Is baiting really hunting?
- Thread starter Septicdeath
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.308 Norma
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It’s a vicious circle. Those darned Eurasian collard doves are an invasive species here, and they do as much or more damage to our currants and raspberries as do the starlings. So I shoot every one of them I see. Yet I just keep on planting, fertilizing and watering our currants and raspberries. To make matters worse, my wife has a couple of bird feeders out in the back yard, and she insists on keeping them full of wild bird seed - which the darned collard doves and starlings love too.
Seriously though, except for black bears, baiting big game is illegal here in Idaho. And even for black bears, there are specific rules about what type of bait can and can’t be used - no salt for one thing.
However, even though baiting deer and/or elk is illegal here, ethically speaking, I can’t see a lot of difference between baiting and what I’ve probably done a thousand times - which is sit in the brush alongside a grain field at dusk and wait for a nice, fat mule deer to wander out.
BTW, grain fed mule deer meat is wonderful - a lot better than stinky old black bear meat.
Seriously though, except for black bears, baiting big game is illegal here in Idaho. And even for black bears, there are specific rules about what type of bait can and can’t be used - no salt for one thing.
However, even though baiting deer and/or elk is illegal here, ethically speaking, I can’t see a lot of difference between baiting and what I’ve probably done a thousand times - which is sit in the brush alongside a grain field at dusk and wait for a nice, fat mule deer to wander out.
BTW, grain fed mule deer meat is wonderful - a lot better than stinky old black bear meat.
Jeff62
Member
I put out corn/rice hulls.
I let this guy walk by. I had two doe in the freezer at the time, better steaks.
I was looking for a bigger buck.
Also, pigs come to the bait and I slay them. Mi gusto tamales.
The issue of baiting……..yes it puts more game in front of you.
The sportsmanship is still up to the hunter, I think.
NB: I did not see the bigger buck. I believe he is still out there….
I let this guy walk by. I had two doe in the freezer at the time, better steaks.
I was looking for a bigger buck.
Also, pigs come to the bait and I slay them. Mi gusto tamales.
The issue of baiting……..yes it puts more game in front of you.
The sportsmanship is still up to the hunter, I think.
NB: I did not see the bigger buck. I believe he is still out there….
FL-NC
Member
Hunting at a food source is sound tactics. Why does is matter if it is natural, agricultural, or slung out of a feeder? Deer need to eat. If there is a wild apple tree or something like that in an area, the area around that apple tree will probably always be a good place to put a stand or blind. Once a hunter has located that apple tree, the code has been cracked. Not too much different from mapping things like water sources or known bedding areas, and placing a stand or blind along these routes. Doing this, I shot deer from the same tree for years in Tn. Does the ethics of baiting apply to trapping and fishing too?
whughett
Member
No one can argue that in this country any sort of hunting is necessary for a food source, there may be exceptions but it’s by choice.
So what’s the difference in the methods used, baiting, ground blinds, tree stands, stalking, trapping or reservation shooting. It all comes down to the same thing. I spent many years doing just that but never tried to justify it. Just saying.
So what’s the difference in the methods used, baiting, ground blinds, tree stands, stalking, trapping or reservation shooting. It all comes down to the same thing. I spent many years doing just that but never tried to justify it. Just saying.
jmorris
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The squirrels the OP was talking about was why I asked if it were fair to have pecan trees around. We had 4 in the yard of our last house that provided plenty of pecans for us, anyone that wanted them and the squirrels. It wasn’t uncommon for there to be so many of them running around it looked like a Walt Disney movie but they had become acclimated to the fact that we were not a threat.
In much the same way, there is not pressure on the deer at our place so they too are not tails up running away as we approach the places we bait for hogs. Some times it’s just the opposite. There was nothing at this traps location but after I opened the feeder and went to get the corn this little fellow showed up.
Spend enough time out there with them and they are not scared of anyone. If they like your wife’s flowers, they will come eat them while your sitting on the porch, if they know you are not going to harm them.
Kind of like this one my BIL sent me awhile back. Someone “baited” this bear when they left their food in the truck and didn’t roll up the window.
mcb
Member
The only "fair chase" hunting would be for the would-be hunter to walk into the woods naked, hands empty, and then start their hunt; crafting any tools, gear, and weapons from the resources found in the immediate environment.
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DM~
Member
I guess I'm not a hunter, I planted the tree that those apples came from!!
DM
whughett
Member
Ya, unfortunately all we have is a superior brain. No sharp teeth, no claws, and by comparison slow and clumsy.The only "fair chase" hunting would be for the would be hunter to walk into the woods naked, hands empty, and then start their hunt; crafting any tools, gear, and weapons from the resources found in the immediate environment.
Not to mention an extremely limited comfort zone temperature wise.
mcb
Member
Ya, unfortunately all we have is a superior brain. No sharp teeth, no claws, and by comparison slow and clumsy.
"I was born without claws, without fangs, so I forge them in fire and crafted them of steel" -Anonymous
A favorite quote in some blacksmith circles. I have never found a reliable source of the quote, some say old Norris some say feudal Japan.
Captcurt
Member
No, it is shooting, not hunting. I do it because I was called in to thin does but anyone who can shoot can take a deer from one of my blinds provided the acorn crop is down. I am glad that I learned to hunt deer back before baiting became the norm. With very little agriculture here we had to learn the natural movements and habits of the local quarry. Now when the oaks have a bumper crop I can still figure the deer out, plus I know how to hunt scrapes during the pre-rut.
OP
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Septicdeath
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I new this would be controversial. All great stuff. I'm enjoying the read.
.38 Special
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A few years ago, after another read of "Meditations on Hunting", I decided for myself that the whole discussion could be divided into two categories: "ethics" and "sportsmanship".
"Ethics" are complex. It has to do with the treatment of animals, and many folks will say that any use of animals at all is unethical. For those who have determined to kill and eat animals, I think the important components of ethical hunting are 1) killing as quickly and cleanly as possible, and 2) using as much of the animal as is reasonable. And of course, both of those components are wide open for debate as well. A thirty caliber rifle almost always kills more quickly than does a wooden arrow from a primitive bow, for example. Does that make hunting with a primitive bow unethical? And then there are things like varmint shooting and pest control. Lots of folks shoot coyotes, for example, and leave them to rot, even though they are edible and their hides useful. The same could be said, more or less, for prairie dog shooting. If we are honest with ourselves, a great deal of that is done purely for the enjoyment of targeting live animals. Ethical? It's a big topic.
"Sportsmanship", thankfully, is a lot easier, because it's an entirely human and subjective construct. We can argue about it in a light hearted way, but is it actually important? Most of us would happily eat a cheeseburger, but the way the cow died was hardly "sporting". Do any of us care? I personally have made hunting so "sporting" that I hardly ever actually kill anything. Does that make me a superior human being? There is a part of me that gets pretty smug about it (and that instinct is prevalent enough to earn shooters of flintlocks and wooden bows a certain reputation as being annoying) but realistically, I think I've probably just killed as much as I need to and now enjoy the hunt far more than the kill. So in my opinion, "sportsmanship" is just about setting our personal rules - within the broader legal and ethical framework, of course - for the game we have chosen to play, and while it may be worth applauding the fellow who intentionally makes it more challenging for himself, there should be no shame for the man who chooses the easier route.
"Ethics" are complex. It has to do with the treatment of animals, and many folks will say that any use of animals at all is unethical. For those who have determined to kill and eat animals, I think the important components of ethical hunting are 1) killing as quickly and cleanly as possible, and 2) using as much of the animal as is reasonable. And of course, both of those components are wide open for debate as well. A thirty caliber rifle almost always kills more quickly than does a wooden arrow from a primitive bow, for example. Does that make hunting with a primitive bow unethical? And then there are things like varmint shooting and pest control. Lots of folks shoot coyotes, for example, and leave them to rot, even though they are edible and their hides useful. The same could be said, more or less, for prairie dog shooting. If we are honest with ourselves, a great deal of that is done purely for the enjoyment of targeting live animals. Ethical? It's a big topic.
"Sportsmanship", thankfully, is a lot easier, because it's an entirely human and subjective construct. We can argue about it in a light hearted way, but is it actually important? Most of us would happily eat a cheeseburger, but the way the cow died was hardly "sporting". Do any of us care? I personally have made hunting so "sporting" that I hardly ever actually kill anything. Does that make me a superior human being? There is a part of me that gets pretty smug about it (and that instinct is prevalent enough to earn shooters of flintlocks and wooden bows a certain reputation as being annoying) but realistically, I think I've probably just killed as much as I need to and now enjoy the hunt far more than the kill. So in my opinion, "sportsmanship" is just about setting our personal rules - within the broader legal and ethical framework, of course - for the game we have chosen to play, and while it may be worth applauding the fellow who intentionally makes it more challenging for himself, there should be no shame for the man who chooses the easier route.
dh1633pm
Contributing Member
No other way to hunt chipmunks. If I am hungry baiting works for me. Otherwise, skill with a little luck added.
Chuck R.
Member
Me neither.
I literally built a "deer engagement area" with a heated elevated blind on my back 40:
Feeder
3 food plots
Mineral lick
Apple trees
Pears
Chestnut trees
Persimmons
Sawtooth and Chinkapin oaks
I spend about 10 days a year hunting deer on my place and can now shoot does to my hearts content. Occasionally I'll see an immature buck. I've yet to see a mature buck during legal shooting hrs though, I get them on camera passing through at night. I hardly ever even get pictures of them on or near the feeder. In theory they should come running when the feeder goes off, but we've got so many other food sources here that I think it has limited effect. I'll sometimes go for days without pics of even does at the feeder. The big bucks I have taken have been doing spot-stalk/still hunting on public land.
About the only thing that comes running (waddling actually) to the feeder is an overweight possum and a couple of fox squirrels.
mcb
Member
Why is harvesting the crop vs brush hogging it down make any difference. In both cases its a artificial food source that you are using to attract your targeted hunting species. Why does removing 99% of it make it ok.
How is this different than hunting over the stands of persimmons you found? What if your grandfather planted that stand of persimmons?
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Simply a rose by another name. You are still hunting over an attractant, or as some would say, shooting over an attractant. That folks want to make a terminological distinction to make themselves feel better doesn't change the act.
mcb
Member
My experience if very similar to yours. We have done a lot of work to make our little piece of property a deer and turkey sanctuary. By the time hunting season comes around all the mature bucks have gone nocturnal. We have taken a couple mature bucks off our place and it has always been away from the food plots (our feeders come down during season).
I have 6+ years of game camera photos (I have had 6-9 cameras out 24/7 for nearly that whole time) and I have tried to plot the frequency of deer/turkey/coyote/coon appearing at a given feeder/plot/travel-corridor and have never been able to see a predictable pattern to their appearances. No doubt baiting would increase your probabilities but it is far from predictably reliable.
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jmorris
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Both of those are subjective, and could also almost be combined except “ethics” are not an unchanging set of rules one had for themselves. An “I would never…” changes about the time ones life depends on the decision being made and being ethical or a good sport is of no concern.
In any case, I would also add at least one other category as “lawful”. Is is a set of rules that can be on either side, for better and worse of either of the first two.
alsaqr
Member
IMO: If you don't like shooting deer at feeders and game plots then just don't do it. In Oklahoma baiting deer is legal. However, don't be caught near a feeder in turkey season. i don't shoot deer at feeders, wild hogs get no such consideration.
On one property i've run a feeder year around since 2001. That couple pounds of corn each day helps the does and fawns. Yep, sometimes really nice bucks come in. The deer there know my scent and are not afraid of me. i've had deer approach me while waiting for hogs to show. Last day of Oklahoma deer gun season, 2020 i watched a young buck that scored 160-170 B&C graze on a wheat plot for about 30 minutes while sitting in a blind <40 yards distance.
On one property i've run a feeder year around since 2001. That couple pounds of corn each day helps the does and fawns. Yep, sometimes really nice bucks come in. The deer there know my scent and are not afraid of me. i've had deer approach me while waiting for hogs to show. Last day of Oklahoma deer gun season, 2020 i watched a young buck that scored 160-170 B&C graze on a wheat plot for about 30 minutes while sitting in a blind <40 yards distance.
.38 Special
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I debated with myself over the use of "subjective" and couldn't really come up with a better word. I simply mean that "ethical" can and should be tied to a real thing, namely the suffering of an animal. We can argue about the definition of sportsmanship all day long, but hopefully there are not many THR members who would argue against trying to make a quick, clean kill.
I consider "law" to be a whole 'nother issue, which often enough has nothing at all to do with either ethics or sportsmanship!
JFrank
Member
DM~
Member
Well, obviously I didn't harvest the apples, or they wouldn't be on the ground, now would they??
DM
DM~
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