How to ship an AR upper & lower (Separately) legally?

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TacticalSpeed

TacticalSpeed

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My new 7" barrel FM9 upper is having ejection issues. Foxtrot Mike's wants me to ship them both the upper & lower (Only the upper is FM) to them, broken down, but in the same box

They instructed me to ship them via USPS. Isn't that illegal? I am not an FFL.


What is the legal & insured way, if there is one, to ship both the lower (complete) and upper (also complete) to them? I am in PA & they are in ID.
 
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The lower by itself can ship USPS legally as a rifle, not a pistol.

Perhaps putting a short barrel in the same box makes it a pistol, which would be illegal for you to ship?
 
Speedo66 said:
The lower by itself can ship USPS legally as a rifle, not a pistol.

Perhaps putting a short barrel in the same box makes it a pistol, which would be illegal for you to ship?
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The lower & upper will be shipped separately. So there would be no barrel in the box w/the lower.
Should I also remove the pistol brace from the lower regardless?
 
I would leave the lower as-is. Having you mail in the lower and upper likely means they are going to try diagnosing the problem as you have it setup. Your lower on their upper, to see what the issue is. Mail them separately as requested.

Here are the USPS rules for shipping. Emphasis added for where most applicable.

[paste:font size="3"] 432.3 431.2, unloaded rifles and shotguns are mailable. Mailers must comply with the rules and regulations under 27 CFR, Part 478, as well as state and local laws. The mailer may be required by the USPS to establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the rifle or shotgun is unloaded and not ineligible for mailing. The following conditions also apply:

  1. Subject to state, territory, or district regulations, rifles and shotguns may be mailed without restriction when intended for delivery within the same state of mailing. These items must:
    1. Bear a “Return Service Requested” endorsement.
    2. Be mailed using a class of mail, product, or Extra Service that provides tracking and signature capture at delivery.
  2. A rifle or shotgun owned by a non-FFL may be mailed outside the owner‘s state of residence by the owner to himself or herself, in care of another person in the other state where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. These mailpieces must:
    1. Be addressed to the owner.
    2. Include the “in the care of” endorsement immediately preceding the name of the applicable temporary custodian.
    3. Be opened by the rifle or shotgun owner only.
    4. Be mailed using a class of mail, product, or Extra Service that provides tracking and signature capture at delivery.
  3. Mailing of rifles and shotguns between licensed FFL dealers, manufacturers, or importers are not restricted. The Postal Service recommends that these items be mailed using a class of mail, product, or Extra Service that provides tracking and signature capture at delivery.
  4. Rifles and shotguns may be mailed by a non-FFL owner domestically to a FFL dealer, manufacturer, or importer in any state. These items must be mailed using a class of mail, product, or Extra Service that provides tracking and signature capture at delivery.
  5. 432.3a, licensed curio and relic collectors may mail firearms meeting the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 domestically to licensed FFL curio and relic collectors in any state. These items must be mailed using a class of mail, product, or Extra Service that provides tracking and signature capture at delivery.
  6. 431.4 which are certified by the curator of a municipal, state, or federal museum, which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest, may be accepted for mailing without restriction when mailed between governmental museums.
  7. 431.6) that do not fall within the definition of firearms under 431.1a are mailable. A shipment containing an air gun with a muzzle velocity of 400 or more feet per second (fps) must include an adult signature service under DMM 503.8. Mailers must additionally comply with all applicable state and local regulations.
You are shipping a firearm to a licensed manufacturer for repair. This is legal when done correctly. I have done it a few times sending handguns back for repair. It takes a bit longer to get through the process so make sure you aren't rushing yourself to get it done on a lunch break from work or something. While it is an AR pistol, it may not fall under the criteria of "Handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person"

https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c4_009.htm
 
TacticalSpeed said:
The lower & upper will be shipped separately. So there would be no barrel in the box w/the lower.
Should I also remove the pistol brace from the lower regardless?
Click to expand...
Probably not a bad idea.

As mentioned above, ship it with the upper, which is not a firearm.
 
Speedo66 said:
The lower by itself can ship USPS legally as a rifle, not a pistol...
Click to expand...

No! That is not correct.

One must carefully read the USPS regulations, and read them completely.

A non-FFL may lawfully ship only a rifle or shotgun by USPS. "Rifle" and "shotgun" are defined at 431.4 of the postal regulations (USPS Publication 52, Part 4, Section 43):
A rifle is a shoulder weapon having a barrel that is 16 inches or more in length. A shotgun is a shoulder weapon having a barrel that is 18 inches or more in length. Rifles and shotguns have an overall length of 26 inches or greater and cannot be concealed on a person.
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So a receiver alone is neither a rifle nor a shotgun.

  1. First, let's look at what is mailable.
    • Under 432.3:
      Except under 431.2, unloaded rifles and shotguns are mailable. Mailers must comply with the rules and regulations under 27 CFR, Part 478, as well as state and local laws. The mailer may be required by the USPS to establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the rifle or shotgun is unloaded and not ineligible for mailing. The following conditions also apply:...
      Click to expand...

      431.2 refers to short barrel rifles and shotguns which are not mailable.

    • But what is a rifle and what is a shotgun for the purpose of 432.2? "Rifle" and "shotgun" are defined at 431.4:
      A rifle is a shoulder weapon having a barrel that is 16 inches or more in length. A shotgun is a shoulder weapon having a barrel that is 18 inches or more in length. Rifles and shotguns have an overall length of 26 inches or greater and cannot be concealed on a person.
      Click to expand...

    • So a bare frame or stripped receive can not be a rifle or a shotgun. A bare frame or stripped receiver doesn't have a barrel, nor is its overall length 26 inches or longer.

    • Therefore a bare frame or a stripped lower receiver can not be a rifle or shotgun mailable under 432.2.

  2. Then what is not mailable.
    • Under 432.2 (emphasis added):
      Handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable unless mailed between the parties listed in this section,...
      Click to expand...

      The persons referred to who under the regulation may mail a handgun or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person do not include an ordinary, private citizen.

    • A bare frame or stripped lower receiver is not a handgun as defined at 431.2, nor is it a rifle or shotgun defined at 431.4, but is it a "firearm capable of being concealed on the person"?
      • "Firearm" is defined at 431.1 (emphasis added):
        ...a. Firearm means any device, including a starter gun, which will, or is designed to, or may readily be converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or any destructive device; but the term shall not include antique firearms (except antique firearms meeting the description of a handgun or of a firearm capable of being concealed on a person).

        b. Firearm frame or receiver is the part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel....
        Click to expand...

      • So a stripped lower receiver, as the part of the firearm providing the housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, is, all by itself, a firearm.

      • Also, physically a stripped lower receiver is small enough to be concealed upon the person.

      • With regard to concealability the regulations provide, at 431.2.b (emphasis added):
        b. Other firearms capable of being concealed on the person include, but are not limited to, short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles.
        Click to expand...

        A stripped lower receiver will be smaller than at least most short barrel rifles or shotguns and so would be at least as concealable.

      • Furthermore, a stripped lower receiver is not, by itself, a rifle. First, it doesn't fit the regulation's definition of a rifle (432.4), but also, it may be used to construct, whether legally or not, a handgun or a short barrel rifle. Therefore, a stripped lower receiver is not necessarily a rifle part.

    • Therefore, a stripped lower receiver is, for the purpose of the USPS regulations and the restrictions on mailing firearms which are handguns or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person.

  3. Therefore a stripped lower receiver is not mailable under USPS regulations by a non-licensee.

Note that shipping a firearm in violation of USPS Regulations is a federal crime. See 18 USC 1715 (emphasis added):
Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable and shall not be deposited in or carried by the mails or delivered by any officer or employee of the Postal Service. Such articles may be conveyed in the mails, under such regulations as the Postal Service shall prescribe, for use in connection with their official duty, to officers of the Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, Marine Corps, or Organized Reserve Corps; to officers of the National Guard or Militia of a State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District; to officers of the United States or of a State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District whose official duty is to serve warrants of arrest or commitments; to employees of the Postal Service; to officers and employees of enforcement agencies of the United States; and to watchmen engaged in guarding the property of the United States, a State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District. Such articles also may be conveyed in the mails to manufacturers of firearms or bona fide dealers therein in customary trade shipments, including such articles for repairs or replacement of parts, from one to the other, under such regulations as the Postal Service shall prescribe.

Whoever knowingly deposits for mailing or delivery, or knowingly causes to be delivered by mail according to the direction thereon, or at any place to which it is directed to be delivered by the person to whom it is addressed, any pistol, revolver, or firearm declared nonmailable by this section, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.
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When the Ruger LCP recall was going on, returns for warranty work were shipped UPS IIRC. And shipped back the same direct to me. If you can ship a pistol for warranty work, being an AR pistol with barrel isn't different. Pistol.

USPS does ship Pistols, the Postmasters aren't always as knowledgeable or cooperative. Ask a postmaster as they are the ones with discretion to interpret.
 
I told FM that I am not playing the "is it legal" game with USPS & using Fedex or UPS.

Now, can I put the upper & complete lower in the same box with UPS or Fedex or should I ship each separately?
 
TacticalSpeed said:
I told FM that I am not playing the "is it legal" game with USPS & using Fedex or UPS.

Now, can I put the upper & complete lower in the same box with UPS or Fedex or should I ship each separately?
Click to expand...
The upper is not regulated and has nothing to do with the legality of a firearm shipment.
FedEx recently changed their service policies and no longer allow firearm shipments except those from FFL's who are registered with them.

That leaves UPS as your only option.
UPS https://www.ups.com/us/en/help-cent...nts/firearms.page?srch_pos=3&srch_phr=handgun
How to Ship Firearms or Ammunition
Special Procedures for Shipping Firearms
UPS accepts packages containing firearms (as defined by Title 18, Chapter 44, and Title 26, Chapter 53 of the United States Code) for transportation only (a) between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed collectors (as defined in Title 18, Chapter 44 of the United States Code), and government agencies and (b) where not otherwise prohibited by federal, state or local law (i) from an individual to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector; and (ii) from a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to an individual.

The shipper must comply with and must ensure that each shipment containing firearms complies with all federal, state and local laws applicable to the shipper, recipient, and package, including, without limitation, age restrictions.

Use These UPS Services for Your Firearm Shipment
Handguns, as defined by 18 U.S.C. § 921, will be accepted for transportation only via UPS Next Day Air Services, specifically, UPS Next Day Air® Early, UPS Next Day Air®, and UPS Next Day Air Saver®. (Note: UPS Express Critical™ Service is not available for firearms).

UPS accepts firearm parts for shipment, provided the part is not a "firearm" as defined under federal law; the contents of the package cannot be assembled to form a firearm; and the package otherwise complies with federal, state, and local law. (Note: Receivers or frames of a firearm and firearm mufflers/silencers (also referred to as suppressors) are considered "firearms" and are accepted for transportation only if shipped in accordance with UPS's requirements for shipping firearms.)

UPS does not accept automatic weapons, including machine guns, for shipment. Firearms (including handguns) and firearm parts are not accepted for shipment internationally. UPS Returns® Services are not available for packages containing firearms.

Packing and Labeling Requirements for Firearms
All firearms must be shipped in new corrugated packaging which meets the UPS Single Wall Box Strength Guidelines.

All firearms are to be packaged in accordance with UPS Packaging Guideline Specifications. Ammunition must be shipped separately from packages that contain firearms (including handguns).

Packages containing handguns must be separated from other packages tendered to UPS for delivery.

The shipper must use Delivery Confirmation Adult Signature Required and Direct Delivery Only services for each package containing a firearm, including a handgun or a firearm suppressor, and affix a UPS label requesting an adult signature upon delivery.

The labeling and outer box markings on all firearms shipments should not identify the contents as containing a firearm. Labeling, including the shipper's and consignee's abbreviated names on the shipping label or air shipping document, must be non-descriptive.

Getting Your Firearm Shipment to UPS
Firearms (including handguns) may be shipped only through a UPS Scheduled Pickup Account using various UPS pickup services, or through a UPS Customer Center (counters at UPS operational facilities). Note: Firearms (including handguns) are not accepted for shipment via UPS Drop Boxes or UPS On-Call Pickup®, and may not be tendered to or dropped off at locations of The UPS Store®, any third party retailer, or any UPS Access Point™ location.

When you are shipping a package that contains a handgun, you must verbally notify the UPS driver or UPS Customer Center clerk.

See the UPS Tariff/Terms and Conditions of Service - United States and the UPS Rate and Service Guide in effect at the time of shipping ("UPS Terms") for information regarding firearm and ammunition shipments.
Click to expand...
 
Tirod said:
When the Ruger LCP recall was going on, returns for warranty work were shipped UPS IIRC. And shipped back the same direct to me. If you can ship a pistol for warranty work, being an AR pistol with barrel isn't different. Pistol.

USPS does ship Pistols, the Postmasters aren't always as knowledgeable or cooperative. Ask a postmaster as they are the ones with discretion to interpret.
Click to expand...
Please stop!
If the OP follows your advice he commits a federal crime.
Correct information has been posted literally hundreds of times in this subforum for dozens of years. Frank is undoubtably having a stroke right now because once a week someone gives bad advice.
1. USPS regulations on mailing firearms statrts here:https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub5...XP3C8S9V*MTYzMzQ2OTMxOS4zLjEuMTYzMzQ2OTMzMS4w
2. Note 433 Legal Opinions on Mailing Firearms says "Postmasters are not authorized to give opinions on the legality of any shipment of firearms"

If only there was a sticky on shipping firearm in the Legal subforum.:(
 
Tirod said:
When the Ruger LCP recall was going on, returns for warranty work were shipped UPS IIRC. And shipped back the same direct to me. If you can ship a pistol for warranty work, being an AR pistol with barrel isn't different. Pistol.

USPS does ship Pistols, the Postmasters aren't always as knowledgeable or cooperative. Ask a postmaster as they are the ones with discretion to interpret.
Click to expand...

What awful, useless information. You obviously haven’t been following the discussion, nor did you read post 7.

And yes, a pistol was shipped by an FFL directly to you; but it was shipped UPS, not USPS.

And a pistol may be shipped USPS, BUT ONLY FFL to FFL.

And the local Postmaster doesn’t decide whether to prosecute you. That will be up to the U. S. Attorney.
 
I would ask any local FFLs you deal with if they do FFL to FFL shipping for handguns. My local range does and since their cost is much less than mine, the overall cost they quoted was better than I could do.
 
P Flados said:
I would ask any local FFLs you deal with if they do FFL to FFL shipping for handguns. My local range does...
Click to expand...

I've covered this with a local FFL who charges $50 for handguns & $70 for long guns, they box / wrap do it all. And I THINK they use USPS but alas, I don't know, and, don't care (it's THEIR FFL license).

If it is in fact a warranty claim, even if your COMPLETED BOTTOM PORTION of the firearm is partially creating the problem, just exactly why isn't FT Mike issuing a claim ticket/ shipping label?
At a minimum it would provide clarity on 2 sides 1) WHO can be the shipping carrier i.e. FedEx, UPS; as FT Mike will provide the ticket/label and 2) SHOULD be 100% covered, but alternatively MAY be lesser $ as they most likely have an account with various shippers.
 
DoubleMag said:
I've covered this with a local FFL who charges $50 for handguns & $70 for long guns, they box / wrap do it all. And I THINK they use USPS but alas, I don't know, and, don't care (it's THEIR FFL license).

If it is in fact a warranty claim, even if your COMPLETED BOTTOM PORTION of the firearm is partially creating the problem, just exactly why isn't FT Mike issuing a claim ticket/ shipping label?
At a minimum it would provide clarity on 2 sides 1) WHO can be the shipping carrier i.e. FedEx, UPS; as FT Mike will provide the ticket/label and 2) SHOULD be 100% covered, but alternatively MAY be lesser $ as they most likely have an account with various shippers.
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I agree on them sending me a label, but they did agree to cover the shipping cost. We'll see if they actually do.
 
Well, that's better then I imagined. I mean, reading my post again it was a bit vague, my meaning was, best scenario payed for of course, but at WORST scenario they would provide a label that you would pay for, which would still be less $ perhaps...

Hopefully they can get it all tuned in for you, and back in a reasonable time like just;) a few weeks.
 
DoubleMag said:
Well, that's better then I imagined. I mean, reading my post again it was a bit vague, my meaning was, best scenario payed for of course, but at WORST scenario they would provide a label that you would pay for, which would still be less $ perhaps...

Hopefully they can get it all tuned in for you, and back in a reasonable time like just;) a few weeks.
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Thanks! Went out FedEx today. Supposed to be delivered on the 14th. So maybe I'll have it back by Thanksgiving & MAYBE it'll work right LOL.

I have a feeling they will either tell me nothing wrong or they will say their buffer magically cured all & I need to buy one. I do & nothing is fixed when I shoot it again. Then I'd request they buy the thing back & buy from another manufacturer.
 
TacticalSpeed said:
I have a feeling they will either tell me nothing wrong or they will say their buffer magically cured all & I need to buy one. I do & nothing is fixed when I shoot it again. Then I'd request they buy the thing back & buy from another manufacturer.
Click to expand...
Once that happens you should buy a pistol with a carbine length gas system, which generally means a 10-11" barrel. I have yet to see a pistol length gassed AR that didn't have ejection issues.
 
bearcreek said:
Once that happens you should buy a pistol with a carbine length gas system, which generally means a 10-11" barrel. I have yet to see a pistol length gassed AR that didn't have ejection issues.
Click to expand...
Still same buffer & spring & bolt. I have a PSA 10.5" 9mm upper that runs fine. Same exact buffer & spring in that & this FM unit.

FM shipped it back to me. They claim they had an ejection issue so replaced the bolt & ran fine after. However, they did not test it with my lower so, in other words, not an accurate assessment of the issue. They said they didn't have any Endomags to test on mine. Then why would you not ask me to send a mag along? Instead, they specifically said don't send mags.

Hopefully, it's fine when I get it back, but I have my doubts. If still FTF & FTE more rounds than not, I'm asking them to buy it back.
 
TacticalSpeed said:
Still same buffer & spring & bolt. I have a PSA 10.5" 9mm upper that runs fine. Same exact buffer & spring in that & this FM unit.
Click to expand...
That's probably your issue. You can't use the same exact buffer and spring with a pistol length gas system as you do with a carbine length and expect it to work well.
 
bearcreek said:
That's probably your issue. You can't use the same exact buffer and spring with a pistol length gas system as you do with a carbine length and expect it to work well.
Click to expand...
No, this is the KAw 9mm buffer & spring combo that I use. This is what it's made for. Both of my setups run a carbine buffer tube
 
Well, scratch all that. I'd never heard of that brand and assumed we were talking about a regular AR in a rifle caliber. Just looked them up and I see we're talking about a 9mm. I've no experience with those, so ignore my last two posts. Good luck!
 
Finally got it back to the range after getting it back, with a new bolt, from FM. Guess what...SAME PROBLEMS ALL OVER AGAIN!!!!

At this point, I hope they will buy it back from me & I'll buy another upper from a different company.
 
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