Tulammo in ptr91 insident. Anybody have something like this happen

I personally won’t shoot any more steel cased .308 after having case ruptures with Herters/Tula.

I would not shoot any steel cased ammo in any fluted chamber rifle. Steel does not expand and contract at the same rate as brass, and the fluting in the chamber (as well as the roller delayed action) can cause mistiming of the action as a result.

From the looks of the two cases in the cinder block, your chamber was very dirty when you fired them. Also from your description of what happened, you may have an obstruction in the neck or freebore which is causing a dangerous rise in pressure with steel case, but not brass. I'd investigate further before I shot it again.

I thought PTR's had chamber fluting? If so, those cases don't. Maybe its not high pressure, but early extraction.

she doesn't like steel case ammo ! that blown primer shows signs of overpressure markings. Yes maybe the chamber fluted not retarding the bolt.

The marks might be superficial, but the flutes are essential for correct timing on these guns; as I mentioned before, steel cased ammo will cause timing issues, and crud will build up rapidly as a result, causing the malfunction you encountered. It is the main reason I have never bought a CETME/PTR-91/H-K type gun; I did the research when considering a CETME, and found steel cases were not recommended in these guns, which defeated the "SHTF" aspect I was looking for of being able to gobble up any ammo in that caliber I might get a hold of in a pinch. Same reason I do not own a Kel-Tec SUB2000 anymore, nor the .223 Handi-Rifles I had some years ago. Several ammo shortages since then, my methodology has proven right for me.

When shooting brass ammo in a fluted chamber, it’s certainly more than superficial. At least it was with the CETME I used to own, and the cheap South African surplus I shot through it.

Did any Russian-designed rifles have fluted chambers?
Offhand, I can't think of any commercial (Russian) rifles chambered in .308.

vzenman: Possibly that batch of Tula .308 was improperly stored by a previous owner?

Ignition Override said:

Did any Russian-designed rifles have fluted chambers?
Offhand, I can't think of any commercial (Russian) rifles chambered in .308.

vzenman: Possibly that batch of Tula .308 was improperly stored by a previous owner?

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The MOLOT VEPR was made in .308, as well as 7.62x54R. It does not have fluted chambers in either caliber.

One thing to check is shallow flutes. In rare cases the flutes are too shallow and foul quickly causing cases to stick in the chamber. I shot some steel cased in my CETME years ago. Ran fine and the brass looked like every other piece run through the rifle. Charred lines and 60 yards from where I shot it.

I cant say what causing it but all that brass looks high pressure. The primers are cratered in the pics. Blowing primers is obviously high pressure. I would check what my primers look like on good known rounds after shooting them. If the primers are catered or piercing call PTR. They should fix it.

IMHO Wolf ammo is garbage (Tulamo and polymer steel cased included). I have tried it and it only works well in the SKS, AK, Makarov and combloc designed firearms. I have tried Wolf/Tula in .223, .308, .40, 7.62x39, 9mm mak and luger. I won't use it in anything other than com blocs. Some have good experiences with it too but be careful.

Ive run tulammo through my C308 and not had that issue. Cases had light flute indentions. Though admittedly I havent shot much through it.

I had a 17hmr round go pfft in a marlin bolt gun once. Bullet made it only half an inch from the chamber. And the inside of the spent casing had a stalagmite of crystalized powder in it.

I’ve run Tula thru my PTR as well and not had any problems with cycling or blown primers.

I’d not shoot any more of that lot of ammo and call the importer to ask for a refund. It could very well be a bad lot of ammo that you’ve bought.

BSW

All I know is I had too many problems with Tulammo in my Bulgarian AK74 as well as other rifle and pistols that I don't buy it anymore.

Except for my mosin, but that's different haha.

I'd rather shoot janky gun show reloads than Tulammo

vzenmn said:

I think your right. I can't find any spent brass cases shot through my rifle as the lion share of them have been Berdan primed surplus and had no reason to save them. But remember they had more distinct flute marks the steel. Still tearing through my empty brass stash to find one to confirm. The problem happened yesterday at the 6th or 7th round I first shot through the rifle. And as said before I cleaned the chamber before taking to the range.
The Tulammo was bought at either Walmart or Academy a couple years ago and been stored in my ac controlled house. Unfortunately I loaded the mags with them last week ( was supposed to shoot last weekend but something came up) and the boxes went in the trash. Be nice to know the lot #.
I'm thinking I got a round with either a defective primer or got over charged at the factory. The bullets are getting pulled and recycled and cases and powder are getting trashed.

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I'd just shoot them in a non-fluted chambered gun (Bolt action, M1A, AR10, etc.) or give trade them to a friend who has one of those if I didn't, but recycling the bullets works, too.

The reason why the problem didn't happen until 6 or 7 rounds in is that the steel cases don't expand into the flutes, nor stay in them for the time required to allow the pressure to drop enough for correct function, (but fortunately enough for 'safe' operation!) so there is still burning powder and gunk floating in the barrel when the bolt unlocks, and that gets back into the chamber. The gun will still function for a short while, but eventually that crap builds up and will cause what happened. The reason it did function again after you switched to the Portuguese surplus brass, is that first brass case went into the flutes, and pulled enough of the gunk out of them (as well as the rest of the chamber) to function correctly, (somewhat; I'd bet extraction was a bit sticky on that one, and chamber pressure was on the high side!) and the rest of them continued to do so; brass cases are much more forgiving of a dirty chamber than steel, which is why barrels on most semi-autos made in the Com Bloc (where most steel cased-ammo was/is made) were chrome lined. It is also why there are no flute makes on the two steel cases on the cinder block, instead they have the 'pock-marked' look that a dirty chamber leaves on brass or steel cases in a non-fluted chamber.

After action analysis conclusion: Don't use steel cased ammo in fluted chambers. It may work fine, but is highly more likely to cause malfunctions.

briansmithwins said:

I’ve run Tula thru my PTR as well and not had any problems with cycling or blown primers.

I’d not shoot any more of that lot of ammo and call the importer to ask for a refund. It could very well be a bad lot of ammo that you’ve bought.

BSW

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True; sounds like there certainly were problems with the ammo, ripping bullets out of cases during a manual extraction of a stuck round isn't normal, but as he already said he didn't keep the boxes, and thus no lot #'s. That ship has sailed. I'd rather not trust the metallurgy at Tula with this type of action myself. With steel cased ammo things have less of a 'window' (brass is more forgiving) for a complicated action like the PTR-91 rifle to operate correctly. Almost all the major problems I've had with FTF & FTE , and a couple Ka-Booms to boot, have been with steel cased ammo. (And that was with less complicated actions; SUB2000 and H&R handi-rilfe) I stick to using it in AR's, AK's, SKS's, and Mosins. Just my experience. As I mentioned, I did a lot of research on the CETME/PTR-91/H-K riles when I was considering buying one, and found vzenmn's experience is far from uncommon. Between that and the tweaking of rollers (also could be a cause; Glockula's post made me look at the two primers in post #8, they are definitely a sign of high pressure- again, brass is more forgiving of such things in these rifles) to get the gun set to work with most types of ammo, I passed and started collecting Mosins instead, and built an AK for a semi-auto, and have since added AR's which I shoot steel cased from with no problem.

Combloc ammo for combloc guns.

Freedom ammo for 'Murica guns! (and their allies, lol).

Basically the CETME/H-K/PTR-91 is overengineered, as the Teutonics are wont to do. It is the Harley Panhead of rifles, there are so many little things that if not just right, will cause problems. Also shares the Panheads characteristics of being almost worshiped by a cult who swallowed the Kool-AId (We all remember the H-K ad with the guy in the stream peeking out from behind a log...) and basically if you own one, you'd better be a gunsmith, have something to barter to one, or lots of $$$, to kept it running, just as with a Harley, you'd better know how to wrench or be prepared to shell out the $$$. (Yes, I owned Harleys before- and yes I wrenched on mine, as I do my own guns. I have never owned an H-K 91 type rifle, because I did the research first.)

entropy said:

True; sounds like there certainly were problems with the ammo, ripping bullets out of cases during a manual extraction of a stuck round isn't normal, but as he already said he didn't keep the boxes, and thus no lot #'

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The description is exactly what I would expect if the bullet was jamming into the lands and setting back in the case causing over-pressure. Also possible the case neck itself is longer and catching inside the lead, essentially creating a super crimp. Either would cause bad pressure issues. Would lock up tight for sure and very difficult to open and extract a live round. I would visually compare an unfired steel round to a known good brass and look for length differences in those areas.

JeeperCreeper said:

All I know is I had too many problems with Tulammo in my Bulgarian AK74 as well as other rifle and pistols that I don't buy it anymore

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That's extremely odd for a 74, unless by chance you have a build on an off-spec waffenwerks receiver (JRA is notorious for these). They made a ton of them slightly wider than spec with rails welded a couple mm too high to properly line up with barrel centerline. Created issues with bolt over-travel the mag (not stripping correctly, double feeds, rounds catching under the bolt, or partial feeding into the chamber tipped up and caught by the bolt face). People tried to fix by moving the mag catch up or using modified mags but it's not a fix for off spec rails. Rebuild on a spec receiver is only real solution.

illinoisburt said:

That's extremely odd for a 74, unless by chance you have a build on an off-spec waffenwerks receiver (JRA is notorious for these). They made a ton of them slightly wider than spec with rails welded a couple mm too high to properly line up with barrel centerline. Created issues with bolt over-travel the mag (not stripping correctly, double feeds, rounds catching under the bolt, or partial feeding into the chamber tipped up and caught by the bolt face). People tried to fix by moving the mag catch up or using modified mags but it's not a fix for off spec rails. Rebuild on a spec receiver is only real solution.

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It actually is a Waffen, I got it way back in 2011 or 2012. I was paranoid about having one of the issues when they started doing in-house stuff, which I learned about after I got mine.

I can't remember if mine has the Nodak receiver and Green mountain barrel (I think that's what the early Waffens ran). But, it is within spec as far as I know.

It runs like a champ and is surprisingly accurate using Wolf, or Bear, or any ammo OTHER than Tulammo.

I ran probably about 300-500 runs off Tulammo through it and got a sticky chamber and had carbon build up inside the gas/piston area that looked like I had 30,000-50,000 rounds. Took two days of dental picks and carbon cleaner to get it looking new again.

I think Tulammo is just foul and I joke that they use diesel fuel and charcoal for gun powder.

So I just don't run it. My ARs also aren't fans of it in .223 and in 9mm I had erratic ejection.

So the Tulammo is out only for my Mosin, and that's only when I'm super desperate for any.

When I had my Cetme, I was a member of Cetmeforum. I recall people with steel case ammo problems, and the roller lock gurus warned against using it.
My CETME never gave me a problem. It was accurate, and a blast to shoot. However, there was a period when cheap surplus 7.62 NATO dried up, and I sold. I think the surplus S African ammo was $40 for 200rds back then.
As for AK74’s, all I shoot is 7n6.

Yup that's where I found out about the steel case problems also.