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jarhead127
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Finally ran down a guy 25 mi north of here. Works out of his house, but lic and highly recommended. I can't believe there's none in Amish country, but the society is kind of private, and I get that.
Is gunsmithing a lost art?
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herrwalther
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Very few gunsmiths around these days that have the know how and equipment to make obsolete parts. You might be better off making friends with folks who work in a machine shop. Or pitch a project to some community college students taking the course. A lot of places like Numrich are out of stock on pretty much every part right now, so buying an OEM replacement is going to be a needle in haystack moment.
https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/1037380
Reloadron
Contributing Member
Well sitting here in the Cleveland, Ohio suburbs. The last really good smith I knew passed away about 25 years ago. A good smith is hard to find and as the older ones pass away none of the young are taking up the trade. Not around here anyway. I am not talking about "I went to an armorer school" but guts who can mill and drill or thread a barrel blank. Sadly I have seen some poor guns butchered.
Ron
George Dickel
Member
The equipment needed to be a full service gunsmith shop is quite expensive. Quality lathes large enough to turn and thread a barrel and a milling machine are prohibitively expensive. A friend is a gunsmith and he was showing me his tools one day that he has hundreds and hundreds of dollars invested in. If you want quality work it requires quality equipment.
Telekinesis
Member
Most places that call themselves gunsmiths are really armorers who replace parts, rather than gunsmiths who create parts.
Most modern guns are designed to be maintained at the armorer level which is usually easier and cheaper for everyone involved. Instead of having to figure out what’s wrong and then tweak a part until it behaves, with more modern designs you just have to identify the part with the issue and swap it for a new one. Unfortunately that means there’s less need for real gunsmiths.
I’ve noticed a decline in both the number and quality of gunsmiths locally, so much that I’ve started learning how to do my own gunsmithing.
In the future, I think there will be even less call for someone who is a “general gunsmith” and demand will be more for high quality specialty work (like guns for specific competitions). You’ll have a small number of very good, but very narrow focus gunsmiths who have long backlogs. And it’ll be hard for new people to enter the market because they’ll need to find a way to pay the bills while they build up the knowledge, experience, and more importantly, the reputation, to be seen as a capable alternative to the well known smiths.
Or you can buy a lathe and mill (or find a friend with a lathe and a mill) and make it yourself. It’s a fun hobby and it’s pretty useful to be able to just throw some metal on the machine and make whatever you need.
Most modern guns are designed to be maintained at the armorer level which is usually easier and cheaper for everyone involved. Instead of having to figure out what’s wrong and then tweak a part until it behaves, with more modern designs you just have to identify the part with the issue and swap it for a new one. Unfortunately that means there’s less need for real gunsmiths.
I’ve noticed a decline in both the number and quality of gunsmiths locally, so much that I’ve started learning how to do my own gunsmithing.
In the future, I think there will be even less call for someone who is a “general gunsmith” and demand will be more for high quality specialty work (like guns for specific competitions). You’ll have a small number of very good, but very narrow focus gunsmiths who have long backlogs. And it’ll be hard for new people to enter the market because they’ll need to find a way to pay the bills while they build up the knowledge, experience, and more importantly, the reputation, to be seen as a capable alternative to the well known smiths.
I’d recommend talking to a machinist. Taking a quick glance, it looks like a fairly easy part to make. Profiling on a lathe, then a notch on a mill. Downside is you pay the hour of machine time regardless of if you have a simple or difficult part, so you’re probably looking at $100+ for the firing pin. Most places that have the ability to make one from scratch know that few people will pay $100-$200 for a firing pin, so its easier to say they can’t do it rather than have to deal with a customer who thinks the shop is trying to take advantage of them by “charging $200 for a $15 part”.
Or you can buy a lathe and mill (or find a friend with a lathe and a mill) and make it yourself. It’s a fun hobby and it’s pretty useful to be able to just throw some metal on the machine and make whatever you need.
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jarhead127
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Well Semper Fi and thanx for your service!
Back at you bro. SFMF!
SterlingBullet
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A true gunsmith is similar to a watch/clock repairman. To be very competent to repair or restore guns, clocks or watches required a lengthy apprenticeship period. In addition, in both worlds, the vast number of different firearms, clocks and watches manufactured over the last one hundred years complicates the repair process.
In particular, old guns and clocks often require making parts that are not available. A clock/watch repairman that I used (before he passed away) would often have to cut new gears and parts from brass stock because parts could be found. Watch repairman often spend much of their time on the internet trying to find watch parts which cannot be made. As far as firearms, even some of the manufacturers are not keeping parts for guns made only ten or fifteen years ago.
Finally, the market value of many old guns, clocks and watches are not worth the cost of repairing them. In many cases, people only pay for expensive repairs on these old items for sentimental reasons.
The bottom line is that there is little money to be made in gun repairs. Consider that auto repair shops and dealerships are charging a minimum fee of $80 to $120 per hour. Most ordinary guns would not be worth the cost of repair if gunsmiths charged similar prices. It’s hard to stay in business charging $25 to clean a gun, $35 to change a spring, or $60 to cut barrel threads.
In particular, old guns and clocks often require making parts that are not available. A clock/watch repairman that I used (before he passed away) would often have to cut new gears and parts from brass stock because parts could be found. Watch repairman often spend much of their time on the internet trying to find watch parts which cannot be made. As far as firearms, even some of the manufacturers are not keeping parts for guns made only ten or fifteen years ago.
Finally, the market value of many old guns, clocks and watches are not worth the cost of repairing them. In many cases, people only pay for expensive repairs on these old items for sentimental reasons.
The bottom line is that there is little money to be made in gun repairs. Consider that auto repair shops and dealerships are charging a minimum fee of $80 to $120 per hour. Most ordinary guns would not be worth the cost of repair if gunsmiths charged similar prices. It’s hard to stay in business charging $25 to clean a gun, $35 to change a spring, or $60 to cut barrel threads.
It is cheaper to replace because they make junk now days and people don’t care about quality control.
Steel Horse Rider
Member
The only good smith we had around here closed his shop and retired when his wife passed away. He learned the trade from the US Navy in the 1970's and was tired of the plastic brigade.
It is not just gunsmiths that have disappeared. I went to a 2 year trade school to learn the Tool and Die trade in the early 1970's but that trade started disappearing in the 1990's when machine tools began to be computerized. Now those who work in the trade are generally specialized in one portion of the trade. When I last worked in the trade we were making deep draw wheels for 3 wheelers, Kubota Tractors, and grain drills. The last classmate I spoke with who was still in the trade told me he was making dies for artificial heart and kidney machines that were so small he could hold a hundred of the parts in one hand. Gun owners generally aren't willing to pay the going rate for the skill required for precision work.
It is not just gunsmiths that have disappeared. I went to a 2 year trade school to learn the Tool and Die trade in the early 1970's but that trade started disappearing in the 1990's when machine tools began to be computerized. Now those who work in the trade are generally specialized in one portion of the trade. When I last worked in the trade we were making deep draw wheels for 3 wheelers, Kubota Tractors, and grain drills. The last classmate I spoke with who was still in the trade told me he was making dies for artificial heart and kidney machines that were so small he could hold a hundred of the parts in one hand. Gun owners generally aren't willing to pay the going rate for the skill required for precision work.
I'm my case, it was cheaper to replace because the previous owner decided to fix it using "jales Chicanos" and essentially ruin it to the point of no return. My second car was another hand me down, an El Camino (1971 I think), and that one was worse than the Neon.
Good things can be damaged to the point where it's cheaper to replace than to fix. But I see your point.
DustyGmt
Member
Yeah, my father in law gave me a satisfactorily surprised smile when he commented on a shirt I was wearing, was a nice Columbia button down. I told him I paid $2 for it at the thrift shop and got it cheap because of a tear in the sleeve, which I mended.
He said he didn't think people of my generation did that and was just surprised. All this to say, I agree in that we are in a throw away and replace culture and mending things or the days of bringing something like a gun to a smith for repair are almost over.
More likely a normal wear part that needs minimal effort to replace will have the user selling it and going on the internet to complain about what a hunk of junk it is........
My family was in the watch repair business. And it was very good to them. Took time to learn. Same w smithing takes a few years but if you know your stuff money will flow like water.
CryptKeeper5
Member
Luckily I know a very good gunsmith who also happens to be a long time machinist and tool/die maker with his own machine shop. There are a LOT of gun "assemblers" and guys who can bore sight a scope or change sights, but not so many true "smiths". Take them an old S&W revolver and ask for a trigger job and you'll simply get a blank stare in most instances I fear(although I do those as well). It's akin to finding a good "old school" engine builder to work on 60's/70's era muscle cars. Luckily I also am good friends with the regional "yoda" in that area as well!
entropy
Member
Unless you are at the top of the heap in some particular niche, you are sadly right. Even in that case, you don't make as much as you'd think. The gunsmith I worked for has an archery, fishing, and gun shop, and has no time to gunsmith, which is why he hired me, and one other gunsmith, who also owned his own gunshop.
BTDT. Grew up in a family of mechanics. My uncle, who is a retired high school auto/metal shop teacher, goes down south every winter and finds old cars with good bodies, and rebuilds the engines, or occasionally puts a different one in.
earlthegoat2
Member
My dad was a tool maker and he basically taught me enough to be a journeyman level machinist by the time I graduated high school.
As has been said, tool and die has been greatly reduced as a career field. What is interesting is that I once applied for a job as a machinist at a manufacturing facility.
As most job postings go, the duties were not outlined properly and they were actually looking for a CNC machinist. I figured that out after I showed up to interview.
This facility also had a small in-house machine shop for, among other things, tool and die making, as well as repairing some of the machines that were used in the facility because parts supply had dried up on a few of them or the machines came from overseas and parts supply was a long wait.
I asked about the machine shop and who worked there and if they needed a machinist. There was one guy who worked it and he was ancient. He asked if I knew how to use a DRO. I said yes. He handed me a micrometer and asked me to set it to a certain measurement and I did. Easy, easy stuff but that was all he needed to see to know I would be able to do what was needed. I worked there for one year and made $100,000 dollars working around 55 hours a week 6 days a week. The facility was purchased by some other company after that and they gutted it out, including the machine shop. Could have still worked there but other things were more interesting after that. When you’re young you can handle that kind of workload.
I never could have made that kind of money in even three or four years gunsmithing. I really wish I could be a gunsmith but there is little money in it. On top of that, you have FFL and ATF shenanigans to deal with if you want to be completely legit. That makes it difficult to do it on the side.
As has been said, tool and die has been greatly reduced as a career field. What is interesting is that I once applied for a job as a machinist at a manufacturing facility.
As most job postings go, the duties were not outlined properly and they were actually looking for a CNC machinist. I figured that out after I showed up to interview.
This facility also had a small in-house machine shop for, among other things, tool and die making, as well as repairing some of the machines that were used in the facility because parts supply had dried up on a few of them or the machines came from overseas and parts supply was a long wait.
I asked about the machine shop and who worked there and if they needed a machinist. There was one guy who worked it and he was ancient. He asked if I knew how to use a DRO. I said yes. He handed me a micrometer and asked me to set it to a certain measurement and I did. Easy, easy stuff but that was all he needed to see to know I would be able to do what was needed. I worked there for one year and made $100,000 dollars working around 55 hours a week 6 days a week. The facility was purchased by some other company after that and they gutted it out, including the machine shop. Could have still worked there but other things were more interesting after that. When you’re young you can handle that kind of workload.
I never could have made that kind of money in even three or four years gunsmithing. I really wish I could be a gunsmith but there is little money in it. On top of that, you have FFL and ATF shenanigans to deal with if you want to be completely legit. That makes it difficult to do it on the side.
I took a pair of Red Wing boots and a pair of handmade moccasins in for new soles Monday. Cobblers are more rare than gunsmiths. But they're still out there if you look. Neither the boots or moccasins were cheap, nor are they simply throw away goods. Taken care of as I do they may very well outlive me.
My guns most definitely will. Not one is a disposable cheap POS.
I freely admit to being a throwback to earlier times.
My guns most definitely will. Not one is a disposable cheap POS.
I freely admit to being a throwback to earlier times.
earlthegoat2
Member
I buy Chippewas and Thorogoods anymore and they both have in house resole and refurbishment services for a nominal fee. Have to send them in but it beats finding a good cobbler.
Mauser lover
Member
https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/101190A
Don't know If it will work, but Numrich says it is a substitute part.
Otherwise, see if you can find someone (anyone) with a lathe and a file and a piece of O-1.
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jarhead127
member
Yup, but there's plenty here in the Amish community, which is why I'm surprised no gunsmiths. Cobbler's, carriage makers, farriers, master furniture builders, all exceptional crafstmen, but yah won't find em on the internet. I do, however, see them in Walmart carryin boxes of shoes from China. How SAD, not just the Amish in Walmart, but me seein em in Walmart. I'm a retired union heavy highway laborer, my business manager would snap if he caught me in there!
Oldschool shooter
Member
IMHO, gunsmithing has gone the way of the auto mechanic. Not many fixers, but a lot of parts replacers.
That's an ejector pin. I need a firing pin, it looks close but without having it in my hands I can't tell if I could convert it.
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