Bonded vs monolithic bullets.

[hps1]

I wasn't pleased with my one foray with ballistic tips, the Winchester CT version, 115 grain in factory. 25-06 Remington ammo. Great at the range but . . .

SPS tech told me the CT silvertip is a BT with a silver plastic tip when I ordered some .338 cal. 200 gr. to try. The ST did the job on a couple of scimitars but passed thru so unable to recover the bullets.

Don't know where I got the idea that the early NBT's had a thinner cup than current ....is this correct? Anyway, I've had very good results with the current "hunting" NBT's in .223, 6mm, .308 & .338 on small to medium size game (hogs to scimitar horn oryx in appropriate calibers). ETA: Appropriate calibers=223 for predators, hogs/deer w/careful placement; 6mm up to deer sized critters & 338 where needed.....have to confess to use of the .338 on many coyotes when its what I had in hand.

Nosler used to make a 100 gr. solid base, lead tipped spitzer which is no longer available in 6mm. I was fortunate enough to get a bunch before discontinued. It was an excellent bullet in 243 WSSM for hogs and deer.

Switched to the NP's in my first magnum many years ago. Only complaint is they are not capable of the benchrest precision that I prefer, but plenty accurate for hunting. Now use NP's in all calibers for game, after experimenting with NBT's & Accubonds, which are super accurate give adequate performance on game, within reason. But, IME, the Accubond is just one notch under the NP in performance on game .

IMO, premium bullets are well worth the difference in cost, considering the limited number actually shot at game. I generally do basic load development w/cheaper bullets, then fine tune and zero with the premiums.

Per bullet cost for my most common hunting calibers nowadays, .308 and .338:
.308...165 gr.
NP List $.88 NP Pro shop $.45 Sierra GK List $.33
.338....210 gr.
NP List $1.17 NP Pro shop $.50 Sierra GK List $.62
AB List $ .94 AB Pro shop $.48
.338....225 gr.
NP List $1.21 NP Pro shop $.51 Sierra GK List $.70
AB List $1.00 AB Pro shop $.50
Never found any difference in Nosler blems in performance and very rarely actually find any blemishes. Prices compare very favorably with the "cheaper" C&C.

Regards,
hps

 

[Garandimal]

Also have a large pile of .270 WCF/140 gr. TSX ammo loaded by Pierce Precision (Ted Nugent brand) that I got on liquidation, at component bullet cost, a while back.

It's not fast enough to be effective past the GS range, but it's reliable for premium hunting and lead-free zones.

Also have a small pile of Federal 130 gr. Trophy Copper acquired on clearance, but haven't got around to shooting much of it.

Consider it a long range round, for mulies and antelope out West, which are now special hunts.




GR

 

[troy fairweather]

Also have a large pile of .270 WCF/140 gr. TSX ammo loaded by Pierce Precision (Ted Nugent brand) that I got on liquidation, at component bullet cost, a while back.

It's not fast enough to be effective past the GS range, but it's reliable for premium hunting and lead-free zones.

Also have a small pile of Federal 130 gr. Trophy Copper acquired on clearance, but haven't got around to shooting much of it.

Consider it a long range round, for mulies and antelope out West, which are now special hunts.




GR

I used the 270win 130 superformance on a few deer and liked it, shot real flat, can't remember the bullet used tho.

 

[Mr. Zorg]

Here's a web link to the October 1977 issue of Field and Stream. There's a relevant and interesting (to me and possibly others participating in this thread) article titled It All Rides On . . . THE BULLET by John Wooters starting on page 100. Verbiage regarding Speer brand bullets are on page 108.

https://books.google.com/books?id=vbjPZg8yMvYC&lpg=PA108&dq=speer bullets heel lock&pg=PA108#v=onepage&q&f=true

Here's my synopsis for those who may experience difficulties with that web link, especially WRT Speer bullets of that period including the original Speer Grand Slam.

The text talks about Speer bullets in general including the Grand Slam, and design details including use of the Hot-Cor process. It mentions the Grand Slam becoming available the previous year, which by magazine publication date would be 1976 instead of 1975 that Chuck Hawks info indicates, but we have no idea as readers what date the article was written with some realistic lag in time between writing and article and the article being published likely.

The construction details of the GS given match the Speer GS advertising literature of that period. Two different composition lead cores with a heel crimp (sic) at the rear of the harder rear core as a mechanical lock feature, and the rear core not being installed using the Hot-Cor process. The softer front core was installed using the Hot-Cor process, annealed after drawing to avoid being brittle.
Cannelures (sic) are also mentioned as mechanical lock features; but we see in Speer's marketing literature there is really only one such cannelure. However, we also know from Speer's marketing literature the heavy for caliber 7mm 175 grain GS has a shallow external ring above the cannelure intended as an expansion stop feature that disappeared soon after ATK purchased Speer, along with the two different composition lead cores and eventually the heel lock in current production GS bullets. I think Mr. Wooters didn't really understand the purpose of that shallow external ring as Speer's marketing materials show that ring on heavy for caliber GS but don't include an explanation of the function of that ring. There's no corresponding inner wall ring at that location so it doesn't (can't) function as a mechanical lock.

Mr. Wooters states he was the first hunter to test Grand Slams on game on a brief African safari. He used the heavy for caliber 7mm 175 grain GS in a rifle chambered for 7mm Remington Magnum. No muzzle velocity figure is given for the load.

No partial internal ring of jacket material at the forward edge of the rear core is mentioned, which again is consistent with then contemporary Speer GS marketing literature for original Speer Grand Slam bullets.

He lists game taken included wildebeest, zebra, and greater kudu. He describes the terminal ballistics as expanding rapidly but penetrating deep, with 70+% weight retention. Mr. Wooters' final sentence in this section states "My evaluation of the Grand Slams is that they are at least the equal of the Nosler Partition, with which they're competitive in price."

I'd say this writeup doesn't show anything about the heel lock being inconclusive. No core slippage or shedding is reported at that time with the specific GS bullets against larger African plains game species fired from a rifle chambered in a popular and widespread magnum cartridge, the 7mm Remington Magnum. At the upper left of page 102 is a photograph of a then contemporary unfired 7mm 175 GS (the shallow external ring forward of the cannelure is seen in this photograph as well as the cannelure) alongside a nicely mushroomed 7mm 175 grain GS fired from the rifle chambered in 7mm Remington Magnum recovered from a Zebra.

Some of the the bullets covered to some extent in this article include the Bitterroot Bonded (noted as the only bonded bullet in the article), Hornady Spire Point (with no interlock ring), Nosler Partition, and Speer Mag Tip. A photograph of sectioned 7mm 175 grain examples of each of these bullets appear on page 100. This photo shows a heel lock present in the sectioned Speer Mag Tip bullet described as "heel crimps" in the photo caption. The sectioned Bitterroot Bonded bullet doesn't have a flat bottom on the lead core, but I've never seen any description of that bullet including a heel lock or heel crimp. It might just be the way the jacket was formed for that particular specimen.

Other bullets mentioned in the article without sectioned photographs include the Winchester Silvertip (not CT Ballistic Silvertip), Remington Bronze Point, Remington Core-lokt, Sierra (in general and specifically. 375 diameter 300 grain spitzer boat tail).

 

[Mr. Zorg]

I used the 270win 130 superformance on a few deer and liked it, shot real flat, can't remember the bullet used tho.

The two options in Hornady Superformance factory ammo in that cartridge with that projectile weight are the lead core SST and the monolithic GMX.

 

[troy fairweather]

The two options in Hornady Superformance factory ammo in that cartridge with that projectile weight are the lead core SST and the monolithic GMX.

Had to be the sst, it was tipped. I guess they were the new style sst. I didn't like the old ones, the amax worked better and was cheaper.

 

[Mr. Zorg]

Here are the photos I mentioned earlier. I'm not a very highly skilled photographer but I think the primary points of similarity and difference relative to this thread come across.

I believe a preface to these photos is in order. When I write about original, second generation, and third generation, those are terms I personally selected to categorize different construction detail variants. Additionally referring to presence and absence of a heel lock in third generation as earlier third generation versus later third generation, respectively. I'll do my best to be consistent with these terms in the photo captions and otherwise use terms Speer used in their marketing literature as much as practical for consistency.

While changes in product packaging aren't necessarily synchronous with a change to the product itself, I find it's a good high probability indicator. The early production batches of a product can be placed in packaging used for a prior design until inventory of prior packaging is exhaustimed.

It's not (ethically) reasonable to access a retail packaged GS bullet to section or otherwise examine to try to determine bullet internal structure details prior to purchasing a package of Speer bullets in general, including GS.

Purchasing a retail package of bullets remotely via internet, telephone, mail order, etc adds an extra degree of difficulty to be able to examine the product internal construction details and quality.

The only GS external construction detail that can help sort out construction era and therefore one category of internal construction details is the presence or absence of the shallow external groove in the jacket ahead of the cannelure only for the .270 150 grain, 7mm 175 grain, and .308 180 grain. The presence of that groove indicates a GS with two different composition lead cores. However if present it generally doesn't indicate if that bullet was constructed with a heel lock for the rear core (original) versus with a partial internal ring mechanical lock at the forward edge of the rear core (second generation). If absent, it generally indicates a single lead composition core (third generation) but doesn't differentiate between having a heel lock (earlier third generation) or lacking a heel lock (later third generation).

Here are packages and labels indicative of original GS bullets with key (to me) differentiati construction details as:

two different composition lead cores
heel lock at base of rear lead core
no partial internal mechanical locking ring of jacket material along the forward edge of the rear core

Top view
Note the transparent orange boxes for diameters less than .338


Bottom view. Key (to me) feature is absence of UPC bar code



End view
Note the Hot-Cor flame symbol although only the front core was installed using the Hot-Cor process



End view with sample of product inside. Note the only sample of these 3 packages with the shallow external groove ahead of the cannelure is the (heavy for caliber) .308 180 grain (heavy for caliber) GS

 

[Mr. Zorg]

Here is a set of photos of GS packaging indicating second generation GS bullets with key (to me) differentiating construction details as follows:

Two different composition lead cores
A partial mechanical locking ring of jacket material at the forward edge of the rear core
No heel lock

Top view
Difference in color schemes on the labels vs originals
Continued use of transparent orange plastic for diameters less than .338




Bottom view

Note the inclusion of UPC bar codes



End View
Note the continued use of the Hot-Cor flame symbol while only the forward core was installed using the Hot-Cor process



End view with a sample of the product inside
Note the shallow external ring forward of the cannelure present on the .308 180 grain (heavy for caliber) and 7mm 175 grain (heavy for caliber) GS bullets

 

[Mr. Zorg]

Here is a set of photos of original, second generation, and third generation packaging of all the same diameter and weight bullet: the 7mm 160 grain GS

Top view
Note third generation packaging is no longer translucent and in this case black. Previous packaging indicating third generation GS was opaque green
Note large differences in the third generation package label. Previous packaging indicating third generation GS was (mostly) green text on a yellow background also omitting the ram head profile art.

Top view




Bottom view
Third generation packaging label continues to include a UPC barcode



End view
Third generation packaging no longer includes the Hot-Cor flame symbol despite the entire single composition lead core being installed using the Hot-Cor process



I didn't take a picture with a product sample from each box as these wouldn't have discernable differentiating features to my eyes.

 

[horsey300]

SPS tech told me the CT silvertip is a BT with a silver plastic tip when I ordered some .338 cal. 200 gr. to try. The ST did the job on a couple of scimitars but passed thru so unable to recover the bullets.

Don't know where I got the idea that the early NBT's had a thinner cup than current ....is this correct? Anyway, I've had very good results with the current "hunting" NBT's in .223, 6mm, .308 & .338 on small to medium size game (hogs to scimitar horn oryx in appropriate calibers). ETA: Appropriate calibers=223 for predators, hogs/deer w/careful placement; 6mm up to deer sized critters & 338 where needed.....have to confess to use of the .338 on many coyotes when its what I had in hand.

Nosler used to make a 100 gr. solid base, lead tipped spitzer which is no longer available in 6mm. I was fortunate enough to get a bunch before discontinued. It was an excellent bullet in 243 WSSM for hogs and deer.

Switched to the NP's in my first magnum many years ago. Only complaint is they are not capable of the benchrest precision that I prefer, but plenty accurate for hunting. Now use NP's in all calibers for game, after experimenting with NBT's & Accubonds, which are super accurate give adequate performance on game, within reason. But, IME, the Accubond is just one notch under the NP in performance on game .

IMO, premium bullets are well worth the difference in cost, considering the limited number actually shot at game. I generally do basic load development w/cheaper bullets, then fine tune and zero with the premiums.

Per bullet cost for my most common hunting calibers nowadays, .308 and .338:
.308...165 gr.
NP List $.88 NP Pro shop $.45 Sierra GK List $.33
.338....210 gr.
NP List $1.17 NP Pro shop $.50 Sierra GK List $.62
AB List $ .94 AB Pro shop $.48
.338....225 gr.
NP List $1.21 NP Pro shop $.51 Sierra GK List $.70
AB List $1.00 AB Pro shop $.50
Never found any difference in Nosler blems in performance and very rarely actually find any blemishes. Prices compare very favorably with the "cheaper" C&C.

Regards,
hps

You are correct, the early btips did have a thinner jacket, nosler intended them for varminting, people used them for larger game, complained, and now the game btips exist with thicker jackets, bearing in mind there are still varmint btips as well, i.e. .224", and even those may be a touch beefier than the btips of old lol.

 

[Mr. Zorg]

Returning to this set of photos

http://kjg-munition.de/Zielwirkung/Geschossbilder.htm

Photos 4, 9, & 32 show the first Nosler Ballistic Tip bullets, the Nosler Solid Base Ballistic Tip design. Like these:

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/867812439

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/866206586

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/865991540

Photo 2 shows an example of the Nosler Solid Base bullet, with a lead tip. Like these:

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/869844504

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/868288851

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/871348239

They seem to have equal, and substantial, jacket thickness profiles to me. But the photographed recovered examples show poor core retention IMO.