M.D. Smith's Reloading Pages- Quandary.

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sr1971

sr1971

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This was an interesting find. I had been looking for more data for 357 as far as range of charge weights that had been previously established for Universal, Unique, 2400, & Trail Boss.

I am completely aware of the current data being the most recommend by all for newcomers and the suits in the legal departments at any given manufacturer have guidelines. Looking back into some older manufacturer load data I found online, how safe and reliable is this currently? The "old days" it seems the loads were exceptionally hotter.

Any how, I thought the information in this following link had some weight. All insight from experienced and true data loggers appreciated. Link in below and I've added a screenshot.

http://www.reloadammo.com/reload.htm Screenshot_20200925-185919.png
 
Some people think the new data is "lawyered down"
I tend to think newer data may be more accurate due to better testing methods. (maybe there is a pressure spike that didn't show up with the older tests for example)
Most new data Lyman, Hodgdon for example shows pressure your data above shows charges but no pressure data.

Take 2 powder companies, say Hodgdon and Alliant,
One would think that they know velocity sells powder at least to some people, so I would tend to think they want to publish the best vel that they can that is safe for say 2400 vs say H110.

Not saying there is anything wrong with the above data.

Lyman 50
Universal receiver - so no cylinder gap 4" barrel
.357 Mag 155 LSWC
H110 start 15gr 1310fps 35800 CUP, Max 15.7 1363fps 40300 CUP
2400 start 10.6gr 999fps 24900 CUPP Max 14.0gr 1299fps 41900 CUPI
Bullseye start 4.8gr 828fps 18000 CUP Max 7.0 1122fps 39400 CUP
Acc #9 start 13.0gr 998fps 29500 CUP Max 14.5gr 1221fps 39600 CUP

Current Western Data,
upload_2020-9-25_20-34-58.png

Within reason there is no such thing as a free lunch, more velocity=higher pressure,
how much is to much, well if you are looking at broken gun parts and missing fingers you know that was to much. (assuming you can still see to look):eek:

I would rather give up 50 or 100 fps and still have everthing it one piece and not be worried about skating on thin ice.
hmmm right at the edge when it was 50 outside wonder where it is when it's 110 in summer......
 
Can't find it now but somewhere there was a list of 4 types of reloaders, I think this is close
1. Follows data exactly, will not substitute anything
2. Uses known data, makes substitutions based on knowledge/experience
3. Works up loads for unknown combos carefully based on knowledge/experience
4. Thinks all data is cut down by lawyers in suits. (you can spot type 4 reloader due to missing fingers, eye patches etc....)
4A. Thinks all data posted online must be good because it is posted online, can be spotted for the same reasons as type 4.

Edit: Not saying all online data is bad, it just needs to be cross checked
 
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I referred to the MD Smith link today for a different caliber than .357. I’ve been going there for a number of years for various data. Like anything on the net related to reloading you have to use your better judgement and experience. That means review published data from a variety of reputable sources before you start cobbling together ammo.
 
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In regards to .38 Special, .357 Magnum, 9mm and .45 Colt referencing Universal and Unique powders the MD Smith’s pages are accurate in reflecting load data from the powder manufacturers. I would imagine that MD Smith did the same with other powder and load data.
 
Dudedog said:
Can't find it now but somewhere there was a list of 4 types of reloaders, I think this is close
1. Follows data exactly, will not substitute anything
2. Uses known data, makes substitutions based on knowledge/experience
3. Works up loads for unknown combos carefully based on knowledge/experience
4. Thinks all data is cut down by lawyers in suits. (you can spot type 4 reloader due to missing fingers, eye patches etc....)
4A. Thinks all data posted online must be good because it is posted online, can be spoted for the same reasons as type 4.
Click to expand...
I am category #1 Dudedog, seeing as where I lack the time in the seat and am far from a subject matter expert. It makes my mechanical mind ask questions and that is why I posted above. I didn't intend for my excerpt above to sound as though it was leaning towards the legal side of the data nor that I might steer away from hard data.

I will not steer away from the given hard data I have at the bench on the laptop or the 3 manuals in my possession. I just see gaps in some of it regarding using 357 cases for Special and +P data. I am uncertain about SPP vs SPM's as well, but understand that certain powders require SPM to ignite properly.

My initial post was unclear and I am still looking for clarification on the use of the 357 case with data that isn't "full house" in the 38 Special to +P range. That being said here's what I have near the bench that I'd like to use:
powder- Trail Boss, Universal, Unique, and 2400
primers- WSP & CCI 500/550
cases- Sig Sauer 357 brass (resized & TTL)
projectiles- Bayou 158 SWC & 138 BNWC, Xtreme 125 FNWC plated, Berry's 158 target HP (long ogive)
manuals- most recent Speer, Lyman, Lee hardcovers
firearms for testing results- S&W 4" 66-2 & new 1-7/8" 360 J-frame

I agree with all the above about using the most current data. Any help with the above would be greatly appreciated. My apologies in advance if it stirred the pot.
 
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My initial post was unclear and I am still looking for clarification on the use of the 357 case with data that isn't "full house" in the 38 Special to +P range
Click to expand...

Sorry if I sounded "preachy" in my posts above:oops:, I just want everyone to be safe.

I am type 3 (but I am chicken and still have all my fingers)
.38 Special loads can be used in .357 cases, just be aware that the larger case will result in a little less pressure and velocity.
I think the main concern would be that a mild start charge in a .38 case might possibly (not likely but possible) be strong enough to get the bullet out of the barrel when loaded in a .357 case in a pistol.
(longer rifle barrels will have a much greater chance of having an issue)

In general I have found when using .38 data in a .357 case it takes 1/10 or 2/10 of a grain more powder to get the same vel as in a .38 case.

SPM can be used in place of SPPs IMO but being a tad hotter will require a little less powder, hard to say exactly but .1 or .2 gr less (note 1/10 or 2/10s).
Lots of others here who have been loading longer than I have so hopefully they will chime in on my above thoughts/results.


Things to watch out for when loading light loads in a .357 case is there is lots of room in the case, so a double or triple charge of some powders will fit.
Needless to say the results of a double or triple charge would no be good.

Another thing to be aware of is some powders are more sensitive to powder forward/powder back than others. (is the powder at the back of the case, the front, or the middle) With some powders it makes a big difference.
Since you can have just a little powder in a big case it is something to be aware of.
Walkalong has done some tests and posted the results for us here so it might be worth searching for those threads.

Have fun, stay safe:)
 
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I agree with Dudedog's first two posts. Many years ago I looked at Mr. Smith's load data and if I used any, it was checked against the data found in my manuals, so I quit "wasting my time" and just kept with published data (I don't remember where he got his data). I fit in the #2 definition of a reloader/handloader and very rarely begin with anything other than published data for starting a load work up for a new to me caliber (I start at min loads and record every load on my computer and in my log. Subsequent reloadings use the recorded data as reference)...
 
I am guessing that Smith's loads come from his own experience, but in his own guns. So, when he says "max", I am also guessing that he saw pressure signs with 1/10 grain more.

However, that is in his guns, using his components, to the degree that he exercised care, with his test methods, and subject to his errors. As a result, either use widely published data from a component manufacturer, or tread lightly, exercising your own due diligence.
 
Dudedog said:
Sorry if I sounded "preachy" in my posts above:oops:, I just want everyone to be safe.

I am type 3 (but I am chicken and still have all my fingers)
.38 Special loads can be used in .357 cases, just be aware that the larger case will result in a little less pressure and velocity.
I think the main concern would be that a mild start charge in a .38 case might possibly (not likely but possible) be strong enough to get the bullet out of the barrel when loaded in a .357 case in a pistol.
(longer rifle barrels will have a much greater chance of having an issue)

In general I have found when using .38 data in a .357 case it takes 1/10 or 2/10 of a grain more to get the same vel as in a .38 case.

SPM can be used in place of SPPs IMO but being a tad hotter will require a little less powder, hard to say exactly but .1 or .2 gr less (note 1/10 or 2/10s).
Lots of others here who have been loading longer than I have so hopefully they will chime in on my above thoughts.


Things to watch out for when loading light loads in a .357 case is there is lots of room in the case, so a double or triple charge of some powders will fit.
Needless to say the results of a double or triple charge would no be good.

Another thing to be aware of is some powders are more sensitive to powder forward/powder back than others. (is the powder at the back of the case, the front, or the middle) With some powders it makes a big difference.
Since you can have just a little powder in a big case it is something to be aware of.
Walkalong has done some tests and posted the results for us here so it might be worth searching for those threads.

Have fun, stay safe:)
Click to expand...
None taken. It is very difficult to relay what was on my mind exactly at that hour of the evening when I started wondering. I do understand the theory of 10% from Maximum and work up and the purpose of powder forward/back. All of the information here is excellent and I follow the common theme of using published data first, as I have kept all my digits intact, and I'll likely keep it that way. (Unless I completely dismiss the fact that the Mfr's label on the lawnmower specifically states not to pick it up while running...Cynical I know, but it's one way of weeding out the weak minded per say. HA!)

I have seen Walkalong's findings and hold them to be true, since his data is complete and current. If only everything we read was deemed completely true the world might be more easily navigated. (Insert Lawnmower effect) Thank you all again for your wise ears and decisive explanations.

Appreciated,

sr1971
 
I tend to use M D Smith's data as another data point to make a personal guesstimate as to what to use for a load work up. All data is only what worked in the particular firearm/universal reciever when tested. To be used with a grain of salt and a sprinkle of fairy dust.

The data in the posts above is accurate. About one tenth more propellant when using the longer 357 case is what I find to equal 38 loads also. As usual work up your loads.
 
Sistema1927 said:
I am guessing that Smith's loads come from his own experience, but in his own guns. So, when he says "max", I am also guessing that he saw pressure signs with 1/10 grain more.

However, that is in his guns, using his components, to the degree that he exercised care, with his test methods, and subject to his errors. As a result, either use widely published data from a component manufacturer, or tread lightly, exercising your own due diligence.
Click to expand...
Hmm. That would be pretty involved with even a semi-professional tester. There are 21 rifles listed and about 30 handgun cartridges. And many, many different loads for each. I know people that have a lot of guns and do a lot of reloading but the numbers in Mr. Smith's listings would be two lifetimes of personal testing...
 
Patrick Sweeney, who is some kind of Gunzine Guru and pistol competitor, wrote a book regarding handguns, in which he remarked that to go from .38 Spl. to 357 Magnum loads, using Magnum brass, simply increase a published .38 Spl. load by 10%, and be happy!:what: Of course, he didn't specify if that was a max. or +P .38 load, some of which approach starting loads for the 357.
Me, I have found that 38 Spl +P cast loads in 357 brass are pleasant to shoot and accurate in any 357 I have owned, and will be sufficient to whatever need I have. Keeping in mind Mr. Smith's guideline of 900 FPS for cast bullets to avoid leading. IMO ~1,000 fps for jacketed rounds will be sufficient to initiate expansion. :)
 
If you're looking for a large amount of data for any cartridge this is your best bet- Load Data

One can search data for a caliber in any given bullet weight, cast or jacketed, as well as the powder type and/or brand, then once found the information can be printed and/or DL'ed and saved.

For example-

upload_2020-9-28_6-18-49.png

I haven't bought a new reloading manual in years.

35W
 
Dudedog said:
Can't find it now but somewhere there was a list of 4 types of reloaders, I think this is close
1. Follows data exactly, will not substitute anything
2. . .
Click to expand...

Quothe me;
Philosophically, there are three sorts of Reloaders:
1) Recipe followers, who are horrified by deviations from the published data.
2) Experimenters, carefully treading beyond the data, with caution and acceptance of the (small) risks.
3) Fools, boldly going where wise men fear to tread, who will eventually make an ash of themselves.

Be #2. Go carefully and pay attention.​
 
Dudedog said:
Some people think the new data is "lawyered down". I tend to think newer data may be more accurate due to better testing methods.
Click to expand...
There's definitely a case to be made here. Every time you install a new strain gauge, its dynamic measurement capability gets a bit better, and you capture the instantaneous peak slightly more precisely. . . but the SAAMI defines of MaxP doesn't move.

Most precisely, no measurement definition is compete without a definition of measurement method. So start low, work up, and read old (and new) data with a pinch of salt.
 
I have to go along with the "better measuring instrument" line of thinking. One of the reloading manuals (Speer, I think) mentioned some of their loads in older books was 'over the SAAMI limits' with current test instruments. Which is not to say those loads will turn a firearm into a trigger actuated hand grenade. Normally be a bit above posted limits tend to wear brass and arms out quicker. I have used some of those old, overpressure loadings in my arms (.38 Special revolver, specifically) in the old days.
I've never heard of anyone having a 'catastrophic failure' (fractured metal or shards) with the older loads. But increased wear and excessive recoil are to be avoided in my thinking.
The bottom line is use the older data, but work up slowly. Don't just blindly pour in powder without trying some lighter loads first. All arms are individual. Two of the same anything may have different limits.
 
Archie said:
I have to go along with the "better measuring instrument" line of thinking. One of the reloading manuals (Speer, I think) mentioned some of their loads in older books was 'over the SAAMI limits' with current test instruments. Which is not to say those loads will turn a firearm into a trigger actuated hand grenade. Normally be a bit above posted limits tend to wear brass and arms out quicker. I have used some of those old, overpressure loadings in my arms (.38 Special revolver, specifically) in the old days.
I've never heard of anyone having a 'catastrophic failure' (fractured metal or shards) with the older loads. But increased wear and excessive recoil are to be avoided in my thinking.
The bottom line is use the older data, but work up slowly. Don't just blindly pour in powder without trying some lighter loads first. All arms are individual. Two of the same anything may have different limits.
Click to expand...

Good post, common sense at it's finest!

35W
 
Quothe me;
Philosophically, there are three sorts of Reloaders:
1) Recipe followers, who are horrified by deviations from the published data.
2) Experimenters, carefully treading beyond the data, with caution and acceptance of the (small) risks.
3) Fools, boldly going where wise men fear to tread, who will eventually make an ash of themselves.
Click to expand...


From this list I would be type 2.
 
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