.22 hollowpoint Effectiveness

I personally witnessed a black bear dropped with a shot to the center of the head by a 22lr from a Single Six. Folded right in his tracks. He had been wounded earlier and when tracked it was still very much alive but standing on three legs.

I've seen hogs and steers dropped in their tracks with a .22 also. Sometimes just .22 shorts even. But that's an animal standing there, pretty docile, waiting on some food or whatever...not an animal that's trying to rob/injure/kill you with possibly a gun of their own.

Frank Ettin said:

In the context of self defense the point is to stop the assailant quickly -- before he can hurt you (or another innocent). If your assailant is able to complete his attack, even though shot, and leave you maimed or dead, it will be a small comfort to you and your loved ones that the assailant ultimately died from his .22 lr wound.

We have data, and there are studies, and we have a good deal of knowledge about wound physiology which generally show, with regard to self defense, the following:

1. Pretty much every cartridge ever made has at times succeeded at quickly stopping an assailant.
   
   
2. Pretty much every cartridge ever made has at times failed at quickly stopping an assailant.
   
   
3. Considering ballistic gelatin performance, data available on real world incidents, an understanding of wound physiology and psychology, certain cartridges with certain bullets are more likely to be more effective more of the time.
   
   
4. For defensive use in a handgun the 9mm Luger, .38 Special +P, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, .357 Magnum, and other, similar cartridges when of high quality manufacture, and loaded with expanding bullets appropriately designed for their respective velocities to both expand and penetrate adequately, are reasonably good choices.

Let's consider how shooting someone will actually cause him to stop what he's doing.

• The goal is to stop the assailant.
  
  
• There are four ways in which shooting someone stops him:
  
  • psychological -- "I'm shot, it hurts, I don't want to get shot any more."
    
    
  • massive blood loss depriving the muscles and brain of oxygen and thus significantly impairing their ability to function
    
    
  • breaking major skeletal support structures
    
    
  • damaging the central nervous system.
  
  Depending on someone just giving up because he's been shot is iffy. Probably most fights are stopped that way, but some aren't; and there are no guarantees.
  
  Breaking major skeletal structures can quickly impair mobility. But if the assailant has a gun, he can still shoot. And it will take a reasonably powerful round to reliably penetrate and break a large bone, like the pelvis.
  
  Hits to the central nervous system are sure and quick, but the CNS presents a small and uncertain target. And sometimes significant penetration will be needed to reach it.
  
  The most common and sure physiological way in which shooting someone stops him is blood loss -- depriving the brain and muscles of oxygen and nutrients, thus impairing the ability of the brain and muscles to function. Blood loss is facilitated by (1) large holes causing tissue damage; (2) getting the holes in the right places to damage major blood vessels or blood bearing organs; and (3) adequate penetration to get those holes into the blood vessels and organs which are fairly deep in the body. The problem is that blood loss takes time. People have continued to fight effectively when gravely, even mortally, wounded. So things that can speed up blood loss, more holes, bigger holes, better placed holes, etc., help.
  
  So as a rule of thumb --
  
  • More holes are better than fewer holes.
    
    
  • Larger holes are better than smaller holes.
    
    
  • Holes in the right places are better than holes in the wrong places.
    
    
  • Holes that are deep enough are better than holes that aren't.
    
    
  • There are no magic bullets.
    
    
  • There are no guarantees.
  
  
• With regard to the issue of psychological stops see
  
  • this study, entitled "An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power" by Greg Ellifritz. And take special notice of his data on failure to incapacitate rates set out in the table headed "Here are the results."
    
    As Ellifritz notes in his discussion of his "failure to incapacitate" data (emphasis added):
    
    ​
    • There are two sets of data in the Ellifritz study: incapacitation and failure to incapacitate. They present some contradictions.
      
      • Considering the physiology of wounding, the data showing high incapacitation rates for light cartridges seems anomalous.
        
        
      • Furthermore, those same light cartridges which show high rates of incapacitation also show high rates of failures to incapacitate. In addition, heavier cartridges which show incapacitation rates comparable to the lighter cartridges nonetheless show lower failure to incapacitate rates.
        
        
      • And note that the failure to incapacitate rates of the 9mm Luger, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and .44 Magnum were comparable to each other.
        
        
      • If the point of the exercise is to help choose cartridges best suited to self defense application, it would be helpful to resolve those contradictions.
        
        
      • A way to try to resolve those contradictions is to better understand the mechanism(s) by which someone who has been shot is caused to stop what he is doing.
      
      
    • The two data sets and the apparent contradiction between them (and as Ellifritz wrote) thus strongly suggest that there are two mechanisms by which someone who has been shot will be caused to stop what he is doing.
      
      • One mechanism is psychological. This was alluded to by both Ellifritz and FBI agent and firearms instructor Urey Patrick. Sometimes the mere fact of being shot will cause someone to stop. When this is the stopping mechanism, the cartridge used really doesn't matter. One stops because his mind tells him to because he's been shot, not because of the amount of damage the wound has done to his body.
        
        
      • The other mechanism is physiological. If the body suffers sufficient damage, the person will be forced to stop what he is doing because he will be physiologically incapable of continuing. Heavier cartridges with large bullets making bigger holes are more likely to cause more damage to the body than lighter cartridges. Therefore, if the stopping mechanism is physiological, lighter cartridges are more likely to fail to incapacitate.
      
      
    • And in looking at any population of persons who were shot and therefore stopped what they were doing, we could expect that some stopped for psychological reasons. We could also expect others would not be stopped psychologically and would not stop until they were forced to because their bodies became physiologically incapable of continuing.
      
      
    • From that perspective, the failure to incapacitate data is probably more important. That essentially tells us that when Plan A (a psychological stop) fails, we must rely on Plan B (a physiological stop) to save our bacon; and a heavier cartridge would have a lower [Plan B] failure rate.
  • Also see the FBI paper entitled "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness", by Urey W. Patrick. Agent Patrick, for example, notes on page 8:
    
    ​
  • And for some more insight into wound physiology and "stopping power":
    
    • Dr. V. J. M. DiMaio (DiMaio, V. J. M., M. D., Gunshot Wounds, Elsevier Science Publishing Company, 1987, pg. 42, as quoted in In Defense of Self and Others..., Patrick, Urey W. and Hall, John C., Carolina Academic Press, 2010, pg. 83):
      
      ​
      
      
    • And further in In Defense of Self and Others... (pp. 83-84, emphasis in original):
      
      ​
      
      
    • And further in In Defense of Self and Others... (pp. 95-96, emphasis in original):
      
      ​
  
  And sometimes a .357 Magnum doesn't work all that well. LAPD Officer Stacy Lim who was shot in the chest with a .357 Magnum and still ran down her attacker, returned fire, killed him, survived, and ultimately was able to return to duty. She was off duty and heading home after a softball game and a brief stop at the station to check her work assignment. According to the article I linked to:
  
  ​

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This is about as good as it gets. I can think of at least a dozen applicable threads this belongs in. You should copy and paste whenever the discussion comes up.

However, I don't see the harm in these "dead horse" discussions. We have new members showing up all the time and who knows what kind of BS they grew up on and these discussions, the above quoted post specifically, can help dispel some of the horsehockey and set people straight on the nonsense......

"better than nothing" is not a criteria that should be used by choice.
The goal of SD is to stop attacker(s) ASAP and that does not change based on location.
My philosophy is: Of the concealable* handguns owned, strive to carry one that would be preferred to defend yourself with.
Nowhere would I prefer to defend my life with 22lr, 25 acp, 32 acp, 380, 38 special.
How about 22 lr, 25 acp, 32 acp, 380, or 38 special for a "quick trip to the store" in a "good area"? No, ASAP incapacitation, line #2.

*Concealable - work clothes may be a legitimate restraint on what is concealable.
Otherwise, a Glock 19 size pistol is concealable, even in summer; I'm in FL, carry a Glock 19 everywhere.
Untuck your shirt, wear loose fit with a pattern, stripe, or print and your options for "concealable" increase.

kje54 said:

Lots of misinformation and myths out there concerning .22 lethality.
What do you think?

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I think I'd rather not get shot with one.

We use to cut the very end of the .22 round nose off, did alot more damage to the ground hogs and such, there's a custom revolver company out west (Arizona?) can't remember name, that sells a jig to cut the end of your 22lr off, 3 or 4 at a time...

I have never shot a person with a 22, and don't care to. I have shot numerous critters like coons and possums with them. With my 22 pistol, I always need multiple rounds to put down these things quickly and humanely, with the last 1 or 2 going into the head at contact range. Even when I hunted squirrels with a 22 rifle, I often had them still very much alive when I went to pick them up unless I had scored a head shot. If these are the effects with standard velocity 22 LR HP on these things, the results aren't very inspiring for use against anything bigger- especially if it is a person that wants to harm me.

kje54 said:

What do you think?

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I think there are a lot of opinions formed without much personal experience. I am a big fan of the .22’s but the least powerful round I have choosn for medium and up game animals would be a 30-30.

That said, I have killed lots and lots of pigs with .22’s, would go as far to say, that’s all you really need for them in a trap.



The last one standing is the one that won’t present you with the needed head shot.



Works day or night though.



When I was a kid, they used an old Winchester (.22 short) behind the grocery store in town to kill the cattle (1000lbs +/- animals), before they were carved up and put into the display inside.

Now the ability to put them where they need to go gets more difficult the further away from them you get but I got this pig last year from 88 yards with a 40 gn Aquila solid. It didn’t take a single step.



.22 would be one of my last choice firearms to defend my life with, that would be too close to “hanging by a thread” for my liking. It works, unless it doesn’t. Less margin for error but even the most powerful firearms don’t get rid of that altogether.

bassjam said:

I don't know that anyone believes that a .22 will ricochet backwards after a direct hit,

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Half a century ago shooting at the local dump, I shot at a rust spot on a old well pressure tank with my .22. Bullet bounced straight back and hit my little brother, who was standing next to me waiting his turn to shoot, in the face. I believe.

22 LR has its place for target and hunting. The new Federal personal defense Punch HP ammo appears to be most effective round in the caliber. At least gel tests show that to be so. Accuracy is critical with small. calibers because penetration will be deficient and expansion will be very small. Shooting with a rifle will get the round up to a reasonable velocity for hunting small game. But for self defense with a handgun I would say it is appropriate only if the person cannot manage shooting a larger caliber or racking larger caliber semis. If that were my situation, I would go to a revolver before 22.

kje54 said:

BTW, this is NOT a "I think .22s are the best defensive rounds out there and I'm justifying my belief" thread. It's more aimed at those who think .22s are a waste of time and money because it's worthless as a defensive round. Would it be my first choice for a defensive round? No, not if I could afford a more powerful sidearm of which I own a few but if it's all I had I wouldn't hesitate to use it in a defensive situation with the knowledge it would kill or severely injure an assailent.

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For someone that cannot handle a larger caliber due to infirmity or inexperience a 22 or chambered rifle would make a reasonable self defense choice. A 10/22 or an MP-22 fitted with a red dot and hi cap mags would give someone the best chances of making quality hits

kje54 said:

Conversely A friend of mine's brother was shot 5 times in the side with a .22 short at almost point blank range back in the 70s. The rounds lodged in the muscle tissue, maybe a half inch penetration. That said he was a young body builder with almost no fat on him and I don't know what he was wearing at the time. I also have no idea if the shooter was using under powered ammo and again they were short ball rounds so lots of factors involved.

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Funny was the gun ever found? Had a friend who’s dad gave him a ROHM 22 short pistol. Said he picked it up off a floor of a bar. Where a gentleman shot another gentleman w it 6 times and got the snot beat out of him for it.

Succinct, and I agree, Riomouse911.

Riomouse911 said:

Can a .22 LR kill a person? Sure it can.

Do I think that there are other handgun calibers that will stop an attacker more reliably than a .22 with similar hit placement? Yes.

Would I prefer a .22 in my hand over no gun at all? Yup.

Do I ever want to be in a position where I had to find out? Nope.

Stay safe.

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Roknstevo said:

I’ve shot many deer, hogs, and gators with .22 LR. I always picked my shots very carefully. Eye and ear holes were best, and usually resulted in one shot kills. This was in my teen years during which I hunted, both for food as well as money. Times were very different back then. I was fairly wild. Lived on my own devices, as I had no stable family. One thing I learned was quiet kills were the best kills. Then the War came along.......

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This. Lots of old timers swear by a .22 for everything from trap lines to poaching out of season deer.

Paul R Zartman said:

We use to cut the very end of the .22 round nose off, did alot more damage to the ground hogs and such, there's a custom revolver company out west (Arizona?) can't remember name, that sells a jig to cut the end of your 22lr off, 3 or 4 at a time...

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Paco Kelly used to sell a tool like this, and I’ve seen one made by a local machinist before….same idea. I believe Gary Reeder used to make such a tool as well.

kje54 said:

Conversely A friend of mine's brother was shot 5 times in the side with a .22 short at almost point blank range back in the 70s. The rounds lodged in the muscle tissue, maybe a half inch penetration. That said he was a young body builder with almost no fat on him and I don't know what he was wearing at the time. I also have no idea if the shooter was using under powered ammo and again they were short ball rounds so lots of factors involved.

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Sounds like they were .22 BB caps, usually no powder, round 16 grain ball.

.22 CB caps have a conical projectile, 26 grains, and sometimes have a dab of propellant.

Both are sub velocity rounds, which have their purpose in gallery or basement shooting.

Firing many of these with their short cases may tesult in chamber fouling which could make subsequent chambering of regular shorts or long rifles difficult, so run a bore brush or BoreSnake through after use. CCI makes what is essentially a CB cap, but with a .22 short case.

Terry, 230RN

I've always liked this video for a 22lr test. It makes want a Ruger LCP also.

Anchorite said:

This. Lots of old timers swear by a .22 for everything from trap lines to poaching out of season deer.

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Father I law used to poach deer w a 22 mag. By poach I mean feed his family. Not killing just to do it.

Meeks36 said:

Father I law used to poach deer w a 22 mag. By poach I mean feed his family. Not killing just to do it.

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From what I've heard, Dad used a 22LR. That was a long time ago though - before I was old enough to wonder where the meat we ate came from, and I'm 73.

ThomasT said:

I've always liked this video for a 22lr test. It makes want a Ruger LCP also.

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Made me hungry.

Terry, 230RN

230RN said:

Made me hungry.

Terry, 230RN

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I admit, those beef ribs looked good.

If you want more on 22lr effectiveness pick up the book Vengeance about the Israeli Mossad agents sent to kill the terrorist behind the 1972 Munich killing of the Israeli athletes. The movie "Munich" was based off the book but the book is 10 times better.

https://www.amazon.com/Vengeance-True-Story-Israeli-Counter-Terrorist/dp/0743291646

22 lr hp effectiveness?! Yes, it'll get the job done with enough rounds but if you're life is on the line, seconds count. Splash versus penetration? With a 22 lr, I'll take penetration every time unless it's small varmints.

When using a 22 lrhp for PD, apply to face, repeat as necessary.

there may well be alot of gun newbies in the past couple of years who would be better served getting an easily-and cheaply-practiced 22lr something for suburban home protection, than a polymer 9mm semiauto blaster or an “assault rifle” because that’s what john wick carries.

those of us of a certain age and gray hair started out with 22lr rifles. i daresay that i got better firearms training as a young lad in a nra rifle club with a 22lr bolt action rifle than i did a few years later in the army with the m14 and m16, and our familiarization firing with clapped out m1911 45acp pistols was a hot mess.

as we inevitably age and become infirm, a well-practiced 22lr handgun may be our last defensive piece.

there are lots of utube videos on the defensive use of 22lr firearms, here is another one: