Rhode Island passes ban on "ghost guns"...

Status
Not open for further replies.
AlexanderA said:
In theory, they could double the rate of fire. But there's a safety issue. Once you pull the trigger and fire the first shot, you are committed to firing the second shot (when you release the trigger). I don't see any way you could abort the second shot. And, a shooter unfamiliar with that particular gun's setup would have no way of knowing this. Installing a binary trigger could thus expose you to legal liability if something goes wrong.

Note: I had a reweld M1 Garand that would sometimes double unexpectedly. This was scary, to say the least.

It shouldn't take legislation for shooters to avoid things like binary triggers. They should do so out of a sense of self-preservation.
Click to expand...

Listening to Tom Gresham's radio program on Sundays, they once brought up binary triggers. This problem was addressed; apparently, if you pull the trigger on a binary-trigger AR-15 and decide not to fire the second shot, you simply flip the safety to "on."
Now, I've never actually used such a rifle or seen one, so I can't personally vouch for this being true .... but I think it makes sense.
 
748 said:
They should serialize hammers and knives.
Click to expand...

That’s would be almost useless. Background checks and a waiting period for people that want to buy a car. Hell, they kill lots more people than guns everyday...
 
Tommygunn said:
This problem was addressed; apparently, if you pull the trigger on a binary-trigger AR-15 and decide not to fire the second shot, you simply flip the safety to "on."
Click to expand...
But how many shooters would have the presence of mind or the knowledge to do this? One big problem that I see with binary triggers is the guns changing hands on the secondary market, and the new owners not being aware exactly how this would work.

All this leads in one direction, for those who are logically inclined: repeal the Hughes Amendment, make proper machine guns affordable again, and watch all these secondary problems go away. But the issue of guns is so polarized that there is no room for logic any more.
 
But how many shooters would have the presence of mind or the knowledge to do this?
Click to expand...

Not sure how much it matters. It’s a mod for people that want to turn money into noise.



If you are blasting away with a semi, you have splits between .1-.2 seconds or so, that just turns into .5-.1 time between shots.

Not like someone with one of those triggers fires one shot and continues to hold dow the trigger for a few minutes.
 
AlexanderA said:
But how many shooters would have the presence of mind or the knowledge to do this? One big problem that I see with binary triggers is the guns changing hands on the secondary market, and the new owners not being aware exactly how this would work.

All this leads in one direction, for those who are logically inclined: repeal the Hughes Amendment, make proper machine guns affordable again, and watch all these secondary problems go away. But the issue of guns is so polarized that there is no room for logic any more.
Click to expand...

You're throwing straw man arguments up. The binary triggers are clearly marked. They sell for a premium. Joe Chucklehead isn't going to just luck into one without knowing what it is.
 
.455_Hunter said:
So what happens if you own an older .22 or cheap shotgun produced sans serial number?
Click to expand...
I was wondering about this myself, there are older guns out there with no serial numbers, so are those banned now too? The legal wording is that the frame has to be made from plastic or from a metal 3D printer for it to not be legal, so I'm going to guess that guns that lack a serial number, but were made in a factory decades ago are still okay.

I was wondering tho about people in RI who have made their own guns, my uncle did machining a long time ago and made his own falling block rifles in .30-30 and .45-70 and I can guarantee they don't have any serial numbers, so is he now in violation of the law?
 
"So what happens if you own an older .22 or cheap shotgun produced sans serial number?"

"I'm going to guess that guns that lack a serial number, but were made in a factory decades ago are still okay."

I would read this language to mean pre-'68 firearms without serial numbers are exempt from the "ghost gun" definition:

"'Ghost gun' means a firearm, including a frame or receiver, that lacks a unique serial number engraved or cased in metal alloy on the frame or receiver by a licensed manufacturer, maker or importer under federal law or markings inaccordance with 27 C.F.R. § 479.102. It does not include a firearm that has been rendered permanently inoperable, or a firearm that is not required to have a serial number in accordance with the Federal Gun Control Act of 1968."

Now that's the way I read it as a native English speaker, but that might not be the way an LEO might understand it. Or, for that matter, a judge. Can you face "the ride?"

Ancillary anecdote. I got inspected by a game warden and he questioned the lack of a serial number on my pre-GCA68 .22 rifle. He had to go back to his truck to radio in on it and I waited about twenty minutes for him to get an answer from HQ and come back to say it was OK.

Now this was a while ago, but goes to show you LEOs can't know every nuance of gun laws, of which there are estimated to be 20,000 of them.

Terry, 230RN
 
Last edited:
General Geoff said:
does is compel home gamers to put a serial number on a completed 80% receiver.
Click to expand...
Well, if that is the language of the enacted code, it just means home-builders have to find an 07FFL to apply the serial.
Which does pose the question of how would an 07 log the arm in for the work to be done?

As solutions in search of problems go, this sounds like an excellent way to increase the activity intended to be decreased.
 
230RN said:
or markings in accordance with 27 C.F.R. § 479.102.
Click to expand...
Edit to add: 230RN did not "say" this, but is quoted for purposes of discussion "said" appears via a Prospero forum template.

Hmm, let's examine that.
27 CFR § 479.102:
§ 479.102 How must firearms be identified?
(a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must legibly identify the firearm as follows:

(1) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch; and

(2) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed), or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered or removed. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes:

(i) The model, if such designation has been made;

(ii) The caliber or gauge;

(iii) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer or maker;

(iv) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the firearm; and

(v) In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in which it was manufactured and the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the importer maintain your place of business. For additional requirements relating to imported firearms, see Customs regulations at 19 CFR part 134.

(b) The depth of all markings required by this section will be measured from the flat surface of the metal and not the peaks or ridges. The height of serial numbers required by paragraph (a)(1) of this section will be measured as the distance between the latitudinal ends of the character impression bottoms (bases).

(c) The Director may authorize other means of identification upon receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that such other identification is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of this part.

(d) In the case of a destructive device, the Director may authorize other means of identifying that weapon upon receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) such a weapon would be dangerous or impracticable.

(e) A firearm frame or receiver that is not a component part of a complete weapon at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of by you must be identified as required by this section.

(f)
(1) Any part defined as a machine gun, muffler, or silencer for the purposes of this part that is not a component part of a complete firearm at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of by you must be identified as required by this section.

(2) The Director may authorize other means of identification of parts defined as machine guns other than frames or receivers and parts defined as mufflers or silencers upon receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that such other identification is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of this part.

(Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number 1140-0050)
[T.D. ATF-461, 66 FR 40601, Aug. 3, 2001, as amended by ATF-11F, 73 FR 57242, Oct. 2, 2008]
Click to expand...
[source: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/479.102]

On my read of that, that looks to be a limitation on licensed manufacturers/importers.
If a person is not one of those FFL, it would seem reasonable that said person would then look to 18 USC 922 for governance. But, as @Frank Ettin wisely cautions, we simply cannot use "common reason" when examining laws.

What strikes me here is that the RI legislature appears to cite CFR possibly out of context. Which strikes me more as the sort of bluder journalists make and not legislators.
 
Last edited:
AlexanderA said:
But how many shooters would have the presence of mind or the knowledge to do this? One big problem that I see with binary triggers is the guns changing hands on the secondary market, and the new owners not being aware exactly how this would work.

All this leads in one direction, for those who are logically inclined: repeal the Hughes Amendment, make proper machine guns affordable again, and watch all these secondary problems go away. But the issue of guns is so polarized that there is no room for logic any more.
Click to expand...


That's a decent point. All I can say is when >>>>> I <<<<< buy a gun, I always make a point to know how it works. That means to the point I have some basic idea of the mechanism inside, even if I couldn't blueprint the entire interior workings. My basic response to "presence of mind or knowledge to do this" would be twofold: 1. GET THE PRESENCE OF MIND AND KNOWLEDGE, and 2. FOR GOD'S SAKE IF YOU WILL NOT OR CANNOT DO #1 ATLEAST KEEP THE MUZZLE AIMED IN A SAFE DIRECTION!!! !

There are always going to be some subset of people who SHOULD NOT own a gun, SHOULD NOT own or drive a car, SHOULD NOT own or fly hang gliders, SHOULD NOT own dogs and SHOUL---- well, you know, whatever.


And repealing the Hughes Amendment is a good idea .... but I ain't holdin' my breath.:ninja:
 
It looks to me that Rhode Island is striking out on its own, without any real understanding of how its plan would work in practice. What they could have done is copy what California has done regarding "ghost guns." But by going off into uncharted territory, they are creating a law that is rife with loopholes. In a cursory reading of this bill, I can see that it's virtually unenforceable. If they really wanted to clamp down on "ghost guns," they needed to get control of them at an earlier stage of distribution, not by waiting until they had been completed. In other words, serial numbers and manufacturers' info would have to be applied to the raw forgings and not when those forgings reached "80%" completion. And from that point forward, they would be treated in the FFL system like finished guns. (Sorry for giving them ideas, but, hey, we need to consider this stuff so we can hoist them on their own petard.)

This also illustrates that a piecemeal, state-by-state approach to "ghost guns" isn't going to work. The antis have to address this on a federal level. Good luck with that.
 
AlexanderA said:
It looks to me that Rhode Island is striking out on its own, without any real understanding of how its plan would work in practice.... by going off into uncharted territory, they are creating a law that is rife with loopholes. In a cursory reading of this bill, I can see that it's virtually unenforceable.

This also illustrates that a piecemeal, state-by-state approach to "ghost guns" isn't going to work.
Click to expand...
Yes.
But it feels good.
 
This doesn't come as a surprise and I would expect to see more of this sort of legislation elsewhere. Did a little research and found where California changed its laws regarding "ghost guns" and manufacturers such as "80% Arms" offers a service where you can mail in your completed AR lower and have them serialize it per ATF guidelines and CA law. They only service their own lowers.

Expect to see something like this passed at the federal level if things go a certain direction this November.
 
The anti gun movement is largely dead.
You know because you didn't need a gun because the police will protect you. Well the same people who don't think we need the gun are trying to convince everyone the police are evil and obviously not to trust them and are allowing mob rule.
I saw an estimate that said there was at least 2.5 million first time gun owners since this stupidity started.
 
Oh, it's not dead, just keeping silent for now. They will keep working at it until they get what they want, or what they really do not want. (Even if they think they do, and can win it.)
 
No, R.I. neu law isn't flawed at all from the anti-2A RI perspective. Lotsa lotsa lot a whole-bunch of air between words...for the local prosecutors to, how shall it be said, ''interpret.''

One county interps this-a-way, another county perp, er, excuse me,prosecutor interps, that-a-way. Both bad mind you, but the one is badder. And of course there WILL be some pros' that tosses the whole thing i.e. simply confiscate the item, ''we ain't doing that in MY jurisdiction.'' And a nice ''we won!'' article in the local .com daily update email...

Then it gets to court, some cases upheld, some modded...

Voila, the very berry short 6 page bill gets ''finished'' , by activist judges.
 
AlexanderA said:
In theory, they could double the rate of fire. But there's a safety issue. Once you pull the trigger and fire the first shot, you are committed to firing the second shot (when you release the trigger). I don't see any way you could abort the second shot. And, a shooter unfamiliar with that particular gun's setup would have no way of knowing this. Installing a binary trigger could thus expose you to legal liability if something goes wrong.

Note: I had a reweld M1 Garand that would sometimes double unexpectedly. This was scary, to say the least.

It shouldn't take legislation for shooters to avoid things like binary triggers. They should do so out of a sense of self-preservation.
Click to expand...

Both the Franklin Armory and Fostech triggers allow you to safe the gun by putting the gun on safe.

With this logic you should never own a semi auto because its too easy to shoot a second shot. I am a believer in starting a kid on a break action or using a pump for jump shooting ducks out of canoes on rivers... but if you can’t operate a binary trigger safely you should probably should reevaluate using any firearm outside Boy Scout style .22 practice.
 
AlexanderA said:
Not remotely the same.
Click to expand...
Eh, takes the same amount of trigger travel. Ive shot one quite a bit when I was selling them and theyre no more dangerous than basically any semi auto pistol.
 
CapnMac remarked,

"What strikes me here is that the RI legislature appears to cite CFR possibly out of context. Which strikes me more as the sort of blunder journalists make and not legislators."

What strikes me here is that it looks more like one of those cheap debating team tactics than a simple blunder: Cite anything which even looks vaguely relevant as "evidence" for your position.

In layman's terms, "if you can't sell 'em with logic, smother 'em with BS."

Reminds me of the technique used in one of the Mark Twain stories where someone showed the kid a book of matches or something similar as "proof" of the story. "And, my boy, to prove it, this is the very book of matches he used to light his pipe at the time." And the kid bought the tale after seeing this powerful evidence.

Makes me wonder if P. T. Barnum and Twain (Sam'l Clemens) knew each other.

Terry, 230RN
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

A
  • Locked
Judge upholds Rhode Island's high-capacity gun magazine ban
2
Replies
36
Views
2K
JN01
JN01
D
  • Locked
Gun Turn In Program for Rhode Island: Private Sales Forbidden
Replies
5
Views
891
r1derbike
R
Cavalier Knight
  • Locked
Rhode Island: Providence Passes Resolution Banning Semi-Automatic Guns
Replies
11
Views
899
k_dawg
K
steve4102
  • Locked
RI's New Anti-Gun Legislation
Replies
9
Views
950
glennv
G
D
  • Locked
(IL) Man who lost gun is candidate for sheriff
Replies
3
Views
566
Polishrifleman
P
Back
Top