More LnL Curiosity. Primer Seating Issues

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Ghost In The Fog said:
At .018 it drags but the shell plate still turns, anything less I can't tell it is dragging.I am ordering the shims and it indeed seems like this is the problem.
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Please let us know when you get them installed if it fixes the problems you’re having? I don’t see those problems on my LNL but of course there are always manufacturing tolerances that can creep into the equation.

I’ll soon have a purpleish (Red+Green+Blue) bench but it would be nice in these forums to just help solve problems without hearing how brand X trumps brand Y in area Z.
 
tightgroup tiger said:
So there is something wrong with the OP's press and we need to find out what it is.
Thank you.

Make sure your shell plate is tight, Hornady directions say to screw the center bolt in by hand, then put the spring on. Then finish tightening the bolt.
I have not done this in this order and I will try it.

What kind of primers are you using?
Sellier & Bellot primers. I have used these since I began reloading. I had 24,000 of them and I am down to 6,800 and starting to panic! LOL. I bought these in 2015 and 2016 in bulk, as many as I could find. Cabela's sold them regularly for &17.95 per 1,000 and many times went on sale for $14.95. CCI and others were $23.99/1,000 at that time. It is my understanding that there was an explosion in the Czechoslovakia Sellier & Bellot factory in late 2015 and in 2016 the primers supply was gone. I keep hoping they will come back.... I have had only two primers that failed to ignite in all of this time. Both times it appeared to be a light strike and put them back in the magazine and they went bang. Before the LnL I did all of my loading on a Lee Classic.
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Much has already been addressed, I used to have similar problems, Hornady advised me to put a dime under it where the dimple was. It helps. I also had a custom punch made that allowed a for a very small amount of extra upward travel. I also used the shims, and the lock washer over the shell plate. Sounds like another member had a better idea than the lock washer.
 
The dimple would not cause that high of a primer. But I will say I put a steel screw in mine by drilling and tapping and have not looked back. Did this many years ago and know 15 others that have done it based on my instructions and love it.

This past week I have read many forum post about reloading presses as it seems more and more shooters are getting into reloading with the ammunition shortage still looming. New users have been eager to understand the different presses on the market many comparing their valued advantages and disadvantages.

Many have complained about the Hornady LnL AP and the primer dimple and the primer system of the Hornady. Owning a Hornady press I spent most of my time reading forums trying to understand the complaints and at the top of the list was priming issue. After 16 thousand rounds my Hornady LnL AP has been flawless. Though it had started to exihbit the dreaded primer punch dimple. This is where the steel primer punch starts to where a considerable sized recession in the press frame. As this started to happen many report that they start to experience high primers from not being fully seated. Though I have never had this issue, I used a little glue to keep a penny in place over this spot.


After reading so many post this week I decided to implement a permanent fix. This would consist of drilling and tapping my Hornady LnL AP frame and putting a hardened steel screw in place. This puts steel on steel when priming on the press now. I did remove the floor plate before starting to give me a little more room to work with.

Below I have provided pictures of all the tools required to do this job in hopes of making this easier for others to follow.

Drill and Tap Set from Lowes, and 1/4 tap with 28 threads per inch. If you so chose you can get a larger set. What matters most is to get the drill bit and tap in the set as both will be the appropriate size.

Here are all the pictures and parts. http://www.dayattherange.com/?p=3884
 
Mr.Revolverguy, thanks for taking the time to put that together. Very clear, and nice that it can be done with tools that most already have or can afford.

Dave
 
There is no reason to thread the base for a steel plug. I just drilled a shallow hole where mine was dimpled and cut a 1/4" steel rod to fit. Add a little epoxy if you want to make it non removable.
 
Ruger 15151 said:
That's caused by the drive hub being taller than the sub-plate. When the drive hub is too high, it holds the shell plate too far above the sub plate. Because the primer seating stem only has a fixed amount of travel, the case isn't held close enough to allow for full primer seating. Some don't have any issues out of the box while other guys just prime off the press because they haven't found a fix for the issue. Unfortunately, Hornady should have tighter tolerances which would prevent this issue from happening.
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Alright- Here is my update and a link to two short videos.

@Ruger 15151 and all who are interested.
I purchased the 25220 shims per your excellent link to your fix. I had time today to follow your direction and install the shims. I have calipers but not an accurate way to measure the drive hub/shell plate as shown in your post. I figured because of the steps needed to take it apart and then reassemble to see if it worked I would start on the thicker side and work down with the hopes of finding the right shim thickness. My thinking was if it was too big I would find where the shims worked best instead of starting small and working up and then having to back it off. Possibly saving a step.

I put in the .006 and .007 shims to make one .013 shim. Greased and reassembled and the shell plate drug from the first pull off the handle. I ran the shell plate a couple of revolutions and then took it apart and reduced the .013 to the .006 and .005 for a shim of .011
This time 4 of the stations worked perfect and it hangs up on the 5th as shown by the blue sharpie mark on the shell plate. The shell plate centers on the primer hole on all 4 but on the 5th it does not. The handle moves freely and returns to the top position on the 4 but on the 5th it hangs up I have to assist it to get it to move.
Now here is my question: I can and will reduce the shim to .010 and continue the process BUT doesn't this indicate that there is something bent or seriously out of alignment on the drive hub/drive shaft/shell plate?
Wouldn't this explain the high primers? 3.5 stations seat fine and possibly the 4th sometimes and 5th doesn't?

I called Hornady last week just to see if they would recognize there is a problem. Matt said he had never heard of anything like this. Checking the internet and forms this problem goes back to 2012.
To see the videos copy the code and click go.

Code: 
https://1drv.ms/v/s!Aq9YRjwoce63kn1nBZkVPko0V0aT?e=phceiI
Code: 
https://1drv.ms/v/s!Aq9YRjwoce63kn7b8FAkpmT-6W9E?e=gNuiRP
 
If 1 out of 5 is not aligning up, indicates the base was not indexed properly for the detents, or the shell plate may be off. If you have another shell plate try it. If the results are the same the base needs to be replaced. This should not impact seating primers unless your #5 is 1.5.

Since it's dragging only on 1 position, check the base plate and shell plate with a metal straight edge and see if there flat. Check in multiple directions.
 
I watched the videos, in your opening post you said this is with 9mms only.

Have you loaded other calibers with it and they didn't have this problem?

If that's the case the shell plate has to be warped. And yes, if the plate doesn't come in time when priming the cases, the case can show high primers.
 
tightgroup tiger said:
I watched the videos, in your opening post you said this is with 9mms only.

Have you loaded other calibers with it and they didn't have this problem?

If that's the case the shell plate has to be warped. And yes, if the plate doesn't come in time when priming the cases, the case can show high primers.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your reply.
I have only loaded 9MM. I have not started on other calibers yet because I can't get this one to work correctly.
Before adding the shims, the primers did line up with the shell plate timing and only partially seated. If the timing was as shown in the video after shimming I believe it would crush the primers or not allow them to seat.
 
Ghost In The Fog said:
I would be willing to pay to send my press to someone who could tune it perfectly and send it back. Anyone know a place?
Thank you again. I'll post the results as I try this.
Click to expand...

It's funny to me that you brought that up I really like playing with these presses and have thought a lot about doing exactly that. I actually bought a lightly used press rebuilt it, tuned it and sold it to a friend. The problem I see is when you get shipping two ways and then charge anything at all for your time and parts I'm not sure it is a good value for the buyer. If you were doing it local it might make more sense.
 
The shell plate on my press moves up and down about .010" and I can still flatten a primer with it if I want to in all 5 stations. I think your shell plate is no good, is this a new press or is it used?
How old is it?
 
tightgroup tiger said:
The shell plate on my press moves up and down about .010" and I can still flatten a primer with it if I want to in all 5 stations. I think your shell plate is no good, is this a new press or is it used?
How old is it?
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It was purchased new at Cabela's last April- April 2019.
The shell plate sure would be an easy fix it that's all it is.
 
Allen One1 said:
It's funny to me that you brought that up I really like playing with these presses and have thought a lot about doing exactly that. I actually bought a lightly used press rebuilt it, tuned it and sold it to a friend. The problem I see is when you get shipping two ways and then charge anything at all for your time and parts I'm not sure it is a good value for the buyer. If you were doing it local it might make more sense.
Click to expand...

I don't think it is always about the money. I have thousands of dollars in to this if you were to put a dollar amount to my time that I have spent screwing with this thing. I just want it to work correctly without the endless problems. It is inexcusable to me to have to do all of this. Sell it like you advertise it. Although it does somewhat work it is not right. The huge OAL spread and having to measure constantly, spilled powder, PTX issues, Powder measure turning in the bushing and having to shim it to keep it tight and on and on.
I would seriously consider paying to get it right. Could be a heck of a business.
I mentioned in an earlier post that they should sell a standard model where you pay your money and you take your chances or offer a press that is guaranteed to work out of the box. In hindsight, I would have paid whatever that cost would be. Heck, I would pay it now.
20/20 ya know?
 
Update:
My press is on a FedEx truck on the way to Nebraska to have a little visit with the Hornady quality control crew.
I installed the shims as in the previous posts. Went from .013 to .011 and then to .009 The shell plate still hung up badly on the sub plate. 4 stations rotate free and easy with less snapping into place and the 5th hangs up. I called Hornady and sent them videos. They were stumped. I suggested that something was bent causing it to hang up on only one station, what else could it be? They were not so receptive but I persisted. They guided me over the phone of adjusting the left pawl told me to take the shims out and prime some cases and let them know how that went.
I did and I did. Still really bad high primers. I called again and persisted with my questions. They asked me if it was specific locations on the shell plate and I marked each opening on the shell plate as the primers were not seated and hung up. It was all 5. Out of 100 cases primed 22 were high. By high I mean .02 to .015. High.
Hornady was kind and felt sorry for me and told me to send it in. That was yesterday- so hopefully next week they will call and tell me they figured it out and have it working right.
I just don't know what else to do.
 
Not to be snarky....but priming issues are the reason I took the hit and dumped my LnL AP presses.

I should have known better. Buy once, cry once. Blue is better IMHO.
 
Texas10mm said:
Not to be snarky....but priming issues are the reason I took the hit and dumped my LnL AP presses.

I should have known better. Buy once, cry once. Blue is better IMHO.
Click to expand...

I don't think you are snarky at all.
I have heard of problems with Blue as well. Is it really that much better out of the box? A good friend of mine has a 550 and said it worked perfectly from day one. Another buddy has a 650 that took months of fiddling with and aftermarket modifications but now works fine.
I don't mind making the switch if Hornady can't resolve my issues but I want something that will work properly out of the box and not take a year and a half of frustration and still not have it right. I might as well just go back to my Lee Classic. It was slow but worked great. I am only $550 bucks into the LnL but I have thousands of dollars of my time into this.
 
The LNL priming system suffers from poor leverage. I've shimmed my press so the shell plate has only about two thousandths of clearance between the sub plate. When seating a primer, the primer punch nut on the bottom of the sub plate does not bottom against the frame even with considerable force applied to the lever. So when priming, the only thing preventing the primer punch nut from bottoming is the inherent force against the primer in the case primer pocket.

Given all that, sometimes a primer will refuse to seat below flush without excessive force on the handle. But take that same case and primer out of the press and a cheap hand primer will seat the primer below flush with light thumb pressure.

I carefully choose case and primer brands to minimize primer seating issues with my LNL. It's a bit of a hassle, but it is somewhat workable.

With a few fixes, the LNL could be a better than OK press at a great price.
 
Sorry some of you guys can't get the LnLAP to work for you. I've had mine for nearly 10 years and have loaded over 100,000 rounds on it. Mostly 40/9/45/38 but several hundred .308 and .223. Even with the dimple on the cast iron plate where the primer button pushes, I can easily get my primers to seat flush or beyond flush without any problems. The key to getting it right is proper pawl timing, clean primer shuttle track and most importantly ensure a snug but not too tight shell plate screw. You do need to clean the primer seating button once in a while to make sure powder flakes aren't hanging it up.
 
I don't know what's wrong with his, he said the nut on his primer assy doesn't touch the frame of his machine when the plate is clear down.
On my LNL-AP, that is the final stop.

Makes me wonder if the bracket on the left side of the press that holds the accro bin is hitting the bottom of the sub plate when he pulls the ram down. That's the only thing that could stop the ram from coming down, except for a 9mm or .380 case stuck under the sub-assy, but that is pretty obvious.

As far as something dragging under the shell plate, there are only two things under there, the spring and the primer punch assy. Dirt and grit will get into that assy and hold the punch up a little to make it drag on the bottom of the shell plate. Poor housekeeping or the guide rod is out of whack, on the press is usually why someone has trouble with the primer system on one of these presses.
I'm anxious to see what Hornady says was wrong with his press when they send it back to him.
 
Ghost In The Fog said:
I don't think you are snarky at all.
I have heard of problems with Blue as well. Is it really that much better out of the box? A good friend of mine has a 550 and said it worked perfectly from day one. Another buddy has a 650 that took months of fiddling with and aftermarket modifications but now works fine.
I don't mind making the switch if Hornady can't resolve my issues but I want something that will work properly out of the box and not take a year and a half of frustration and still not have it right. I might as well just go back to my Lee Classic. It was slow but worked great. I am only $550 bucks into the LnL but I have thousands of dollars of my time into this.
Click to expand...

Both of my 650's worked out of the box. The most important thing....RTFM.
 
peels said:
The reason is that the spring washer made shell plate deflection much worse! That is when I experimented with a flanged bolt. I have been happily priming on the LNL since I started using the flange bolt with a large fender washer.
One day I may taste some blue koolaid, but prob not anytime soon.
Click to expand...

You are spot on regarding the lock washer increasing deflection! Good catch

BTW: Red Kool -Aid still tastes just fine!
 
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