Avoidance As A Strategy

When in the woods I have learned to try to practice snake and bear avoidance.

Kleanbore said:

I do not what know that a "lack of aggressive instances at rural rest stops" might mean, but a lack of data cannot support a conclusion that stopping at rural risk stops would not be risky.

Further, no realistic evaluation of how or whether a person stopping at one might represent an inviting target for an attacker would support such a conclusion.

To me, it supports the opposite very persuasively.

"Opinion"? Well, there are ways in which a meaningful scientific experiment could be designed to evaluate the issue, but that shouldn't be necessary for anyone who can think.

Actual data can have their uses, but people often have to employ other means of analysis .

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...comings-of-statistics-and-actual-data.869921/

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Your argument seems to be that a lack of data doesn’t necessarily support a lack of criminal activity. And that is certainly possible. A lack of data might as easily support A lack of criminal activity.

I practice situational awareness and go about my business. Since I don’t drink, buy drugs or use hookers, I tend not to be in the areas at night where most documented crime occurs.

Kleanbore said:

The Sun Tzu sayings are applicable in war, but their application in lawful personal defense is quite limited.

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OK, I'll rephrase it the way may Dad said it:" A little foresight goes a long way in avoiding a fight you don't want."

Kleanbore said:

What????

It cannot support a conclusion that the risk of such activity is low.

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Well, your claiming the opposite from the same lack of data.

Here's one way I practice avoidance:

I avoid going places where I cannot carry effective defensive tools.

Example: Some time ago, I was planning the route for a cross-country trip to be sure that I could legally carry a firearm in every state we were to pass through. I went far out of my way to avoid passing through Illinois, where, at the time, I could not carry.

Modern society makes it difficult to avoid contact with criminals...I avoid being ungunned when these contacts inevitably occur.

Kleanbore said:

While I am suggesting that the risk is real, the lack of data has nothing to do with my opinion.

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I agree with this.

Risk avoidance is always an excellent strategy no matter where you have to go or what you have to do.

However, I won’t change certain things that I otherwise want or should be able to do.

Rest stops, I won’t be intimidated or scared away fro, somewhere I should be able to go and have a right to go. If I see an issue, possible threat or legality that needs to be addressed at a rest stop, or Anywhere similar. I call the cops.

In some situations, if legally allowed. Texas is an open carry state. I will dual or even triple open carry, and make it more then obvious without doing anything illegal.

Recently with people getting violent about people not wearing masks in various stores, I had a gentleman start to approach me, it was obvious, I knew it was about me not wearing a mask. I was open carrying, when he got close, I could tell he finally noticed I was carrying, and made an abrupt about face only 6’ in front of me and then turned right down the isle. It was more then obvious to myself, my significant other, and the store associate who was with me. All three of us snickered and the store associate made a funny comment.

On the other hand, I am & will also not make any plans to visit various countries that are as the US Rates as a Class 4 zone country which has unsafe travel. Such as Venezuela, Iraq, Iran, etc... Same thing applies to certain cities in the USA right now that are suffering from Antifa and BLM protesting and riots. Not willing to deal with those issues in those cities such as Portland and Seattle. I don’t live there, so no need to go right now.

I will Also avoid taking certain streets and going through certain neighborhoods at night, baring some exceptions.

If Antifa or the BLM are protesting or rioting, I will avoid those areas of trouble unless absolutely necessary. Or unless I am taking part in a counter-protest, but I am still legally prepared in whatever legal way I can be. We have to stand up for what’s right. We can’t be overrun by thugs.

I am someone too that will refuse To some degree to let thugs rule where I go and what I do. So what I do as well as make myself look scarier to them then they might be to me.

I also never go anywhere alone.

You may not approve of my methods or methodology, but it’s something I can live with. Because I for the most part I will NOT allow thugs, antifa or the BLM rule my life or keep me from doing something or going somewhere I otherwise have a right to go. I have no problem calling in the police if needed. I have done so in the past and will do so in the future.

Recently with people getting violent about people not wearing masks in various stores, I had a gentleman start to approach me, it was obvious, I knew it was about me not wearing a mask. I was open carrying, when he got close, I could tell he finally noticed I was carrying, and made an abrupt about face only 6’ in front of me and then turned right down the isle. It was more then obvious to myself, my significant other, and the store associate who was with me. All three of us snickered and the store associate made a funny comment.

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I don't understand this is in context of avoidance. Independent of the mask debate, if the person did take offense and came up to you and called you names for your behavior, what good would triple carrying, double carrying or single carrying do? Touch the guns and the cops will come for you.

Now some bad people carry guns. Triple carrying will not deter someone from simply shooting you as a surprise. Recall what happened to that guy in WalMart who decided to intervene and was then killed by the second bad person.

Good point. In knife class years ago, a guy said that he was a big guy so folks wouldn't trouble him. The instructor, on the small side and with a training knife, got up close to him and said: I don't like you. Whipped out the training knife and repeatedly stabbed him in the blink of an eye.

Told the story of a case I was involved in, where a tough young guy gave crap to an old, skinny fart who was a little 'off'. Right in the guy's face. The fart whipped out a paring knife as you use to cut and apple. Stuck into the sweet spot of the stud's chest and he was DRT. Hit a major vessel.

Kleanbore said:

Where do you draw he line? Stores at closing time? ATMs at midnight? Bars?

The kinds of risks about which one should be concerned at a rest stop are usually less than obvious, if predation is intended, and are rarely something that can be addressed by "calling the cops".

And there is the timing element. If one can wait for the police to dispatch someone and come to a rest top, one probably had a better mitigation strategy in the first place.

My word!

This:

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Is contradictory with this:

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Do you really think that being "legally prepared" would prove helpful?

What do you tell them, and what to they do for you?

Do you really expect a timely response these days?

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First off, if I am taking part in counter-protest against antifa or the blm, i have accepted and prepared myself for the worst outcome. No different then a military soldier.

That doesnt mean I am carrying a firearm. That means I accept the fact I could be injured or many other outcomes. But that doesnt mean either that I dont know how to protect myself or take other protective measures either. I do legally own riot gear for example.

What i am trying to say. is yes their are times I will avoid certain high crime areas, protesting etc.... Then other times I wont. All of which depends on many factors at play and the urgency to get to my destination.

Sometimes the protesting is my destination because i am one who will take part in counter-protesting against Antifa and The BLM, and other similar group protests.

I also believe that in SOME instances open carry CAN be a deterrant. Such as rest stops. I also believe dual carry is more a detterrant then single open carry. Where legal of course.
However i have yet to come across a "bad" rest stop in Texas. We have some really fairly decent ones.

ATM's I never really use. Not aince u can get cashback almost anywhere you go to the store.

I dont go to bars, so not an issue. C-Stores at night. I only go to the major large ones, the Buckees for texans, Loves, Etc... They all have security, cameras and are all well lit. I also dont travel to states i cant carry.

Jeff White said:

You do realize that there is a certain segment of the population who will look at your “display of force” as a challenge, don’t you? While a rational person might be intimidated and stay away, there are plenty of irrational people in the world who will look at your “display of force” as a challenge to take up.

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Absolutely.... Its a fine line between those who will take advantage of your cause they dont beleive you can protect yourself, and those that will take you up on your challenge.
Either way you could be screwed. Just cause one conceal carrys doesnt mean that their shirt or coat will be in the way to get to your weapon in time either.

There is no absolute best way in every circumstance for every possibility.

However i beleive its best to look strong and well protected then to appear weak and defenseless

Heres one other note on avoidance when it comes to safety outdoors with animals.

One could avoid going hiking or back country camping to avoid running into bears moose and other critters.

I have very rarely gone hiking in west texas and not come across a rattlesnake.

I always carry.... but in 50+ years i have never had to use my firearm in SD. That being said though. I would still never go hiking or into the back country with out a firearm either.

I can go hiking and talk loudy, have a bell on, etc.... But thats still no garuntee i wont run into a dangerous critter that wont attack either.

On an another thread... there were several posts of people reporting they had to shoot a dog because they or someone elae was being attacked.

So just because we are situationaly aware and avoid, is still no guarantee that something bad wont happen.

But its YOUR right as well as mine to choose what risk YOU are willing to take and what risk i am willing to take.

You wont dind me risking my neck bunjee jumping or sky diving, yet others do. Thats their choice.

But I will never argue that advoidance isnt a good strategy to observe. There are many things i advoid that others do not. I also dont avoid things that others do avoid.

Kleanbore said:

And as been discussed, it might well have turned out very badly for you.

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As i have also said too, your absolutely right it could have turned out worse for me,

But you have to admit it could have turned out worse even if i was practiceing CC or even if I had no firearm on me at all.

We all have to admit, that carrying a firearm (CC or OC) is still no Garuntee that something still wont happen, and that our firearm may still not always stop or prevent any criminal activity against us or anyone else.

I dont believe in the suprise factor that many people believe CC has. But that isnt why i CC when i do. OC is legal, and im not going to make an extra effort to keep it concealed unless required by law. It it happens to be concealed because of the clothes i wear, great and its not. Im not worried about it. I know though that when its conceales its going to take me an extra 5 seconds pull my clothes away and to draw my weapon though and in some cases thats not satisfactory for me. So OC it is unless CC is required by law.

Trunk Monkey said:

Just to clarify the emphasis of that particular poster's story was rest areas. There are other places that are trouble spots.

As for specifically rest stops though there are things that I look for. Like HSO said if there several other people there. If there are that's one thing if not I'd seriously consider moving on.

I stopped in a rest area in Idaho I think and had some lot lizard try to pick me up. I stopped in another one, because I was falling asleep at the wheel and I woke up and some guy was trying to get in my car. I don't even remember where that happened. That may skew my perception but generally speaking I don't stop at them unless there's not another option.

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TM,

I’m 100% on board with this way of thinking and spent WAY too much time trying to get it through my kids brains when they were late teens and early twenty somethings..

Likewise, time of day is a factor in “safe zones”...life between 2300 - 0600 hours is way different than daylight, although I think the deference’s are getting less as time passes. When my kids were college age and I told them to call me if they were coming home after 2300, they would roll their eyes! LOL! Daughters!!!!

Avoidance by any means for any purpose is about risk assement.

One could stay inside live in a hermtically sealed bunker. Have everything delivered santized before entering. But that wouldnt be much of a life, would be expensive and by 99% of the world labeled as "crazy"

Yet on the otherhand we cant go the other extreme and avoid nothing and have no fewr of anything. We would have very short lives.

We each have to find a balance for ourselves and our family that we can accept and live with.

Since this is a firearm forum.... Firearms are dangerous when in the wrong hands. We dont practice avoiding firearms. We practice proper gun safety. By practicing proper gun safety we avoid many possible horrible outcomes.

So decide for yourself what ur willing to avoid and what your not, and in all cases accept the consequences of your decisions.

bearcreek said:

Simply avoiding places that generally have a higher percentage of trouble can certainly help, but it can also cause you to miss out on a lot.

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I agree with this in general. There’s a lot of people on this board that won’t visit entire states!! But personally I’ve never found a rest stop that is cleaner than 95% of gas stations. Its fair to say stay out of rest areas.

HB said:

I agree with this in general. There’s a lot of people on this board that won’t visit entire states!! But personally I’ve never found a rest stop that is cleaner than 95% of gas stations. Its fair to say stay out of rest areas.

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Especially now when you have places like "Buckees" popping around the NationZ
Buckees is mostly in Texas. But you have Loves that is in several states like Texas Oklahaoma and New Mexico. I cant think of the names of them but ofther similar places are popping up all over the place. Huge establishments selling gas, mainline food, gifts, souvenirs, and more. Rest stops are becoming pointless except for the truckers.