Can Browning's Masterpiece Be Surpassed?

Status
Not open for further replies.
ACIinventor

ACIinventor

Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2021
Messages
29
Location
Murfreesboro, TN
upload_2021-9-16_11-34-59.jpeg

Currently, my EDC is .45acp in a 1911. I love my 1911, Smith & Wesson did a great job. However, in the future my EDC will be 10mm in my NEW handgun. Which brand of handgun you might ask? I haven't figured out what the name of my firearms manufacturing business will be or the model name yet. If you have any ideas for a name, let me know.
Here's what my NEW handgun will be:
polymer frame
scandium slide
compact
10mm or any other high pressure cartridge (.45super, .357sig, 9mm major, etc.)
novel recoil and gas operating system
striker fired
unusually low bore axis
proprietary trigger
fully adjustable pistol grip; replaceable side, backstrap panels and more
optics ready and more
modular dust cover

My NEW handgun will bring together two main trends in the firearm industry, lightweight materials and more powerful cartridges, into an easily carried EDC platform anyone can shoot. Better mitigation of recoil is the key to this advancement. By changing the manner in which recoil is transmitted to the shooter's hand, this becomes possible.

Browning's recoil operating system, an undeniable masterpiece, can be and should be surpassed. It has served us all very well for over a 100 years. But I believe Browning is disappointed that nobody has yet moved the state of the art beyond his work. I'm prepared to take on that considerable challenge!
 
is the browning hi-power an improvement over the 1911? seems like a pretty advanced weapon for it's time. but i only know it from reading about it, never had one in my hands.
 
It's the scandium slide idea that scares me. I think you'd need a recoil spring stout enough to require a winch to keep the slide velocity sub-sonic; particularly given a 10mm caliber.
 
Rule3 said:
Sounds like a GLOCK!:rofl:
Click to expand...
Not entirely true. Glocks use a modified version of Browning's recoil operating system. If we want better shooting handguns in powerful chamberings, a new operating system is needed. The Browning recoil operating system has it's limits. The new operating system I'm proposing addresses those limitations. Just imagine a lightweight 10mm handgun that shoots like a 9mm. Or a lightweight 9mm handgun that shoots like a .22lr.

Devonai said:
Uh, what? Companies like H&K have been thumbing their noses at the Browning recoil operating system for decades.
Click to expand...
I agree. One of my favorite HKs was the P7M8. Unfortunately, I was forced to sell it for food because of some patent thieves and their criminal law enforcement friends in Rutherford County, TN. The P7M8 used a gas retarded blowback operating system. An outstanding design! But when compared to the number of manufacturers that use a version of the Browning recoil operating system, innovative systems from HK barely make a dent in the market. Now, even HK uses the Browning operating system in it's handguns. I love my HK VP9!

minutemen1776 said:
Only the most hardcore and deluded 1911 devotees could believe no one has moved the needle on "state of the art" in 110 years.
Click to expand...
In terms of operating systems that are used prolifically across the industry, no. Browning's recoil operating system pretty much reigns supreme. There are a few handguns with blowback systems. There are fewer with gas systems. The majority of semi-automatic handguns are made using a version of the Browning system. Advances in materials science have provided us with lightweight, durable, and strong polymers. Advanced bullet technologies have given us better performing, more capable cartridges. Its time for the handgun operating system to advance.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
ACIinventor said:
The Browning recoil operating system has it's limits. The new operating system I'm proposing addresses those limitations. Just imagine a lightweight 10mm handgun that shoots like a 9mm. Or a lightweight 9mm handgun that shoots like a .22lr.
Click to expand...
As long as it isn't a rotating barrel/bolt system. These keep being rediscovered every few years...obviously by folks who don't understand the downside of the systems when trying to shoot quickly.

My favorite, non-Browning system, is the Delayed Roller system used in the H&K P9S...self-regulating as to power or bullet weight, easy to retract the slide, and very accurate
 
thunderbyrd said:
is the browning hi-power an improvement over the 1911? seems like a pretty advanced weapon for it's time. but i only know it from reading about it, never had one in my hands.
Click to expand...
It was likely the last handgun design Browning worked on before his death. We can see some of the incremental improvements in the Browning hi-power. The external extractor obviously comes to my mind. But the operating system of the hi-power remained basically the same. There really wasn't a need for another operating system at that time. The Browning system was more than capable of handling the predominant cartridges of the day. And continued to do so for many years. I've never had a hi-power either but I've studied it quite often. Reading history, particularly regarding the World Wars, many soldiers praised the hi-power.
 
Old_Grouch said:
It's the scandium slide idea that scares me. I think you'd need a recoil spring stout enough to require a winch to keep the slide velocity sub-sonic; particularly given a 10mm caliber.
Click to expand...
You've hit the nail on the head! I can't go into specifics but you're going in the right direction. Getting that scandium slide to work safely is going to be a challenge. I have some solutions that should manage that velocity issue. A change in one area has an impact in the whole system. The scandium slide is a weight reduction effort, no doubt. That weight loss will create problems if not dealt with. I can make it happen.
 
ACIinventor said:
You've hit the nail on the head! I can't go into specifics but you're going in the right direction. Getting that scandium slide to work safely is going to be a challenge. I have some solutions that should manage that velocity issue. A change in one area has an impact in the whole system. The scandium slide is a weight reduction effort, no doubt. That weight loss will create problems if not dealt with. I can make it happen.
Click to expand...

Titanium and DiLithium Crystals
 
ACIinventor said:
View attachment 1025906

Currently, my EDC is .45acp in a 1911. I love my 1911, Smith & Wesson did a great job. However, in the future my EDC will be 10mm in my NEW handgun. Which brand of handgun you might ask? I haven't figured out what the name of my firearms manufacturing business will be or the model name yet. If you have any ideas for a name, let me know.
Here's what my NEW handgun will be:
polymer frame
scandium slide
compact
10mm or any other high pressure cartridge (.45super, .357sig, 9mm major, etc.)
novel recoil and gas operating system
striker fired
unusually low bore axis
proprietary trigger
fully adjustable pistol grip; replaceable side, backstrap panels and more
optics ready and more
modular dust cover

My NEW handgun will bring together two main trends in the firearm industry, lightweight materials and more powerful cartridges, into an easily carried EDC platform anyone can shoot. Better mitigation of recoil is the key to this advancement. By changing the manner in which recoil is transmitted to the shooter's hand, this becomes possible.

Browning's recoil operating system, an undeniable masterpiece, can be and should be surpassed. It has served us all very well for over a 100 years. But I believe Browning is disappointed that nobody has yet moved the state of the art beyond his work. I'm prepared to take on that considerable challenge!
Click to expand...


I'm all in for those innovating in the firearms industry. Good Luck!
 
ACIinventor said:
It was likely the last handgun design Browning worked on before his death. We can see some of the incremental improvements in the Browning hi-power. The external extractor obviously comes to my mind. But the operating system of the hi-power remained basically the same. There really wasn't a need for another operating system at that time. The Browning system was more than capable of handling the predominant cartridges of the day. And continued to do so for many years. I've never had a hi-power either but I've studied it quite often. Reading history, particularly regarding the World Wars, many soldiers praised the hi-power.
Click to expand...

Sorry but you are light on the facts here. The Browning High Power when it was adopted as the P35 had an internal extractor. Take a look at my avatar and the pic below. That is the patent for the last gun JMB designed. It is not the gun we call the Browning High/Hi Power. Saive is the true designer of the BHP IMHO. He was the one who incorporated aspects of the 1911 design after the patients expired and JMB was in the ground. The things that the BHP shares with the 1911 are not present in this design. One of the biggest myths about the BHP is that it was JMBs attempt to improve upon the 1911.

What people do not understand is that JMB was a contract employee who worked for Colt, FN and others. In terms of the 1911 and the BHP he was a contract designer. He read the proposed contract and designed a pistol to meet the requirements. It was not personal. He was not painting a self portrait. If the US Govt said the 1911 had to have pink grips made of unicorn horns it would have been incorporated into the design. In terms of the BHP JMB passed on the project. He did not think a combat side arm need more than 8 rounds. Saive designed the magazine which originally held 16 rounds. They brought it to him and convinced him to work on the project.

He then took the French contract spec and built the gun below. The French never adopted the gun. Saive refined the design and the Belgians adopted it in 1935. It is one of the most prolific designs in history. There are millions of these guns all over the world. In the US we think the 1911 is widely used. It is not compared to the BHP which was used by people all over the world.

sweCubR.jpg

Rule3 said:
Sounds like a GLOCK!:rofl:
Click to expand...

ACIinventor said:
Not entirely true. Glocks use a modified version of Browning's recoil operating system. If we want better shooting handguns in powerful chamberings, a new operating system is needed. The Browning recoil operating system has it's limits. The new operating system I'm proposing addresses those limitations. Just imagine a lightweight 10mm handgun that shoots like a 9mm. Or a lightweight 9mm handgun that shoots like a .22lr.
Click to expand...

The Glock and the 1911 have more in common then most people understand IMHO.
 
Last edited:
9mmepiphany said:
As long as it isn't a rotating barrel/bolt system. These keep being rediscovered every few years...obviously by folks who don't understand the downside of the systems when trying to shoot quickly.

My favorite, non-Browning system, is the Delayed Roller system used in the H&K P9S...self-regulating as to power or bullet weight, easy to retract the slide, and very accurate
Click to expand...
I think the HK P9S also has a stamped slide, very innovative. What slows down a rotating barrel?

tactikel said:
“Titanium and dilithium crystals”
Dammit Jim, I’m a gunsmith not a miracle worker!
Click to expand...
I'm guessing that's a Star Trek reference?

Rule3 said:
Titanium and DiLithium Crystals
Click to expand...
I'm guessing that's a Star Trek reference?

SharpDog said:
I'm all in for those innovating in the firearms industry. Good Luck!
Click to expand...
Thanks!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
WVsig said:
Sorry but you are light on the facts here. The Browning High Power when it was adopted as the P35 had an internal extractor. Take a look at my avatar and the pic below. That is the patent for the last gun JMB designed. It is not the gun we call the Browning High/Hi Power. Saive is the true designer of the BHP IMHO. He was the one who incorporated aspects of the 1911 design after the patients expired and JMB was in the ground. The things that the BHP shares with the 1911 are not present in this design. One of the biggest myths about the BHP is that it was JMBs attempt to improve upon the 1911.

What people do not understand is that JMB was a contract employee who worked for Colt, FN and others. In terms of the 1911 and the BHP he was a contract designer. He read the proposed contract and designed a pistol to meet the requirements. It was not personal. He was not painting a self portrait. If the US Govt said the 1911 had to have pink grips made of unicorn horns it would have been incorporated into the design. In terms of the BHP JMB passed on the project. He did not think a combat side arm need more than 8 rounds. Saive designed the magazine which originally held 16 rounds. They brought it to him and convinced him to work on the project.

He then took the French contract spec and built the gun below. The French never adopted the gun. Saive refined the design and the Belgians adopted it in 1935. It is one of the most prolific designs in history. There are millions of these guns all over the world. In the US we think the 1911 is widely used. It is not compared to the BHP which was used by people all over the world.

View attachment 1025963





The Glock and the 1911 have more in common then most people understand IMHO.
Click to expand...
Good High Power information. I've heard there is controversy over Browning's and Saive's work on the High Power. The 9mm cartridge is probably what drove acceptance of the High Power around the world. The American .45acp cartridge was basically only popular here in the US. The BHP and 1911 still share the same operating system.

Jim Watson said:
When will you start bending metal?
Click to expand...
That's a great question. Probably immediately after the FBI investigation into intellectual property theft and extortion by the Rutherford County, TN government is complete. Inventors don't like to be robbed, so I became a FBI informant. Watch the news. Justice is coming to Tennessee!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
That will be interesting, no doubt. Perhaps it will explain how a county government can or would steal firearms designs.

You may have a handle on all this but my thoughts are

polymer frame
Unless you plan 3D printing, it would be easier to start with a metal receiver. The Colt All American 2000 don't get no respect but the first run was with aluminum receivers instead of the eventual plastic. Those I saw were beautifully finished and smooth in operation.

scandium slide
My Nelson .22 conversion has an aluminum slide that does just fine BUT it has cunningly placed steel inserts in the hard wear areas. Scandium alloy is stronger as indicated for a centerfire but it will likely need some help in the high stress and wear areas. Note: SVI has made guns with titanium slides.

compact
How compact? Since you are familiar with 1911, are you looking at Commander or OACP size?

10mm or any other high pressure cartridge (.45super, .357sig, 9mm major, etc.)
OK, go big, we already have dwarf 9mms and more on the way.

novel recoil and gas operating system
Combined gas and recoil? It will have to be something special to handle heavy loads with a light slide.

striker fired
Nearly universal in new designs

unusually low bore axis
Versus what? Comparable to a Laugo Alien?

proprietary trigger
It better be. There are so many scandals about non-drop safe guns, you don't need to be mixed up in that.

fully adjustable pistol grip; replaceable side, backstrap panels and more
optics ready and more
All salable features but might should be left to a later prototype or even Gen 2

modular dust cover
A what? Hard to imagine a new gun without a rail but what modules would you provide? Built in light or laser? Gen 3.

Teacher says, compare and contrast with Glock 29. It appears to be what you describe operationally, just in a conventional design by a big company.
 
Last edited:
ACIinventor said:
I think the HK P9S also has a stamped slide, very innovative. What slows down a rotating barrel?
Click to expand...
In the late 90s (Maybe very early 2000s) I had a Micro Desert Eagle .380. The blowback delay was via angled ports in the chamber area that directed gas forward against the slide. It seems this would be effective with a rotating barrel as the barrel can't rotate until the slide starts to move and that is delayed by the gasses. The amount of delay/pressure threshold I assume is determined by the size of the ports.
 
thunderbyrd said:
is the browning hi-power an improvement over the 1911? seems like a pretty advanced weapon for it's time. but i only know it from reading about it, never had one in my hands.
Click to expand...

It is. In point of fact when designing it Browning had to work around all the patents he sold to Colt in order to prevent infringement. That is why the HiPower is actually the SUPERIOR design and the heir apparent to the aged 1911.

Since then a dozen other innovations to handguns have arrived thru other designers and gun makers. The SIG Barrel lockup in the slide, Kahr's feeding patents, the proven reliabliity of polymer handgrips, ad infinitum. Browning did a great job then but even the Canadians are finally mothballing their HiPowers - and the results will not be some directly lineated design to centuries old practices.

If you want the leading edge in handgun design you now consider the separately serial numbered Fire Control Unit, and the fact that Glock is deliberately ignoring it at their peril seems to be the best indication of how effective it really is. They apparently can't get around the design patents - same ground Browning was on. For a truly innovative company who came up with a modern gamechanger they are stagnating.

The 1911 is hardly a modern design now and the last to be issued went to the Marines who then had to force the maker to replace them because they couldn't keep a cerakote job on the metal. 1911's are the bag analog phone of guns - great service and they worked well - but no, there are far superior designs with fleet use of more than a few years already doing a better overall job.
 
ACIinventor said:
I think the HK P9S also has a stamped slide, very innovative. What slows down a rotating barrel?
Click to expand...
...and a stamped frame covered in polymer.

Nothing slows down a rotating barrel other than friction...that isn't the issue. The issue is that a rotating barrel is inherently slower for followup shots due to the vectors of how it mitigates recoil
 
I like Jeff Cooper's description of the P9S, all stamped sheet metal and plastic, then they put the money they saved back into an elaborate bolt head and barrel extension. It might be a good example of how light a slide can be if it is not critical to timing the operation.

There are roller actions of more conventional milled construction out there, Korriphila and Korth, both very expensive.

Our old buddy Clark said the roller CZ52 was not as strong as the Browning pattern Tokarev.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Intox
  • Locked
Thinking of buying a Glock
2 3
Replies
50
Views
2K
Havok7416
Havok7416
200Apples
  • Locked
Browning 1911-.22 Comes Home This Week
Replies
18
Views
2K
200Apples
200Apples
MTMilitiaman
  • Locked
Most controllable .45 ACP platform?
2 3
Replies
52
Views
4K
valor1
valor1
MrChicken
  • Locked
Range report Browning 1911-380, S&W 380EZ and Glock19
Replies
6
Views
976
MrChicken
MrChicken
T
  • Locked
John Moses Browning entry on Wikipedia... sub atomic weasel launcher?!!
2 3
Replies
69
Views
4K
revjen45
R
Back
Top