9mm pressure signs

LeadFlyFly · Jul 29, 2021

I'm working up a +P load for my Glock 48 with Ramshot Silhouette. I've gotten to 5.8 grains (115 gr. HiTek LRN) and max is 6.1 according to the Western Powders manual. Is this where I stop, or should I back up to 5.7 and call that my max?

LiveLife · Jul 29, 2021

Welcome to THR.

When using mixed range brass with unknown reload history, I prefer to use mid-to-high range load data. Besides, optimal accuracy is not always produced with max load data, rather often below max charges.

For max charge loads or duplicate defensive loads for practice, I prefer to use known once-fired brass (Ones I seen go from factory box to pistol).

While I have shot +P/+P+ factory ammunition in my Glocks, I prefer not to reload +P loads. Keep in mind that published load data were tested using NEW brass that are more malleable to contain pressures than work hardened brass that could rupture/split. I see that in your picture, you are using mixed headstamp brass and suggest that you keep your powder charges below published max.

Match shooters using 9mm Major loads will use their brass only once. If you want to test +P loads, I highly recommend you consider using NEW brass.

LeadFlyFly said:
Glock 48 with Ramshot Silhouette ... 5.8 grains (115 gr. HiTek LRN) and max is 6.1 according to the Western Powders manual. Is this where I stop, or should I back up to 5.7 and call that my max?

If you are using mixed range brass and no shorter OAL/COL than published 1.070" (But focus on actual bullet seating depth by subtracting bullet length from COL used) with no bullet setback, I would use 5.7 gr as max charge. Note that seating bullet deeper in the case neck will increase pressures.

If you are using new brass and no shorter OAL/COL than published 1.070" (Bullet seating depth) with no bullet setback, I would work up from 5.7 gr - http://blog.westernpowders.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/WPHandloading-Guide-7.0-Web-REV.pdf

9mm 115 gr Lead Laser Cast RN Silhouette COL 1.070" Start 5.1 gr (1,126 fps) - Max 5.7 gr (1,199 fps) 34,718 PSI
9mm +P 115 gr Lead Laser Cast RN Silhouette COL 1.070" Start 5.7 gr (1,207 fps) - Max 6.1 gr (1,254 fps) 38,381 PSI

LeadFlyFly · Jul 29, 2021

LiveLife said:
Welcome to THR.

When using mixed range brass with unknown reload history, I prefer to use mid-to-high range load data. Besides, optimal accuracy is not always produced with max load data, rather often below max charges.

For max charge loads or duplicate defensive loads for practice, I prefer to use known once-fired brass (Ones I seen go from factory box to pistol).

While I have shot +P/+P+ factory ammunition in my Glocks, I prefer not to reload +P loads. Keep in mind that published load data were tested using NEW brass that are more malleable to contain pressures than worked hardened brass that could rupture/split. I see that in your picture, you are using mixed headstamp brass and suggest that you keep your powder charges below published max.

Match shooters using 9mm Major loads will use their brass only once. If you want to test +P loads, I highly recommend you consider using NEW brass.

If you are using mixed range brass and no shorter OAL/COL than published 1.070" (But focus on actual bullet seating depth by subtracting bullet length from COL used) with no bullet setback, I would use 5.7 gr as max charge. Note that seating bullet deeper in the case neck will increase pressures.

If you are using new brass and no shorter OAL/COL than published 1.070" (Bullet seating depth) with no bullet setback, I would work up from 5.7 gr - http://blog.westernpowders.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/WPHandloading-Guide-7.0-Web-REV.pdf

9mm 115 gr Lead Laser Cast RN Silhouette COL 1.070" Start 5.1 gr (1,126 fps) - Max 5.7 gr (1,199 fps) 34,718 PSI

9mm +P 115 gr Lead Laser Cast RN Silhouette COL 1.070" Start 5.7 gr (1,207 fps) - Max 6.1 gr (1,254 fps) 38,381 PSI

Thanks for the info- much appreciated!! Here is my 5.7 gr:

So based on what you see here, would you say that 5.8 grains is safe?

LeadFlyFly · Jul 29, 2021

As I read your reply again, I think the answer to my question of whether 5.8 grains is safe will be "maybe". That probably translates as "no" in this case- beginning reloader without a ton of experience (just coming back to it after decades away), mixed brass, etc.

LiveLife · Jul 29, 2021

And if you are simply looking for higher velocity loads (around 1200 fps), consider powder selection as you can achieve higher velocities with standard pressure load like Alliant BE-86 (Note Speer TMJ is thick plated bullet loaded longer at 1.135" and using shorter OAL/deeper bullet seating will require reduction in powder charge, especially since Hi-Tek coated bullet is likely sized larger at .356") -
https://reloadingdata.speer.com/downloads/speer/reloading-pdfs/handgun/9mm_Luger__115_rev1.pdf

9mm 115 gr Speer TMJ RN BE86 COL 1.135" Start 5.4 gr (1136 fps) - Max 6.2 gr (1241 fps)

LeadFlyFly · Jul 29, 2021

LiveLife said:
And if you are simply looking for higher velocity loads (around 1200 fps), consider powder selection as you can achieve higher velocities with standard pressure load like Alliant BE-86 (Note Speer TMJ is thick plated bullet loaded longer at 1.135" and using shorter OAL/deeper bullet seating will require reduction in powder charge, especially since Hi-Tek coated bullet is likely sized larger at .356") -
https://reloadingdata.speer.com/downloads/speer/reloading-pdfs/handgun/9mm_Luger__115_rev1.pdf

9mm 115 gr Speer TMJ RN BE86 COL 1.135" Start 5.4 gr (1136 fps) - Max 6.2 gr (1241 fps)

Thank you for all the information- much appreciated!! I've only got one powder right now- 4 pounds of the Ramshot Silhouette. I do have some HS-6 and 2400 coming for a 357 GP100 that I just bought. Looks like the HS-6 can work for 9mm as well. Not thinking about velocity- hot loads are just fun sometimes, and also I want to practice and become proficient with heavier recoil loads in case I ever need to use my Glock defensively. The starting load of 5.1 grains Silhouette was pretty darn accurate, but quite a bit of yellow residue which I understand is unburned powder. Very little of that at 5.7 or 5.8 grains.

LiveLife · Jul 29, 2021

LeadFlyFly said:
As I read your reply again, I think the answer to my question of whether 5.8 grains is safe will be "maybe". That probably translates as "no" in this case

Not exactly. 115 gr RN, especially FMJ profile with more pointed nose ogive has shorter bullet base that produce less neck tension than 124/147 gr RN bullets and to optimize accuracy, I have pushed near max load data with shorter 1.110" OAL.

But in recent years, lead bullet molds have been modified to produce RN bullets that have shorter rounder nose to produce longer bullet base (For greater neck tension). Look at the comparison picture below and see if your Hi-Tek coated RN has nose profile closer to MBC RN with longer base.

Just because published load data listed 1.070" for Laser Cast RN doesn't mean your Hi-Tek coated RN will have the same nose profile to produce same bullet seating depth. To verify this, you would need to subtract the bullet length from the COL. If your Hi-Tek RN is shorter than LC RN, using same COL will produce shallower seated bullet base.

So if you are pushing for higher velocity load, particularly with mixed range brass, start with longest OAL/COL that will work with your barrel/pistol/magazine to feed reliably for your initial powder work up using standard pressure load data. If your OAL/COL is longer than published and you have worked up to max powder charge, you can then incrementally (Say by .005") decrease the OAL/COL down to published length. But if you do not attain the velocity you are looking for, especially with mixed range brass, instead of using +P load data, you can consider switching powder to like BE-86.

LeadFlyFly · Jul 29, 2021

Ohhhh I'm learning a lot here!! My bullets are from Summit City Bullets and are .545 long. Tricky to tell the profile.

LiveLife · Jul 29, 2021

LeadFlyFly said:
Not thinking about velocity- hot loads are just fun sometimes, and also I want to practice and become proficient with heavier recoil loads in case I ever need to use my Glock defensively.

You posted while I typed.

For decades, I have used WSF to duplicate factory premium JHP I carried using the same Speer Gold Dot HP/Remington Golden Saber JHP bulk bullets to load practice rounds due to higher velocities it produced. In recent years, I have switched to BE-86 for even greater velocities and accuracy.

When I shot USPSA, we did all kinds of comparison shootings during practice sessions and when we conducted factory premium JHP vs our slower target/match loads at typical defensive shooting distance of 5-7 yards, difference in POI was about an inch. So matching velocity is not crucial to replicating defensive load for practice.

If you want to duplicate the felt recoil of factory loads for practice, I found faster burning powders like Bullseye, Red Dot/Promo, Titegroup to produce comparable "Thump" of felt recoil with not much deviation of POI from POA. These days with 115 gr FMJ/RN bullets, my general purpose range blasting/training load is with 4.0-4.2 gr Red Dot/Promo that produce lighter than Federal/Winchester white box ammunition. If I want more "factory like" felt recoil practice, I increase powder charge to 4.3-4.5 gr.

LeadFlyFly · Jul 29, 2021

The overall shape is like the Missouri bullet- the dardas and zcast have a line that separates the tip from the base. Hard to tell on the ogive when I don't have any others for comparison here. How does it look to you?

CMB · Jul 29, 2021

My primers always look like that on the M&P. Its just the way the firing pin hole is shaped.

LiveLife · Jul 29, 2021

LeadFlyFly said:
My bullets are from Summit City Bullets and are .545 long ... How does it look to you?

Looks like your 115 gr RN is newer profile that increases the bullet base length. So at same COL, should produce shallower bullet seating depth than longer bullet with more pointed nose.

LeadFlyFly said:
dardas and zcast have a line that separates the tip from the base.

The line you see is actually a "step" to clear the start of rifling on barrels with shorter leade. But due to the longer more pointed nose, this decreased the bullet base length (And reduced neck tension). With "stepped" RN bullets, I can use 1.125" even for my barrel with very short leade but with more rounder non-stepped bullets, I need to use shorter OAL/COL to clear the start of rifling.

Your bullet nose profile produces longer bullet base for greater neck tension (Which is a plus in my book).

BTW, here's Laser Cast 115 gr RN profile (Looks similar in profile to bullet you are using) - https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010786359

243winxb · Jul 29, 2021

5.7 grs with mixed brass is your maximum.

Added- Bullets set back with mixed brass needs to be watched also.

GeoDudeFlorida · Jul 29, 2021

243winxb said:
5.7 grs with mixed brass is your maximum.

Yup, and seconded.

LiveLife said:
If you want to test +P loads, I highly recommend you consider using NEW brass.

Mixed brass or ANY worn brass, keep it to moderate or at least less than max. Unless y'all want a new nickname - like "Stumpy" or "One-Eye" - anything "+P" in a self-loader is strictly for NEW brass.

fxvr5 · Jul 29, 2021

OP, since you're looking at fast 9mm handloads, you might find this article of interest:
https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/fast-9mm-loads/388612

Rule3 · Jul 29, 2021

Ramshot Silhouette is a pretty darn fast powder, you are pushing the envelope. if you go any further. Seat the bullet to deep or a tad to much powder and then you have a real problem. Why do you need +P loads??

It is near impossible to read "pressure signs" in a handgun caliber. It usually is to late when you find out with some major failure.

EricBu · Jul 29, 2021

The last time I saw somebody work up a +P load with mixed range brass for a Glock.......we had to get a ladder and climb up on the roof to find the slide... Hope you're roll sizing or bulge busting that brass....

fxvr5 · Jul 29, 2021

Silhouette isn't that fast. It's well suited to 9mm and +P loads. Data from Western Powders shows it on par with Accurate #7 with respect to pressure and velocity in the 9mm.

9mm +P data for 115 grain lead Laser Cast round nose, 1.070 OAL. Winchester brass, WSP primer;

Silhouette, Max 6.1gr, 1,254 fps, 38,381 psi.
A#7, Max 8.3gr, 1,258 fps, 38,054 psi.

Silhouette is short only 4 fps, with only ~300 psi more pressure.

Also, Silhouette is used by competitors for 9 Major.
https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2018/1/9/how-to-use-9-major-in-a-short-barrel/

I've found Silhouette to be a wonderful powder for the 9mm. I've not used it much with lead bullets, but with jacketed bullets it produces excellent accuracy, even at +P and +P+ loads.

Otto · Jul 29, 2021

LeadFlyFly said:
So based on what you see here, would you say that 5.8 grains is safe?

IMO, Yes.
To me, 5.8 gr is pretty anemic….it’s light years from approaching 9 Major.
I’d be more concerned with your loading techniques and experience. When a gun comes apart in your hands, 99% of the time it’s due to carelessness. Learn to walk before you try to run.

greyling22 · Jul 29, 2021

I don't see any obvious signs on pressure on those primers. But I question why are are running coated lead bullets fast anyway. Back those powder charges down. Your paper target will never feel those extra 50 fps.

I start my reloads at the minimum and usually work down until the gun stops cycling or accuracy goes to poo. For a new reloader, I recommend starting at the bottom and working up no more than to the midpoint of your data.

but you do you.

GeoDudeFlorida · Jul 29, 2021

greyling22 said:
I start my reloads at the minimum and usually work down until the gun stops cycling or accuracy goes to poo.

Yup and yup. Me too. Most of what I shoot with a self-loading pistol is already dead. No sense killing it again.

LeadFlyFly · Jul 29, 2021

greyling22 said:
I don't see any obvious signs on pressure on those primers. But I question why are are running coated lead bullets fast anyway. Back those powder charges down. Your paper target will never feel those extra 50 fps.

I start my reloads at the minimum and usually work down until the gun stops cycling or accuracy goes to poo. For a new reloader, I recommend starting at the bottom and working up no more than to the midpoint of your data.

but you do you.

I'm using the Western Powders data for lead. Some of the jacketed 115gr data goes up to 6.6 grains maximum charge. 115 lead stops at 6.1 grains.

The book says 5.7 starting and 6.1 max, so midpoint would be 5.9 and I'm at 5.8.

fxvr5 · Jul 29, 2021

LeadFlyFly said:
I'm using the Western Powders data for lead. Some of the jacketed 115gr data goes up to 6.6 grains maximum charge. 115 lead stops at 6.1 grains.

That's mostly because of the short OAL of the lead bullet.

GeoDudeFlorida · Jul 29, 2021

LeadFlyFly said:
I'm using the Western Powders data for lead. Some of the jacketed 115gr data goes up to 6.6 grains maximum charge. 115 lead stops at 6.1 grains.

The book says 5.7 starting and 6.1 max, so midpoint would be 5.9 and I'm at 5.8.

For +P. Which is fine with new brass or once fired from at standard pressure and your guns -so you know it’s once fired and at what pressure (approximately). NOT mixed head stamp random pickup range brass.
But, like the man said, you do you.

lordpaxman · Jul 30, 2021

LeadFlyFly said:
I'm working up a +P load for my Glock 48 with Ramshot Silhouette. I've gotten to 5.8 grains (115 gr. HiTek LRN) and max is 6.1 according to the Western Powders manual. Is this where I stop, or should I back up to 5.7 and call that my max?
View attachment 1014721

I wouldn’t attempt +P loads without a chrono to help determine if I was approaching a kaboom. Even then, you only have V, not P so it’s a guess, but an educated one, and one I’d trust more than trying to read pressure signs on a 9mm case. Good luck.

9mm pressure signs

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