hammerklavier
Member
Don't hammer on the round, it could blow up the whole rifle.
Big Trouble... DPMS LR-308 Jammed .. Stuck .. HELP
- Thread starter Evergreen
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Evergreen
Member
Thanks for all the good advice and care from everyone here. I am just bringing the damn thing to the gunsmith. THis is more risk and headache than I care to bear.
As far as Mag's advice, I would have followed it, but he gave me this advice after I already disassembled the upper from the lower assembly. I seperated the two at the range and the bolt extended outward after I and another gentleman were fiddling with it.
I am going to a local gunsmith who seems like he knows his stuff. He has had a shop for a long time in the area and was suggested by a person at my range.
I will let you know what happens. I am just hoping to God that my gun will be in one piece, ready to shoot after the round gets out of there. I think I caused more damage trying to fix it, then I did jamming it.
Yes, I am in a crowded area and I cannot risk a round going off into my neighbor's house.
And, I will never use mil-surplus ammo in my rifles again. Maybe I will save some for my Saiga .308, but not my DPMS 308's. NEVER AGAIN. I will sell all my mil surplus ammo and go search for some factory stuff. Reloading is next on the agenda.
As far as Mag's advice, I would have followed it, but he gave me this advice after I already disassembled the upper from the lower assembly. I seperated the two at the range and the bolt extended outward after I and another gentleman were fiddling with it.
I am going to a local gunsmith who seems like he knows his stuff. He has had a shop for a long time in the area and was suggested by a person at my range.
I will let you know what happens. I am just hoping to God that my gun will be in one piece, ready to shoot after the round gets out of there. I think I caused more damage trying to fix it, then I did jamming it.
Yes, I am in a crowded area and I cannot risk a round going off into my neighbor's house.
And, I will never use mil-surplus ammo in my rifles again. Maybe I will save some for my Saiga .308, but not my DPMS 308's. NEVER AGAIN. I will sell all my mil surplus ammo and go search for some factory stuff. Reloading is next on the agenda.
SammyIamToday
Member
If you have a Saiga 308, I'd keep the mil-surp for that. Those things will eat anything.
I don't understand all this "bang the butt on a hard surface" stuff. 
The easiest, safest, gentlest way to get the bolt back is to use a brass punch, and a decent hammer. I've seen my friend (a range officer) do this many times to ARs that have stuck bolts ... usually from defective/sloppy/ignorant reloads/reloaders. Every AR bolt I have or have seen has a suitable spot to place the punch (see arrow) and a few gentle or firm taps with a hammer gets the bolt back. I sure as hell won't be banging any of my rifles on the ground. :banghead:
The easiest, safest, gentlest way to get the bolt back is to use a brass punch, and a decent hammer. I've seen my friend (a range officer) do this many times to ARs that have stuck bolts ... usually from defective/sloppy/ignorant reloads/reloaders. Every AR bolt I have or have seen has a suitable spot to place the punch (see arrow) and a few gentle or firm taps with a hammer gets the bolt back. I sure as hell won't be banging any of my rifles on the ground. :banghead:
tkcomer
Member
This has happened to me on my DPMS LR-308B. Smacking the butt on the ground doesn't seem to work a lot of times on a 308. You've got the upper separated from the lower. You can see the bottom of the bolt. You can use a screwdriver, but a wooden dowel is better to keep from scratching up the bolt. Put it on the lower edge of the bottom of the bolt. Now tap with a hammer on whatever you're using. The bolt will unlock and eject the round. Don't use a light hammer to do this. Use a regular hammer. It will unlock. But it will take a few raps of the hammer. After you get the round out, check to see if the gun says 308 or 7.62 on the receiver. If it says 308, they don't like mil-surp that much. And DPMS says it takes about 200 rounds to break the gun in. Make sure that bolt is heavily lubed until the gun is broken in. I could say more, but this should put you back in action. Without a gunsmith.
the real mags said:
BS!!! If you want to bash your butt on the ground, knock yourself out. If I had a stuck bolt and my life depended on it (such as under battle conditions) then perhaps I'd do it. If I'm at the range and it happens I'll use a brass punch the same way a good gunsmith would do it to a customer's rifle.
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Steve Marshall
Member
Mag gave you good advice. As to the ammunition: Portuguese surplus is as good as it gets. We will flog the headspace horse once more. The measurement to the shoulder on ANY .308 or 7.62x51 cartridge is 1.627" to 1.634". The headspace of the rifle should be 1.630" to 1.640" in a civilian rifle. Note the potential of .004" interference fit. If your rifle is on or under minimum headspace you MIGHT have a small problem. In reality, most true military rifles so chambered use some of the tolerance. As an example of a commercial rifle, my M1A has a headspace of 1.632" and the Portuguese surplus I bought was much closer to 1.630". And yes, I took a large sample. The highest one I got in a Wilson cartridge gage and a 1/10th drop indicator was 1.631. From the sound of it, using your description of brass shavings on the cartridge case or bullet is that you have a defective magazine coupled with perhaps some gunk in the chamber. The last post I read was the probably the best you can do without bringing it to a smith. You won't hurt the bolt with the brass drift. All you probably need is just a little more force than you've been using applied in the correct vector. By the way, my M1A has about 11,000 rounds through it. And even though it has never been cleaned or even field stripped, still shoots about 3 or 4 MOA 10 shot groups with Portuguese surplus, iron sights and 59 year old eyes.
Grey Morel
Member
Some of you are taking this to extremes.
The brass punch idea that 1858 posted is a wonderful and less violent approach, but its not field serviceable. (unless you carry a set of punches and a mallet around with you)
Mags original suggestion IS the accepted field remedy for fixing this problem.
When you get your gun back from the smith, shoot some good commercial brass through it and report back to us.
The brass punch idea that 1858 posted is a wonderful and less violent approach, but its not field serviceable. (unless you carry a set of punches and a mallet around with you)
Mags original suggestion IS the accepted field remedy for fixing this problem.
When you get your gun back from the smith, shoot some good commercial brass through it and report back to us.
Grey Morel said:
That's what I don't get ... who's talking about "field" conditions. If you're at the range or back at home with a stuck bolt, why are you even thinking about an extreme technique that can @#$% up a scope, damage a butt, or place uneccessary stress on numerous parts of the rifle? I know a number of shooters that have a small hammer and brass punch in their range bag for this very contingency.
I'm on a bit of a rant today but talking of field conditions, you'd better have your **** together BEFORE you head off into the field. Heading off on a hunting trip or weekend shoot with loads that you've never tried before is moronic. I see guys at matches with all kinds of issues because they decided to shoot "new" reloads for the first time at a match ... it's just mind boggling.
tkcomer
Member
I'm not sure if I'd punch it where the pic shows. I'd rather take the upper off and punch the back of the bolt from there, from underneath the receiver. With the top off, at least the you're not punching on a bolt with the hammer against the firing pin. Plus, no spring pressure from the buffer pushing against it. And the scratches, if any, will be where you can't see them. No offense.
WyrTwister
Member
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2003
- Messages
- 80
You have cleaned the rifle ( including the chamber and the bolt & bolt carrier group ) after every time you have shot it ?
You have lubed the rifle ( including the bolt & bolt carrier group ) after every time you have shot it ?
What kind of lube ?
How many rounds down the tube ( rounds fired ) ?
If you need a brass punch at the range , pick up a clean piece of empty brass . I have done this many times to drift a sight one direction or other ( to zero for windage on a Mauser ) .
I have done this on a .223 AR , that has a chamber too tight to chamber my reloads , that shoot fine in my other AR's .
As described , with the upper separated from the lower , use the brass punch on the bottom side of the bolt . Brass will not damage the steel Bolt Carrier . But if you let it slip , it might damage aluminum .
God bless
Wyr
You have lubed the rifle ( including the bolt & bolt carrier group ) after every time you have shot it ?
What kind of lube ?
How many rounds down the tube ( rounds fired ) ?
If you need a brass punch at the range , pick up a clean piece of empty brass . I have done this many times to drift a sight one direction or other ( to zero for windage on a Mauser ) .
I have done this on a .223 AR , that has a chamber too tight to chamber my reloads , that shoot fine in my other AR's .
As described , with the upper separated from the lower , use the brass punch on the bottom side of the bolt . Brass will not damage the steel Bolt Carrier . But if you let it slip , it might damage aluminum .
God bless
Wyr
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tkcomer said:
Personally I'd have no problem tapping the bolt carrier in the location shown but I agree 100% that you have more options as to where to place the punch if the upper is separated from the lower. If I were the OP I'd follow your recommendation and try to find a good spot on the underside of the bolt carrier but I wouldn't be worrying about a brass punch scratching a steel bolt. As I mentioned, most stuck bolts/carriers that I've seen have broken free with just a few light to medium taps of the hammer. As long as you keep the punch on the bolt carrier you won't damage anything.
The rifle was designed to be cleared in the matter I described PERIOD for that type of malfunction. Not to be hammered out with a brass punch or wooden dowel however that is the only option now since the upper is removed from the lower.
BADUNAME37
Member
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2008
- Messages
- 4,434
The rifle is probably also designed so if you were to fall onto it and get it full of sand and gravel, you could take it to the riverbank nearby and dunk it a few times to eliminate of all the gravel.
However, unless I am in a "war-situation" with my M4, I am not about to dunk my gun in the river, thank you.
However, unless I am in a "war-situation" with my M4, I am not about to dunk my gun in the river, thank you.
tjj
Member
I've seen this happen twice to a buddy's LR 308. He was using his handloaded ammo. After clearing the jam he tried some of mine and it did the same thing. Had to clear the jam again. He then tried with another buddy's handloads that were loaded with factory new and primed Remington casings and they worked fine. Apparently the chamber on the LR 308 was pretty tight. All three of us have since "adjusted" our full length sizing dies a few thousandths. No more chambering problems on any of our LR's. My LR 308 never had a failure to chamber so I guess I may not have as tight a chamber but the rifle has shot several 5 shot sub MOA group at 100yds so it's good to go.
I'm a little late in posting to give Evergreen any help I'm afraid. We were concerned about keeping the muzzle down range so we kept the rifle on the rest and while one person pulled back hard on the charging handle the second person used a rubber mallet to strike the opposite ear of the charging handle. Two or three firm licks and it opened right up. And yes we actually do carry tools to the range. My buddy number two is a professional gunsmith and carries all kinds of neat tools to the range. I've begun to do so myself.
I'm a little late in posting to give Evergreen any help I'm afraid. We were concerned about keeping the muzzle down range so we kept the rifle on the rest and while one person pulled back hard on the charging handle the second person used a rubber mallet to strike the opposite ear of the charging handle. Two or three firm licks and it opened right up. And yes we actually do carry tools to the range. My buddy number two is a professional gunsmith and carries all kinds of neat tools to the range. I've begun to do so myself.
Evergreen
Member
It's wonderful to read everyone's ideas and suggestions. Sad to say, the gun is now at the smith and he says I gotta wait anywhere from 1-2 weeks 
.
Well, I was at another local gun shop and some of the guys there gave me some other suggestions about what they thought it could be. One person told me he thought it was a factory defect, a bur (is that how you spell it?) in the chamber or feeding area. He said some guns have points sticking out of it that would result in the ammo getting scratched as it was fed into the chamber.
One thing I noticed is that I would see my ammo always scratched on the right side. The ammo would appear to have liike knife marks on the right side of the case or bullet. One bullet had some metal partly shaved off. You could see a jagged edge hanging from the bullet tip where it looked like it was cut on something.
I am starting to wonder if this is a matter of using poor quality ammo or if this is perhaps a factory defect in my gun, as a result of some protruding jagged edge of some sort in the action area of the rifle.
I have heard that the Portuguese 7.62 x 51 is very decent mil ammo and that it has been used successfullly in DPMS .308s.
However, it could be just a coincidence and it really may be the ammo as I heard others had this problem.
What I like to know is what others think about the fact that the gun would cut up my rounds on the right side at random times, when the gun is trying to feed? Would poor ammo result in the scratching and cutting up of my ammunition like this? I like to hear some thoughts.
I am sure the gunsmith will get to the bottom of it anyhow. I pray to God I don't have to send my most precious gun back to DPMS.
.Well, I was at another local gun shop and some of the guys there gave me some other suggestions about what they thought it could be. One person told me he thought it was a factory defect, a bur (is that how you spell it?) in the chamber or feeding area. He said some guns have points sticking out of it that would result in the ammo getting scratched as it was fed into the chamber.
One thing I noticed is that I would see my ammo always scratched on the right side. The ammo would appear to have liike knife marks on the right side of the case or bullet. One bullet had some metal partly shaved off. You could see a jagged edge hanging from the bullet tip where it looked like it was cut on something.
I am starting to wonder if this is a matter of using poor quality ammo or if this is perhaps a factory defect in my gun, as a result of some protruding jagged edge of some sort in the action area of the rifle.
I have heard that the Portuguese 7.62 x 51 is very decent mil ammo and that it has been used successfullly in DPMS .308s.
However, it could be just a coincidence and it really may be the ammo as I heard others had this problem.
What I like to know is what others think about the fact that the gun would cut up my rounds on the right side at random times, when the gun is trying to feed? Would poor ammo result in the scratching and cutting up of my ammunition like this? I like to hear some thoughts.
I am sure the gunsmith will get to the bottom of it anyhow. I pray to God I don't have to send my most precious gun back to DPMS.
Have you broke in the barrel? You know shoot clean,shoot clean,shoot clean,shoot clean,shoot clean then shoot 5x clean,shoot 5x clean, shoot 5x clean,shoot 5x clean,shoot 5x clean,shoot 5x clean,shoot 5x clean,shoot 5x clean,shoot 5x clean,shoot 5x clean, the shoot 10x clean.
Evergreen
Member
The answer is no.. I don't know much about breaking in barrels. I can say there is probably less than 200-300 rounds total shot from that thing. I never thought about cleaning it after shooting it 5 times. Lot of people told me they never did it and they had no problem. I guess if I could reverse time I would have done this now. I just cannot see how not breaking in the barrel woudl result in my ammo getting stuck and cut to pieces. I have fired lots of ammo out of my other guns which were never broken in the correct way and they never had this issue.
But if breaking in the barrel properly could have stopped this, I will be sure to do it next time I buy a new gun.
But if breaking in the barrel properly could have stopped this, I will be sure to do it next time I buy a new gun.
Evergreen
Member
No, I never did. I went to the range fired it, left it at home. It was cleaned maybe after 50 rounds. Fired it some more.. Cleaned it. Then fired it again.. Cleaned it.
I mean, I have hardly used the gun, but did not do any hardcore cleaning after every few shots. Don't know what kind of problem I created.
I mean, I have hardly used the gun, but did not do any hardcore cleaning after every few shots. Don't know what kind of problem I created.
Wow, poor AR-10. Hopefully your smith will get it straightened out you should mention to him how many rounds you put through it without breaking in the barrel.
Edit: After reading posts 1 and 44 why in God's name would you pay so much for a rifle and feed it surplus ammo and not take the time to break in the barrel? Just take this as a lesson learned not to cheap out on your time or money.
Edit: After reading posts 1 and 44 why in God's name would you pay so much for a rifle and feed it surplus ammo and not take the time to break in the barrel? Just take this as a lesson learned not to cheap out on your time or money.
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Evergreen, I haven't followed any fancy cleaning regimens on any of my ARs. I load up some ammuntion (typically 35 or 40 rounds for load development), head off to the range, shoot, go home, clean then repeat the following week. I very much doubt that your cleaning of the barrel, or lack thereof had anything to do with your problem. One tip I would offer for a new AR is to single load the first 20 or so rounds particularly if the bolt and carrier has some proprietary coating on it.
Your description of the cases and bullets being scratched up could be due to a defective magazine. How many magazines do you have and does/did this happen with all of them?
I wish you'd tried to tap the bolt back with a punch before dropping the rifle off at a gunsmith. Why the heck it's going to take one to two weeks is beyond me. It's a five minute job that any good gunsmith would do in front of you for a nominal fee or even free!! He/she would have a customer for life that way.
Your description of the cases and bullets being scratched up could be due to a defective magazine. How many magazines do you have and does/did this happen with all of them?
I wish you'd tried to tap the bolt back with a punch before dropping the rifle off at a gunsmith. Why the heck it's going to take one to two weeks is beyond me. It's a five minute job that any good gunsmith would do in front of you for a nominal fee or even free!! He/she would have a customer for life that way.
The Real Mags, too bad you didn't post the information above the DPMS break-in procedure recommended to improve ACCURACY and NOT reliability.
From the DPMS website ...
http://www.dpmsinc.com/support/warning.aspx
**********************************************************
Ammunition Warning
After extensive testing, we have found that only ammunition manufactured to SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute) specifications is reliable in DPMS rifles. DPMS recommends the use of high quality, domestically produced ammunition for best results and highest accuracy. For plinking and practice, we recommend only domestic, commercially manufactured ammunition. Please note: the use of hand-loaded ammunition voids the factory warranty. The use of all ammunition listed below also voids the warranty.
We have incurred feeding problems with the following:
* Israeli ammunition
* Korean ammunition
* Chilean ammunition
* Portugese ammunition
We have reviewed several reports, from several manufacturers', regarding problems using this ammunition. The problem appears to be the bullet contour and the overall length of the cartridge, which is contacting the rifling before firing. This is creating a gas port pressure and chamber pressure higher than recommended, therefore causing feeding and extraction problems due to the increased bolt carrier velocity. In addition, there is accelerated fatigue on internal parts. There are also indications that brass may be out of spec, which could create an unsafe condition.
* PMP
* South African produced surplus
We have used this ammunition in the past for testing purposes and found the brass is extremely soft and can "flow" into microscopic pores and grooves in the chamber creating "sticky" extraction. This has been reported in many types of rifles, but is more prevalent in semi-automatic weapons.
* Lacquer Coated Ammunition or Steel-cased, lacquer coated ammunition
* Wolf
* Norinco
* Silver Bear
* Any steel-cased (coated or non-coated) ammunition
The problem with this ammunition is that the lacquer coating on the case. As the barrel heats up, the lacquer turns to a soft, varnish substance and upon cool down, becomes very solid and difficult to remove. This effectively creates an undersized chamber and creates understandable problems.
Your rifle is an investment and it only makes sense to choose quality ammunition for a quality rifle!
**********************************************************
From the DPMS website ...
http://www.dpmsinc.com/support/warning.aspx
**********************************************************
Ammunition Warning
After extensive testing, we have found that only ammunition manufactured to SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute) specifications is reliable in DPMS rifles. DPMS recommends the use of high quality, domestically produced ammunition for best results and highest accuracy. For plinking and practice, we recommend only domestic, commercially manufactured ammunition. Please note: the use of hand-loaded ammunition voids the factory warranty. The use of all ammunition listed below also voids the warranty.
We have incurred feeding problems with the following:
* Israeli ammunition
* Korean ammunition
* Chilean ammunition
* Portugese ammunition
We have reviewed several reports, from several manufacturers', regarding problems using this ammunition. The problem appears to be the bullet contour and the overall length of the cartridge, which is contacting the rifling before firing. This is creating a gas port pressure and chamber pressure higher than recommended, therefore causing feeding and extraction problems due to the increased bolt carrier velocity. In addition, there is accelerated fatigue on internal parts. There are also indications that brass may be out of spec, which could create an unsafe condition.
* PMP
* South African produced surplus
We have used this ammunition in the past for testing purposes and found the brass is extremely soft and can "flow" into microscopic pores and grooves in the chamber creating "sticky" extraction. This has been reported in many types of rifles, but is more prevalent in semi-automatic weapons.
* Lacquer Coated Ammunition or Steel-cased, lacquer coated ammunition
* Wolf
* Norinco
* Silver Bear
* Any steel-cased (coated or non-coated) ammunition
The problem with this ammunition is that the lacquer coating on the case. As the barrel heats up, the lacquer turns to a soft, varnish substance and upon cool down, becomes very solid and difficult to remove. This effectively creates an undersized chamber and creates understandable problems.
Your rifle is an investment and it only makes sense to choose quality ammunition for a quality rifle!
**********************************************************
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