Gus Chiggins
Member
This is where I got my shotgun training.
Destroying some sacred shotgun myths
- Thread starter kje54
- Start date
- Status
herrwalther
Member
- Joined
- May 1, 2013
- Messages
- 8,130
Physics isn't his forte. He is like most people and thinks he knows physics. I just ignore mistakes like that as willful ignorance in pursuit of a point.
The Glockodile
Member
- Joined
- May 6, 2020
- Messages
- 1,688
I, for one, am clothed immensely in this blissful ignorance you speak of.
"Engineer."
"Physics."
"Ballistics."
"Momentum."
"Kinetic Energy."
"Data."
Last edited:
Roknstevo
Member
I have a 12ga 3-1/2” magnum pump with a 26” barrel. With full choke I fired two shots from 30’ using 3” magnum #6 shot....just to check out the gun. Those two shots blew a hole thru a 1/2” sheet of plywood big enough to stick my fist thru.....that’ll work. I had a friend who, 60 yrs ago, shot his brother in the rear end by accident with 12ga #8 shot while quail hunting from about 10 yds. He blew the entire cheek off his ass and his brother almost bled to death before making the docs office. Anyone telling me bird shot won’t stop an intruder is speaking with opinion, not fact.
herrwalther
Member
- Joined
- May 1, 2013
- Messages
- 8,130
There are 2 good videos I like to watch about birdshot effectiveness. One by the late, great Jeff Quinn.
The other by Paul Harrell doing Turkey loads at HD distances.
Conclusion from both: Birdshot works at HD distance if you choose the right shell. Some birdshot should be used just for birds at far distance. The right birdshot at close range is effective.
Again if bird shot is dang awesome why does Leo and the military use buck? Not doubting that a well placed shot could take someone out. But why chance it? If the person you are pointing it at is hell bent on hurting you then I want to stop the threat cold. And a butt cheek is a different animal then a breast plate covered by muscle, a shirt, or a jacket. To each there own. But for me and mines we use #4 buck.
herrwalther
Member
- Joined
- May 1, 2013
- Messages
- 8,130
Well for one, limited liability comes to mind. I cannot tell you how many times I watched houses or entire blocks got wiped out in firefights in Afghanistan to take down a a number of armed fighters. Notice, birdshot is only considered when over penetration is a determining factor. Military and LEO use buckshot in shotguns because they rarely face repercussions for collateral damage. The good or bad of that decision aside, it is true. As a private citizen, over penetration should be a consideration at the very least. You made the decision to use #4 buck. I load my shotgun mostly with mini shells which use #1 and #4 buck. And if a new shooter in my classes wants to use birdshot, for whatever reason, I make sure they have enough information to make an informed decision about their ammo choice.
Over Penetration can be a problem that’s why we use #4 buck. Has enough butt to get to vitals but not enough to sail through. And I will add if one does choose to use a bird shot I would use a heavy shot. Steel bismuth or tungsten. Have to get to those vitals. Nasty shallow wounds do not stop threats. And the police are liable for missed shots or through and throughs. They might not end up in prison but then can and will get the snot sued out of them. Especially nowadays!
Roknstevo
Member
I didn’t intend to be difficult, just use my experience in fact. I don’t use birdshot, either, in my bedside pump gun. It stays full of 3” magnum 00 buckshot. A shotgun in the right hands is a devastating weapon, bird or buck shot. I knew grunts in Vietnam who wouldn’t leave the wire without their pump guns. When you’re pumping 9 .30 cal rounds downrange in thick brush every time you pull the trigger, I’m very glad you’re on my side in a firefight. Be safe out there.......
With 28 years in L.E., that's news to me. As evidence by recent events, we face repercussions when shooting an armed suspect actively shooting at us...so sending buckshot pellets through or beside a target into an innocent is definitely going to bring repercussions. L.E. uses buckshot because it's a fight-stopper...with the understanding of it's limitations and consequences.
herrwalther
Member
- Joined
- May 1, 2013
- Messages
- 8,130
The number of civil lawsuits brought by bystanders against police officers argue otherwise.
https://www.local10.com/news/local/...wsuit-over-miramar-ups-truck-driver-shooting/
https://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/11/...police-face-uphill-fight-to-win-lawsuits.html
https://www.cnn.com/2012/08/25/justice/new-york-empire-state-shooting/index.html
As I said, a civilian faces far more criminal liability in a shooting than police or military. I am not advocating for all or even most people to use birdshot in a shotgun. But to know all the options available and choose the best option for their situation.
Nope
DustyGmt
Member
See
The ATF doesn't specify what sort of "positive manually operated safety device" is required. Anything that serves in that role will do.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/form/factoring-criteria-weapons-atf-form-4590/download
The ATF doesn't specify what sort of "positive manually operated safety device" is required. Anything that serves in that role will do.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/form/factoring-criteria-weapons-atf-form-4590/download
Seedy Character
Member
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2021
- Messages
- 2,064
Pattern your shotgun at 5 and 7 yards. Typical range in a home. You may be shocked or surprised. A 10" circle is normal. The SIZE of shot will not matter much.
Build a "wall". 2x4 frame with sheetrock on both sides. Shoot with your preferred load.
I was at a Hunter Education Instructors conference. Dr Red Duke was key note speaker.
Dr Duke was lead trauma surgeon at Hospital in Galveston. He was very familiar with gun shot wounds. I asked him about the shot size debate?
" think of it this way. A shallow wound implies all pellets hit at the same time. A shot column is not a circle, but a column. That first pellet may or may not penetrate, but the impact leaves a void. The next pellet IMPACTS deeper, not penetrates. Now, would you prefer 9 holes from buckshot or 700 holes from smaller shots?
I can't find and patch that many holes. A liver hit with birdshot, looks like it went through a screen. My shotgun stays loaded with heavy 6s."
Based on HIS experience and explanation. I am loaded with turkey loads. 1 5/8 oz heavy shot, high velocity 5s.
From shooting a coyote in the face, at 10 yards. I am confident in their performance.
I had used 3" 1 7/8oz BB, up to that point.
Having kids in the house, I never liked the thought of buckshot and over-penetration.
Build a "wall". 2x4 frame with sheetrock on both sides. Shoot with your preferred load.
I was at a Hunter Education Instructors conference. Dr Red Duke was key note speaker.
Dr Duke was lead trauma surgeon at Hospital in Galveston. He was very familiar with gun shot wounds. I asked him about the shot size debate?
" think of it this way. A shallow wound implies all pellets hit at the same time. A shot column is not a circle, but a column. That first pellet may or may not penetrate, but the impact leaves a void. The next pellet IMPACTS deeper, not penetrates. Now, would you prefer 9 holes from buckshot or 700 holes from smaller shots?
I can't find and patch that many holes. A liver hit with birdshot, looks like it went through a screen. My shotgun stays loaded with heavy 6s."
Based on HIS experience and explanation. I am loaded with turkey loads. 1 5/8 oz heavy shot, high velocity 5s.
From shooting a coyote in the face, at 10 yards. I am confident in their performance.
I had used 3" 1 7/8oz BB, up to that point.
Having kids in the house, I never liked the thought of buckshot and over-penetration.
TRUTH!
Because they answer calls to everything. Some vary what is 1st up, 2nd up, and, and.....
You are not familiar with some modern "bird" shot. There are multiple varieties available that would stop the hell bent.
shoobe01
Member
I am old enough I saw Experienced Police Gunfighter types who wrote articles in the gun rags (the YouTuber of the 80s!) espouse too many shotgun myths. #3 and adjacent were a number of very silly things that made too many folks carry shotguns long after it was the best idea:
- Specifically carry it cruiser ready (chamber empty, hammer down, mag loaded) to be able to rack it to — and it was claimed this happened All The Time — scare BGs from taking the fight further
- Polish the muzzle so there's a visible ring, something about the yawning void of the massive 12 ga scaring the bad guys.
- Carry a mariner — bright plated gun, Mossberg and Winchester made them — because even more visible. Make a point at traffic stops, etc to have the cover guy hold the shotgun visibly. Scary! Avoids fights!
Seedy Character
Member
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2021
- Messages
- 2,064
"Polish the muzzle so there's a visible ring, something about the yawning void of the massive 12 ga scaring the bad guys"
My sister was married to drunk that decided to use her as punching bag. She called my brother to throw out and beat his as, because she was afraid I would probably have killed him.
When she did call me, it was looking for something in case he came back.
She is 5' nothing, 100# maybe and extremely recoil sensitive.
My buddy is a professional gunsmith. He had a Rem 870 .410 that a "customer" had brought in and wanted him to " make it into the ultimate squirrel gun ".
He wanted the barrel 8" and a 4" 12ga barrel waged on "to open the pattern".
After telling him his idea wouldn't work as planned. He insisted on the work. Price was settled and job performed.
He picked up the gun, used it one weekend and brought it back. Said to put it on the consignment rack.
It sat on the rack for 2 years. Many looked, laughed and walked on.
I call make an off based on worth of a GOOD 870 minus cost of new barrel.
He accepted.
Taught sister operations and loaded 2 1/2" 6s.
3 days later, drunk shows up. I can't say 100% for sure that the door opening and a 12ga barrel being between his eyes sobered him up and changed his mind, BUT he left post haste, needed a change of underwear and never returned.
My sister was married to drunk that decided to use her as punching bag. She called my brother to throw out and beat his as, because she was afraid I would probably have killed him.
When she did call me, it was looking for something in case he came back.
She is 5' nothing, 100# maybe and extremely recoil sensitive.
My buddy is a professional gunsmith. He had a Rem 870 .410 that a "customer" had brought in and wanted him to " make it into the ultimate squirrel gun ".
He wanted the barrel 8" and a 4" 12ga barrel waged on "to open the pattern".
After telling him his idea wouldn't work as planned. He insisted on the work. Price was settled and job performed.
He picked up the gun, used it one weekend and brought it back. Said to put it on the consignment rack.
It sat on the rack for 2 years. Many looked, laughed and walked on.
I call make an off based on worth of a GOOD 870 minus cost of new barrel.
He accepted.
Taught sister operations and loaded 2 1/2" 6s.
3 days later, drunk shows up. I can't say 100% for sure that the door opening and a 12ga barrel being between his eyes sobered him up and changed his mind, BUT he left post haste, needed a change of underwear and never returned.
- Status