165 gr. 40 caliber at 1125 ft./sec. This is why I think 9mm is second best

Most of the 40 hate is jealousy. It's a damn fine round, if your arms are heavy enough to handle it.

Ive never heard anyone say that 9mm is ballistically superior to .40. Same gos for a 20mm Oerlikon cannon. If you can effectively use it, then more power to ya.

For the other %50+ of the shooting population., be they persons of small stature, low hand strength, sub-compact pistol carriers, or the co-ed military and law enforcement seeking less wear, longer equipment life, and lower training budgets, the 9mm is good enough.

Im not a .40 hater. If I could go back to 1900 and reintroduce the 10mm, 10mm Kurtz/Short (.40), and 9mm Kurtz(.380), I think we could have skipped a lot of redundant cartridges along the way, 9mm Parabellum included. On paper, the .40 makes alot of sense.

But in the real world, 9mm is the best single all-purpose cartridge we have. Just the way it is.

I'm more than 25 years out of police work. My last five years our entire outfit was equipped with Sig P229's in 40 cal. Our issued rounds were Gold dot 180 hollow points. It was gospel in my circles to use the heaviest round if at all possible. No 9mm need apply.... Although I only fired one shot in my 22 years of service when it counted (and that was with a shotgun...) - that sidearm combination was all I could have asked for (and they had night sights...).

Me, I always thought that a handgun was what you used when you couldn't get to your shotgun...

I don't hate it I just never bought into it. No need to when I have been with the .45 for years. One does not need velocity to take care of business. The .45 has been taking care of business for over a hundred years...

To add, 9x19 has more combinations of bullets to load data available. The same can be said for the 45 Auto.

Load data for cast bullets in the 40 S&W are sparse. Not sure that is because of the dreaded leading of a glock barrel hype or fact.

For the duty size frame, I don't mind pushing the loads a bit with Longshot. But not for in my Shield. Not because of recoil, but for concerns of over abusing it.

Oh no, not another “what’s the best SD caliber”! Can’t wait to see how this one turns out...

I don’t hate any of the rounds and it’s job dependent as to what one I use. I will say that I don’t use the .40 very much outside of the USPSA Limited division, that’s it’s most useful place for me.

Prior to 1994 our city PD issued S&W 65 revolvers with 125 gr +P+ 38 special ammo. The city commission didn't want 357 mag ammo so they just ordered 38 ammo basically loaded to 357 mag performance.

The Sheriff's dept. and county PD allowed their officers to carry anything they could qualify with and you literally saw everything from Smith 29's in 44 mag to BHP pistols in 9mm. But most officers carried either Smith 66's or 686 loaded with 357 mag.

In 1994 the city adopted Smith 5906's in 9mm. The county and SO chose Glock 22's in 40 S&W. Since then there have been 13 LE involved shootings. Seven with 9mm, six with 40 S&W. There have been no survivors. All 13 bad guys were dead when they hit the ground and no officer fired more than 2 shots.

Both rounds seem equally effective, but training ammo for 9mm is 1/2 the cost of 40 S&W, recoil is less, 9mm holds more rounds, and officers scores went up during qualification with 9mm. Two years ago the Sheriff polled other departments around the country who had made the switch from 40 to 9mm and every department reported no difference in effectiveness after the change. Our SO made the switch to G17's in 9mm in 2017. The city retired their aging 5906's about 5 years ago for Glock 17's. Our county PD is still carrying G22's, but I expect them to change to some version of 9mm soon.

I don't have anything against 40 S&W. But for SD from human threats the added bullet weight and energy numbers just don't seem to make any real difference. I completely understand the trend for LE to move from 40 to 9mm. And for large animal defense the 10mm's ability to shoot 200 gr bullets at up to 1300 fps gives it a decided edge over 40 which can shoot the same bullet weights to about 1100 fps..

I think it’s interesting that several factory loadings of 10mm are actually the same velocity/energy as .40 and some are weaker.

jamesinalaska said:

I use longshot powder with an aftermarket barrel and am getting 1125 ft/sec., sometimes a touch more.Yes, there is a tad more muzzle toss, and I can only maintain the accuracy in the aftermarket barrel, but the loading isn't wild or uncontrollable.

10mm is a good cartridge, but the original loadings called for a 180 grain bullet at 1200 ft/sec and a 170 grainer at 1300 ft/sec. This 165 gr. loading doesn't quite reach those, but it does come close - dang close. I'm sure I could push the Longshot envelope a bit more, but I don't see the need to do that. The loadng and the gun (G22) work fine together were they are.

Everytime I hear somebody poo-poo the 40 s&w with those worn out mantras, "40 short and weak" or "9mm is just as good". Well,...what can I say (?)...I know better.

40 haters, go ahead. Unload.

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40 cal is fine. I have no qualms with it. I just don't understand the need for people to come on line proclaim that their caliber/bullet/gun is superior. The product doesn't care, so this is about the shooter? A therapy post?

Every caliber is superior to another caliber in some form, just pick your attribute(s). Every caliber is inferior to another caliber. Just pick you attribute(s).

Zerodefect said:

Most of the 40 hate is jealousy..

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That is what I think 40 cal folks would like to believe, but that isn't going to be the case. Of course, this is not limited to hard core 40 cal people. It happens across calibers. People get it in their head that what they have is superior an everything else is inferior. Not stated, but often implied is that only idiots don't shoot the best and since "I" shoot X caliber and "I" am not an idiot, X caliber is the best. They somehow get offended or get their egos hurt when somebody says something negative about their pet product (caliber in this case) and then have the need to set the record straight for the rest of the world.

Maybe the first place for people to start is to realize that they are not their gun/bullet/caliber/make or model of firearm. People can have dissenting opinions about these things and the user should not let it reflect on him/her. All that matters is that what you use works well for you in the manner that you want it to work. To hell with everyone else's opinion, right?

Zerodefect said:

Most of the 40 hate is jealousy.

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There was a hate thread about the .41 Magnum, recently, too. It's not hate, or jealousy, just personal preference and/or experience... and, heaven forbid, just what becomes the apple of your eye.

jmr40 said:

I don't have anything against 40 S&W. But for SD from human threats the added bullet weight and energy numbers just don't seem to make any real difference.

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That, +1. My favorite cartridge/handgun combo is the one I can shoot the best. In my particular case, it's a 9mm, not a .40 or even a .45. The biggest factor, if we are indeed talking about SD weapon and cartridge choices, is delivering ANY bullet to the target.

Zerodefect said:

Most of the 40 hate is jealousy.

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LOL Jealousy of what? That's a pretty ignorant statement.

"I don't like X."
"You're just jealous."

Come now.

40S&W is great caliber to explore.

I like to compare calibers and various loads by shooting a dueling tree. The king of making the paddles on the tree move in the most violent manner so far is the 44 mag. In comparing 9mm and 40s&w, the 40s&w rocks the paddles the hardest. Don't know what any of that has to do with self defense, but I do know that knocking dueling tree paddles with gusto is more fun.

1KPerDay said:

I think it’s interesting that several factory loadings of 10mm are actually the same velocity/energy as .40 and some are weaker.

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That was kinda the history of the 10mm, wasn't it? When adopted for the FBI (after the infamous Miami shootout), most agents couldn't handle a full-house round (or the pistol size/weight), so the loading was reduced. And, then the .40 was developed to that lower power.

It is interesting. Must be plinkers.

jamesinalaska said:

10mm is a good cartridge, but the original loadings called for a 180 grain bullet at 1200 ft/sec

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It was a 200 grainer at 1200 FPS. A fierce round, alright.

1KPerDay said:

I think it’s interesting that several factory loadings of 10mm are actually the same velocity/energy as .40 and some are weaker.

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Yet labeling doesn’t make a cartridge. But to the nondiscerning buyer, no problem. Not everyone wants to shoot barn-burners. Its’ versatility truly shines for the handloaders. But more importantly, 10 AUTO has been enjoying a nice resurgence with more mnfrs (ammo and firearms) getting into the game. A win for all!

NMexJim said:

That was kinda the history of the 10mm, wasn't it? When adopted for the FBI (after the infamous Miami shootout), most agents couldn't handle a full-house round (or the pistol size/weight), so the loading was reduced. And, then the .40 was developed to that lower power.

It is interesting. Must be plinkers.

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Actually no the FBI knew going in that full power 10mm was too much for the average agent and the original tests were run with Agent Patrick's 180@950 reloads.
S&W realized those ballistics could be had in a 9mm length cartridge.
The FBI actually tanked the 1076s from a combination of the large frame being to big for agents and problems with the decocker (there was a recall).
So many people, in the gun world especially, try to make absolute statements and most absolutes are wrong sometimes.

I like the. 40S&W. It's decently powerful and widely available. None of my pistols chambered for it are fussy about ammo type, and most JHPs from the big manufacturers seem to perform well.

It's a very practical cartridge, IMO. And my second favorite auto pistol cartridge.

165 gr .40 S&W @ 1100 fps is one of my favorite (factory) loads I used to EDC it and now it is only HD. That is due to the large selection of pistols in 9mm (p365) and not caliber. I also like .357 Sig, 10 mm .357 Mag and .44 Mag .... I'm not as particular about the cartridge as I am the launcher. Nothing against .45 acp either, I started out with that but it's generally just too physically large of a round compared to the others.

I like 9mm. If it's second best I'm OK with that.

I like my 45 as well. Considering a10mm in 2021 but more for range toy until I fully grasp the caliber.

Even if 40 is the best. I don't need an in between caliber to the two I mentioned.

NIGHTLORD40K said:

Ive never heard anyone say that 9mm is ballistically superior to .40.

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"9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI"
This is a quote from the FBI's white paper justifying going back to the 9mm, many here believe it to be gospel.

NIGHTLORD40K said:

But in the real world, 9mm is the best single all-purpose cartridge we have. Just the way it is

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Handguns CCW or duty are a compromise.
Best compromise is an oxymoron.

All I know is, it was a 40 S&W that seriously wounded my 1st chronograph. Through and through.

mavracer said:

"9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI"
This is a quote from the FBI's white paper justifying going back to the 9mm, many here believe it to be gospel.

Handguns CCW or duty are a compromise.
Best compromise is an oxymoron.

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Are those select 9mm projectiles not being offered in 40 or 45?

This is similar to the oft mentioned “modern bullets” argument. Arguably a myth. If modern bullets are so great in X cartridge, wouldn’t they be that much better in ballistically superior ones?

I understand the logistics of choosing 9mm but modern bullets do not magically turn marginal rounds into fight stoppers. They might though, narrow the gap between finite terminal wounding a target can take and wildly variable terminal ballistic wounding potential of projectiles.

Worth repeating.

Maybe the first place for people to start is to realize that they are not their gun/bullet/caliber/make or model of firearm. People can have dissenting opinions about these things and the user should not let it reflect on him/her. All that matters is that what you use works well for you in the manner that you want it to work. To hell with everyone else's opinion, right?

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earlthegoat2 said:

This is similar to the oft mentioned “modern bullets” argument. Arguably a myth. If modern bullets are so great in X cartridge, wouldn’t they be that much better in ballistically superior ones?

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Right but there are folks here that will argue that 9mm has magic bullets.