Mixed Headstamps & NATO in Winchester White Box 9mm

Interesting indeed.

That very well could be "re-manufactured" by some one with an FFL to do so. At the height of the shortage this fall we were selling re-manufactured at the public range I work. But then we were not selling it as "New".

OP, your plan to come at it from the two directions sounds good to me. The manufacturer isn't going to be too happy about their product being misrepresented by the end retailer, so if you get a run-around from the shop, the manufacturer may go down their distribution chain and get something done from their end.

Having mixed Winchester brass in a box of WWB is not surprising. I have seen NATO cross and even +P marked examples in nominal 115 gr FMJ.

However, the Starline is a no-go.

The simple solution take it back to the seller and ask for a refund, because you were were under the impression this was factory new Winchester ammunition.

wst38tx said:

I got a box of Win White box with a new 9mm pistol I just bought and found some real oddities. I'm starting to load 9mm, so I wanted to take some COAL measurements on the Win WB ammo. I was shocked to see Starline brass mixed in, and even some WMA with NATO stamp and crimped primers. What gives? This is a good store, no reason to think it's anything other than the real stuff.

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that fact that it has more than a single head stamp pretty much shows it is not real WWB ammo. It might be the store got some reloads in WWB boxes that got mixed in with the real stuff. Just take it back and show them.

ilbob said:

It might be the store got some reloads in WWB boxes that got mixed in with the real stuff. Just take it back and show them.

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Yes--give the store a chance to make things right. No one knows yet how this mistake happened, so there may be an entirely reasonable explanation.

Tim

Not to mention they will claim YOU put reloads in that nice new box of factory ammo you bought and are trying to pass it off on THEM to make them pay up. You did not open the ammo box at the store, I assume? I probably wouldn't have either if I knew the store. However, let us know what they happens, please.

Simple enough to just go back in and ask to buy another and open it right there in front of them before you pay and see.

Are you sure there wasnt a little sign somewhere saying it was remanufactured ammo?

Although, if it was someone's actual business, you'd think they would want to label it as such.

Just my $0.02, but I'd be disassembling that 9mm and inspecting it, its case and the associated paperwork (manual, warranty card, etc.) very closely as well just to make sure everything is in order.

I would go slowly with the store. There is another possibility.

Some Yahhoo took his reloads back to get store credit or cash, and the store clerk never looked inside the box, or looked quickly and saw rounds. The box, looking new, was just placed back in stock.

Or a store clerk saw a way to score some factory rounds with a newbie buyer.

gifbohane said:

I would go slowly with the store. There is another possibility.

Some Yahhoo took his reloads back to get store credit or cash, and the store clerk never looked inside the box, or looked quickly and saw rounds. The box, looking new, was just placed back in stock.

Or a store clerk saw a way to score some factory rounds with a newbie buyer.

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Everywhere I've ever been it's a non-returnable item.

gifbohane said:

Some Yahhoo took his reloads back to get store credit or cash, and the store clerk never looked inside the box, or looked quickly and saw rounds. The box, looking new, was just placed back in stock..

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Sorry, but I think that's really remote as I've never bought any ammo in any gun store anywhere where there wasn't a sign that said they didn't take back ammo for refunds. Something like this is not likely to be an oversight.

kmw1954 said:

Interesting indeed.

That very well could be "re-manufactured" by some one with an FFL to do so. At the height of the shortage this fall we were selling re-manufactured at the public range I work. But then we were not selling it as "New".

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Over the years, I have bought plenty of ammo like that; all worked just fine. I would call the store and ask them if they are reman ammo

Mars5l said:

Well if it was a free box its kinda hard to get upset. If it wasn't then may be ask whats up. I know my local store always has resold traded in ammo

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Actually, it's VERY easy to argue if they didn't tell you up front.

You don't know who loaded that ammunition, nor their level of skill, or even whether they'd drunk a bottle of Wild Turkey before they did.

Different manufacturers, ESPECIALLY those manufacturing for the military, have greatly differing standards for what they load, in particular case capacity.

A friend once decided (contrary to advice from myself and others) to load a bunch of .308 cases to maximum "safe" capacity without any reference to water capacity of the cases. He made zero effort to segregate military and commercial cases. Shockingly, the GI cases started showing blown primers and other signs of excessive pressure when using the loads he'd developed using commercial cases with significantly greater case capacity.

It's one thing to tell somebody you're selling them reloads. It's quite another to sell them reloads of unknown quantity without any notice or warning.

Don't send reloads to Winchester or other manufacturers to verify that the are in fact, reloads. In 1960s, i sent a box of 357 to Remington that were sold as new factory ammo. They said yes, reloads. They kept the ammo.

dogtown tom said:

I wouldn't bother Winchester, this wasn't their fault.
It's 100% the shop.



As are the majority of empty boxes in the trash can at virtually every gun range in America. When I reloaded that where I would get brand new boxes, styrofoam or plastic trays and the little CCI plastic boxes that I would reuse to make bulk pack .22 more orderly.

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I've got banker's boxes of commercial cartridge boxes that look like they just came off of the shelf, all loaded with a variety of the 5,000+ empty .38 Special cases that I currently possess.

Most WWB boxes I've bought in the past were sealed shut. Was this box sealed when you bought it?
I would have been on the phone to the store as soon as I found this. Let them know and see what they say.
I don't reload and I don't trust other people's reloads. A number of years ago there was a big shortage of .380 ammo. A local gun shop made a deal with a gunsmith in a neighboring town to reload 380 so they'd have some ammo to sell with new gun purchases. The gunsmith loaded the 380 too hot, his reloads blew up 2 KelTec pistols. No one was hurt but the store wound up buying new pistols for those 2 guys and had to buy back all that ammo.
If the shop won't take it back or make it right with you, you can always offer it up for sale, just warn people about what they're getting.

Oh hell **** no.
I've seen a ruger sp101 blown by somebody's botched "remanufactured" "cowboy special" .357 gunshow specials.

I'd raise hell until they made it right.

I would go back to the store and ask what exactly they thought they sold you. If they say “factory reloads” I would notify Winchester with some photos. If the store says “New ammo” I would tell them to make good. If they refuse there’s a little thing called Yelp and other websites/forums that can be used to let others know that the store may have some unscrupulous employees or owners.

I would never fire someone else’s reloads. I don’t really trust factory reloads either.

I worked at a LGS. This is what I suspect.....

Somebody traded in a 9mm pistol

With it they brought a box of ammo.

The ammo was in a factory box that appeared new.

They happened to be reloads. The guy that brought them back didn’t tell anybody or they somehow got mixed into their new ammo stock. Maybe some other clerk saw them laying on the counter and assumed someone just left them there.

They got sold as new.

Many here seem to believe that there are all kinds of nefarious shenanigans going on at the LGS. With the long lines and shortage of ammo and firearms, stuff’s gonna happen.

dogtown tom said exactly what I was going to say. I've often pulled empty ammo boxes and other stuff out of the range trash barrel for my own re-use. I can imagine something like that and the storekeeper picking it up with other stuff in a deal and not realizing these were actually reloads.

Writing Winchester about it..... <rolleyes>

I don't think I'd fire it, just bring it back for exchange and see if I could cadge an additional couple of boxes of .22s or something out of him for my trouble.

All in all, the whole thing strikes me as being... well, you know the old expression about mountains and molehills.

Terry, 230RN

Can't remember what area it was, but there is a few shops that have taken to buying "unopened, factory" ammo from the public just to have something to resell in the shop. Easy for an unscrupulous reloader with some empty boxes and a hot glue gun to pass off their reloads as factory. I've done that with some 45acp, well sealed them up in a factory box, not sell them. But I at least used all Winchester brass, Winchester primers, and Winchester projectiles. That guy wasn't even trying.....
Ah, here it is...Kentucky
https://www.wdrb.com/news/business/...cle_338b051c-2621-11eb-a7b9-dfeccd1905ac.html

Why do people not look at their purchase before they leave the store? I mean is it too difficult to do, a friend was at knob creek in the early 2000s for an April machinegun shoot and a seller was blowing out surplus 308 belted ammo and this friend opened the first 10 ish cans he bought and said all is good..... well it was so good he bought 40 cans and 13 cans were filled with sand and metal.

wst38tx said:

I got a box of Win White box with a new 9mm pistol I just bought and found some real oddities. I'm starting to load 9mm, so I wanted to take some COAL measurements on the Win WB ammo. I was shocked to see Starline brass mixed in, and even some WMA with NATO stamp and crimped primers. What gives? This is a good store, no reason to think it's anything other than the real stuff.

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Holy moly! Yeah, as said, that's NOT Winchester factory loaded ammo. I'd expect to see either WIN or NATO headstamped brass, but it will be consistent. The Starline, USA and Browning (Buckmark) brass most definitely didn't go through Winchester's loading machines.

redneck2 said:

I worked at a LGS. This is what I suspect.....

Somebody traded in a 9mm pistol

With it they brought a box of ammo.

The ammo was in a factory box that appeared new.

They happened to be reloads. The guy that brought them back didn’t tell anybody or they somehow got mixed into their new ammo stock. Maybe some other clerk saw them laying on the counter and assumed someone just left them there.

They got sold as new.

Many here seem to believe that there are all kinds of nefarious shenanigans going on at the LGS. With the long lines and shortage of ammo and firearms, stuff’s gonna happen.

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I'll give redneck2 a +1 on his possible line of events. I currently work at a local gun shop, and the stuff that comes in with trades just blows my mind some times. One of the things I get to do is go through the boxes of ammo that get traded in. We have a big tote bin where the odds and ends get dumped to await disposal. I've seen things like a Remington shotshell box holding a mix of Federal and Winchester hulls, a box of reloaded .257 Roberts hiding in an old Western 7x57mm package (complete with handwritten reload data and a date of 1973), a box of what I thought was old Federal .38 Special ammo with many mixed headstamps, including some .357 Magnum cases (but hey! they were all nickel-plated cases); the list goes on.