Bonded vs monolithic bullets.

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I believe Norma's strategy to avoid core bonding in the tip area of their Oryx bullets, combined with tip skiving, is to readily initiate expansion at impact, at and above their advertised minimum impact expansion velocity of 1500 fps.

Fusion is advertised as having internal tip skiving, same as the Speer Grand Slam and Speer Mag tip bullets are / were advertised to be part of the design. It's unclear to me how Fusion accomplishes this with an electrochemical bonding process, but details on how core bonded bullets are manufactured are scarce as prior noted. Since there is no advertising mentioning the tip of Fusion bullets not being bonded, I would expect that area to be bonded, which may explain observed performance differences vs recovered Norma Oryx bullets for example, which have somewhat similar semi-spitzer profiles.

For standard non-bonded Hot-Cor design bullets including current production Speer Grand Slam bullets the process was advertised by Speer as eliminating any lead oxide film possibly present on lead wire used in other methods of manufacture of competing bullets, as well as any lubricant films between the lead wire and inner jacket walls. The key point here is lead oxide as mentioned is much more soft, and slippery, than non-oxidized lead - and machine lubricant residue speaks for itself. Thus, without core bonding or mechanical lock features (which a cannelure is an example of a not so strong type), there is a friction fit between the lead core and inner jacket wall. After impact of the spinning bullet without core bonding, release of bullet fragments can help reduce the friction grip. The non-bonded jacket when allowed to slip has a lower momentum than the core in terms of mass times velocity. Additionally the jacketed portion experiences drag on the jacket as the outer surface first.

Returning (yes) to this site with the recovered bullets with impact velocity figures alongside sectioned unfired examples, the second generation Speer Grand Slam bullets show expansion ceased at about the same point for the examples numbered 28 and 29, two .308 180 grain examples with impact velocity figures of 777 m/s (2549 fps) and 840 m/s (2756 fps). Also the expansion stopped before reaching the external jacket ring before the cannelure, which also means expansion ceased before peeling back to the cannelure and the partial internal ring of jacket material used as a mechanical lock for the non-Hot-Cor rear lead core section.

http://kjg-munition.de/Zielwirkung/Geschossbilder.htm

Now examine the Nosler Partition examples numbered 13 and 14. These are not bonded core design nor manufactured using the Speer Hot-Cor process. Both of these experienced core - jacket separation with the front core (and it doesn't appear the front core of example 14 was recovered) but the rear core and the mechanical locked jacket around the rear core experienced no slippage, as expected and advertised. Now example 15 doesn't appear to have experienced significant core slippage in the front core section.

The Swift A-Frame bullets with partitioned jacket and bonded front core in examples 16 and 17 don't appear to have experienced any core slippage. As advertised and expected.

All these bullets are of equal unfired diameter and weight, and have a similar range of impact velocities.

What I wonder about Speer is after being purchased by ATK, how much value was placed (and attention paid) to consistently having the "clinically clean" inner jacket surfaces for bullets produced by the Hot-Cor process, including the current production Speer Grand Slam, mentioned in their earlier advertising.

The shear lock set the rear core. No rear core - no shear lock.

The cannelure still exists.

The heel lock is inconclusive, and probably less of a lock than the improved adhesion of the monolithic hot core.

Original and current production GS bullets: (though different calibers)

What happens to the new production bullets is that, when overstressed, the expansion is forced down into the thicker part of the jacket.

When this happens, the thick jacket, instead of pealing back like a HC, resists the moment and instead supports the expanding mushroom.

And then it starts to expand outward with the mushroom, like the bell of a trumpet.

This prys the jacket away from the core to the point of defeating the cannalure and breaking the adhesion well down the core.

The core can come loose.


The original dual-core design had the shear lock far enough down to hold, and the hot core essentially soldered to it via the base core.

The current GS bullet is more accurate due to the improved concentrically of the monolithic hot core, and works the same as the "Mag-Tip" bullet that it should have been called.

It is also considerably less expensive.

At least as good, if not better, and more accurate than the Core-Lokt, which is probably the gold std. for cupNcore bullets.

It both sets up well and retains good weight.

Just know that it is a $0.30 bullet, and not a $0.75-85 bonded or partition.

And treat it accordingly.




GR

I'd enjoy seeing a link posted to the study on the Speer Grand Slam design with heel lock, posted as inconclusive, as Speer advertising indicates that original Speer Grand Slam design feature was used for at least 10 years before the second generation with the partial internal locking ring for the rear core, and was briefly mentioned by Speer again after the ATK purchase and third generation with a single lead composition Hot-Cor process core were marketed. Just because I'm quite familiar both conceptually and experientally with factors in design of experiment, weighting factors assigned to various elements of results, statistical analysis, and so forth, especially if that study included the heel lock in the original Speer Grand Slam design with the rear lead core not installed with the Hot-Cor process as well as the heel lock with the third generation Speer Grand Slam with a single lead core composition installed with the Hot-Cor process.

I can understand the deletion of the shallow external jacket ring above the cannelure on the heavy for caliber Speer Grand Slam bullets, as the examples shown at the web site included again in this post never experienced expansion to that point even at an impact velocity of 2756 fps.
 
I'm liking what I'm seeing with them hammer bullets, there pricy but seem to dump energy but still exit the animal.

@LoonWulf from what I remember they doe with the fusion really plowed thru a lot of stuff in the animal. One thing I've read about the fusion/gold dot jacket can make some weird pressure spikes. Think that's why they stopped making the deep curl.

The terminal accent looks good, pricy and looks hard to find, I don't like how speer/federal keep changing bullets.
 
yeah just went and looked up the old thread, the thing did go a long ways thru that animal. the one i remember being double shoulders looks like it missed them actually.

Those hammers do seem like nice bullets. Out of my price range, but nice.
 
yeah just went and looked up the old thread, the thing did go a long ways thru that animal. the one i remember being double shoulders looks like it missed them actually.

Those hammers do seem like nice bullets. Out of my price range, but nice.
Ya he neat to try them but even there samples are $$$ lol. I like the idea how they work. I hear them mentioned on the African hunting forum a lot.
 
No, you are bloviating.

I have been shooting the Current production GS bullets, specifically the 6.5mm/140 gr.(6.5 Swede), and .277/150 gr.(.270 WCF), at MV's b/t 27-2800 fps. respectively, exclusively in those chamberings for a while now.

Good accuracy, good expansion, good wound channels, good penetration.

And no failures.

This from a $0.30 bullet.

You are entitled to your opinion.

But that is all it is.
GR
I'd be willing to bet I have more actual use of GS's on bigger big game than you, so you are right, it's an opinion, but a VERY EDUCATED opinion... lol

Here's one of my "opinions"... I shot this moose with a .338-06 using 250 grain Gran Slams,

standard.jpg

Shot it two times at 150 yards, yes the moose died, but both GS's came apart. I call that a dead moose with two failed bullets in it...

I have plenty more, where that one came from including a book of notes of thousands of bullets I've tested over the years to make my "opinions"....

DM
 
I'd be willing to bet I have more actual use of GS's on bigger big game than you, so you are right, it's an opinion, but a VERY EDUCATED opinion... lol

Here's one of my "opinions"... I shot this moose with a .338-06 using 250 grain Gran Slams,

View attachment 923768

Shot it two times at 150 yards, yes the moose died, but both GS's came apart. I call that a dead moose with two failed bullets in it...

I have plenty more, where that one came from including a book of notes of thousands of bullets I've tested over the years to make my "opinions"....

DM
Imagine there is an Alaskan subsistence hunter laughing at all of us right now discussing all our fancy expanding bullets when he's got perfectly good results on likely thousands of big game animals with suplus fmj. :rofl:

* edit to remove users name - don't want to drag him in.
 
I'd be willing to bet I have more actual use of GS's on bigger big game than you, so you are right, it's an opinion, but a VERY EDUCATED opinion... lol

Here's one of my "opinions"... I shot this moose with a .338-06 using 250 grain Gran Slams,

View attachment 923768

Shot it two times at 150 yards, yes the moose died, but both GS's came apart. I call that a dead moose with two failed bullets in it...

I have plenty more, where that one came from including a book of notes of thousands of bullets I've tested over the years to make my "opinions"....

DM

How many heavy-for-caliber < .30 cal. current production GS bullets have you shot into test media and game, and at what velocity and range, over the last two years?

Start there.




GR
 
How many heavy-for-caliber < .30 cal. current production GS bullets have you shot into test media and game, and at what velocity and range, over the last two years?
Start there.
GR
OK, I see you just like to argue, and I'm NOT into pizzing matches...

I think the folks here are smart enough to see what's going on, now you want to change the parameters, 30 cal. heavy for caliber... Next you will want the lot number of my bullets and the serial number off the rifle that fired them. lol

Heavy for caliber means the GS' are needed even LESS, and Hot Cores perform even BETTER...

Well, I'm not into your pizzing game, so I'll let you have the last post to me.

And yes, I have tested some current Gran Slams... orig.gif

DM
 
he's got perfectly good results on likely thousands of big game animals with suplus fmj. :rofl:
Put em in the right place, and it dosent matter what you hit em with....said person is very good at putting them in the right place.

That said, FMJs CAN be very lethal and cause pretty significant wounding, they just havent been super consistent from my experience. One of the pig hunting guys here swears by the 62gr fmjs, but he tend to shoot them in the head, shoulders, spine, or hip/pelvis.
I tend to shoot to miss heavy bones, so want a much softer bullet that most of what we are discussing here. The one shot that Ill often intentionally hit bone with, is base of the spine/pelvis on a wounded animal. I also absolutely HATE tracking wounded game, I want it dead where I hit it, or within a reasonable distance, and i want as large an exit wound and as much internal damage as i can get.
Add that most animals i shoot are less than 2' wide, with light bones and you can see some of the WHY of what i use.

Again, theres usually reasons, within reasons, for why folks choose a particular bullet or type of bullet. Im hard pressed to argue against anyones personal experience, simply because they may ask something completely different than I do.
 
Always surprised when Hate is the response to things that work just fine for me.

List includes, but is not limited to:
- .270 WCF
- .40 S&W
- Glock G36 .45 ACP
- Speer GS bullets
- Winchester overrun Q4369 ammo
- Ruger Mini-14 (580 series)
- Ruger 77/357 Carbine
- Kershaw 3650 VOLT II
- Redheads (natural)

All have performed very well for me and have been utterly reliable.


Moving on...




GR
 
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OK, I see you just like to argue, and I'm NOT into pizzing matches...

I think the folks here are smart enough to see what's going on, now you want to change the parameters, 30 cal. heavy for caliber... Next you will want the lot number of my bullets and the serial number off the rifle that fired them. lol

Heavy for caliber means the GS' are needed even LESS, and Hot Cores perform even BETTER...

Well, I'm not into your pizzing game, so I'll let you have the last post to me.

And yes, I have tested some current Gran Slams... View attachment 923840

DM
Dm have you used any monos on the big stuff.
 
Put em in the right place, and it dosent matter what you hit em with....said person is very good at putting them in the right place.

That said, FMJs CAN be very lethal and cause pretty significant wounding, they just havent been super consistent from my experience. One of the pig hunting guys here swears by the 62gr fmjs, but he tend to shoot them in the head, shoulders, spine, or hip/pelvis.
I tend to shoot to miss heavy bones, so want a much softer bullet that most of what we are discussing here. The one shot that Ill often intentionally hit bone with, is base of the spine/pelvis on a wounded animal. I also absolutely HATE tracking wounded game, I want it dead where I hit it, or within a reasonable distance, and i want as large an exit wound and as much internal damage as i can get.
Add that most animals i shoot are less than 2' wide, with light bones and you can see some of the WHY of what i use.

Again, theres usually reasons, within reasons, for why folks choose a particular bullet or type of bullet. Im hard pressed to argue against anyones personal experience, simply because they may ask something completely different than I do.
Ya your spot on about the fmj's. the fmj in the 5.45x39 were some nasty bullets, I remember dad killing some woodchucks with a ak74 he had, those things would tumble just under the skin.

I had a box but lost in the flood, herters way back sold 7x57 ammo, they were literally fmj's with the tips filed off lol.
 
Dosent stop people from using them it seems.

Were not even allowed to shoot them anywhere on state land besides designated ranges. Im actually not sure if its legal or not on private property.
I know some places out west you can't use any bullet with steal, think private property it's fine. Guess to help stop fires.

makes you wonder on the plated bullets, even some of the fedral/speer bullets like the fusion of gold dot the tip is almost covered.
 
I know some places out west you can't use any bullet with steal, think private property it's fine. Guess to help stop fires.

makes you wonder on the plated bullets, even some of the fedral/speer bullets like the fusion of gold dot the tip is almost covered.

Soon to be restricted to "good intentions."

Game will then be required to euthanize themselves on request.

:D




GR
 
My 1971 Plymouth Roadrunner had a big wraparound chrome bumper along the leading edge of about two tons of Detroit heydey iron, never got a crease driving along many two lane Texas roads at a spirited clip.

But I've also seen a semi truck limping in to a distribution center that met a wandering Texas bull just on the other side of a crest in the road at night. I've never had any desire to have such an experience firsthand, and so far, so good.

To put the thread back on firearms track after derailment to good intentions, I'll add some photos later today (Thu) of three generations of Speer Grand Slam bullets in my possession, and I'll keep my words congruent with ones Speer has used in their marketing.

I did a number of web searches using "Speer Grand Slam bullets heel lock inconclusive" and variations of that with no hits to show any such study and / or report published. The Speer Grand Slam bullets were first offered for sale to the public in 1975 (per Chuck Hawks) from what I've seen, and this piece of Speer marketing shows Speer boat tail bullets also incorporated heel lock features in the same time frame the original Speer Grand Slam bullets with a heel lock for the rear core, but no internal partial locking ring for the rear core were being manufactured.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1980-Speer-Boat-Tail-Bullets-Ad-Knows-What-To-Do/402274490744?_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20160908105057&meid=659718001cd64369a9147dae6bbd9677&pid=100675&rk=1&rkt=15&mehot=none&sd=402274490744&itm=402274490744&pmt=1&noa=1&pg=2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci:96746840-b12c-11ea-b2da-3ad98e6ce46e|parentrq:c61b1bd31720a12b553ba930fffa4bac|iid:1

I'm confident with over 3.5 decades of experience now, Speer as an organization has more experience with Speer bullets in general, including Grand Slam bullets, than any other. So we're still left with a statement of those heel locks being inconclusive, but with respect to what? By who? Using what data? And what methodology? And if they had been declared inconclusive (???) when the second generation with a partial internal locking ring for the rear core and no heel lock, why did Speer use the heel lock again when the third generation of Grand Slam bullets entered production, then remove that feature again? Where do any studies exist on this as well as, much less vis-a-vis, the original Speer Grand Slam bullets with the heel lock (and hopefully test info on the Speer boattail bullets manufactured with heel lock features)?

If it's Speer, those details don't appear to be available for public review, so where are such study documents available?

The 2006 Speer brochure available at this link still points out a heel lock in Speer Grand Slam bullets with the single composition lead core.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAKegQIARAC&usg=AOvVaw1FZ6lDYCr0RdyIBe4vUhZM

And this 2010 article.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2010/11/10/revisiting-speers-big-game-bullets/

So when was the inconclusive verdict rendered?
 
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