho, for a 20 bucks a box round theres a lot to recommend them for larger tougher game i think. Smashing bones on smaller game works pretty well, but i forget that i have to do that.
OP
OP
troy fairweather
Member
I shoulder shoot so they would probably be fine for me.
Gtscotty
Member
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2007
- Messages
- 3,635
The bullet in your photo was a Federal Fusion right? I tried the 120gr Gold Dot this past year, which I believe is similar or perhaps identical construction wise. I had the same thoughts, sample size of one, but caliber hole in slightly larger than caliber hole out, I could see some beginning expansion in the lungs, but not a whole lot. Of course this was a Grendel at 170 yds, so not moving very fast, but several other bullets have an excellent reputation in the same kind of uses (120gr NBT, 123gr SST, 129gr ABLR, etc.). I kind of wonder if the 140gr .264 (or 168gr .308) Gold Dot might provide the right amount of penetration and controlled expansion to be a good elk bullet?
Btw, I believe this is Speer's attempt at a tipped Gold Dot, I'd like to try some but I haven't been able to catch them in stock:
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1021050618
Garandimal
member
No, you are bloviating.
I have been shooting the Current production GS bullets, specifically the 6.5mm/140 gr.(6.5 Swede), and .277/150 gr.(.270 WCF), at MV's b/t 27-2800 fps. respectively, exclusively in those chamberings for a while now.
Good accuracy, good expansion, good wound channels, good penetration.
And no failures.
This from a $0.30 bullet.
You are entitled to your opinion.
But that is all it is.
GR
Yep, Fusion...Ive only hit game with the 140 .280 remington loads (from my 280ai). Performance has been consistent, on 4 animals (that i remember) so far. Distances ranged from a sheep at 50yds broadside, to buck at 100-125yds, so no real distance involved yet.
I havnt hit anything bigger than that Axis buck either, but from what ive seen 162gr .284 amax and 143 .264 eld-xs do to 800-1200lbs feral bulls, id be pretty confident with 140fusions. That one pictured went shoulder to hip thru that doe, and if i remember correctly (i posted an account in a thread a while ago), broke the spine as well.
Id forgotten about those tipped dots!
read about them some time back. Probably worth looking into considering a bit faster expansions all these things need to be awesome.
- Status
