45-70 loads CVA Scout rifle

You'll be fine and congrats on finding a platform from which you can enjoy one of the finest American cartridges ever designed.

Missouri Bullets' with their Hi Tek coatings are some of my favs. They work. I shot them in SASS both out of a revolver and carbine for years even before they went Hi Tek.

As far as PSI limitations go .... the Scout, (considered a modern design as you know), will handle higher pressures than leverguns but I've never been crazy about the old XMP5744 in 45-70 because I always fought bad pressure spikes with it no matter what I tried. It's super temp sensitive and finicky as heck imho.

Do you have anything else with which you could call an audible?

H335
H322
IMR 4198 (great for heavier projectiles as well)
N120
N130
N135
A 2400
A 2520
Varget

Heavier ...

IMR 4227
IMR 3031
IMR 4320
IMR 4064

I mean, imho, any of those would be better options than 5744.

You "should" be fine keeping it south of 28k PSI in your scout, and you could probably go even higher. (You didn't state your charge weight but I'm assuming you're going to throw 38 grains or less of that 5744 under the 300s and less than 30 grains under the 405s?)

I wouldn't hesitate to work-up loads under those parameters with that rifle IF it were me. I would cringe and hold my nose using 5744 while doing it though. (No offense intended to the 5744 fans in advance.)

Now, if you were loading something in the 500 grain range ... 5744 was practically custom made for 500-600 grain boolits. But you're keeping the PSIs down in the 25k range with those.

Edited to add:

I just pulled down an old Lyman edition, out of curiosity, and here's what they say about 5744.

300 gr (these are greased-up boolits not jacketed), start at 37.0 grs of 5744, max at 41.0 grs. CUP should remain between 18k and 28k with those loads.

For the 405s start at 32.0 and max at 36.0 will again keep your CUP levels under 28k.

45-70 is an awsome round that I really enjoy. I dont really see a reason to leave trapdoor pressure, as you will not be fixing the trajectory. Its basically like shooting a rifled slug out of a shotgun. Many do long range target work with 32" barrels and the holly black but killing steel rams at 200 yards is plenty for me.

The only reason to load past trapdoor is for flatter shooting. But what you gain is lost to additional recoil and overkill on what you might want to hunt with. I use AA5744 for most of my loads. Yes, I use other powders, but 5744 works for me. Congrats on the new rifle. A picture would be nice.

Typetwelve said:

of those, I do have Varget and IMR4227. I’ll load some test with Varget…for the life of me, I can’t find and 4227 load data for those two projectiles. Do you have any?

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The 4227 loads would be fine in your Scout ... but I'm kinda in agreement with the guys above ... why push it? 4227 pushes the CUP limits of your Scout. So, for safety's sake and just in case ... let's forget that I suggested 4227. Butttttttt .... however ......... if you wanna delve into it further check-out page 359 of the 50th Anniversary Lyman Edition. 358 and 359 both.

I'll add this however. One of my old favorites loads in my 1895 Marlin is a Missouri Bullet #1 Buffalo (405) securely seated, roll crimped, over 31.5 grains of 4227. That's me ... you gotta work-up your own load. My pet load for the #1 Buffalo is 50.2 of Varget ... in my Marlin 1895.

I don’t have a 4227 recipe for the #2 Buffalo (300) that I can find in my notes. My pet load for the #2 Buffalo has long been 44.5 of IMR 3031 which everyone used to tell me was no good with gas checks and grease ... but they have been butter for me with Hi-Tek.

Do not use my loads .... work up your own. Stick with the manuals friend. And I'll add this just for giggles and grins and because this forum is cool with decent advice .... here goes. For your rifle and the projectiles you have chosen the guys over at Cast Boolits are going to have a lot more load data to share with you for your Scout. They've had a lot of discussions about those things over there, loading for them, pros and cons ... everyone seems to love them. Plus the Cast Boolit guys live and breath this stuff.

What dh1633pm and AJC1 posted above, it carries a lot of weight in my book and you're going to get some of the same at Cast Boolits. Now, my Grandpappy used to swear that 5744 and 4227 were the same powders. Of course, they're not, but a lot of the old load data made them look like they could be.

I just picked up the same gun last Friday. I ordered it for a B-day present back in Dec. I haven't loaded anything for it yet. I did cast some 340gr, 405gr, and 500gr bullets.

Typetwelve said:

In these limited times, I chose a crummy point to dig into a new round…but it is what it is.

I picked up a new CVA Scout last weekend and have located some Accurate 5744 powder, and some Hi Tek Missouri 300 and 405 grain projectiles.

looking at load data, and doing as much online research as I can, I’m finding that I can safely load these to the 30K psi mark?

Most load data in this range shows 27-28K psi, I’m guessing that if I keep it south of that, I should be a-ok?

Any thoughts from other CVA owners?

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First question is, what do you want it to do?
Then come the more specific questions: Are you interested loading for plinking, hunting, casual/informal off-range shooting, none/all of the above? Is it going to be your "bug-out" rifle or just a range queen? How well do you handle recoil and have you ever tried "Ruger/Contender Only" rated .45-70 loads in an ultralight top-break?

Give us some points of reference.

And please before loading heavy do the recoil calculation for the weight of your gun. A very light rifle is nice to carry but this cartridge can be brutal if worked up. Full power modern gun level #2 is more than enough. Do not attempt ruger only #1 loads.

I've got the same rifle in layaway in 444 Marlin caliber.

I have been on both ends (shooter and trench spotter) of a Shiloh Sharps LRE launching a lead 405 over 36.5 grains of IMR 3031 at 900 yards. You would be amazed at what authority a “seemingly” light trapdoor load will land with at 900 yards - the fast, inbound buzz/ whistle and then the impact is amazing to hear and watch - like a mini artillery round. To my point, the advice given to keeping 45-70 loads on the modest side is well given - once that large slug gets motivated, it packs a tremendous punch at extreme ranges.
As another point of interest, we shot 180 grain .300 Weatherby rounds at 1/2” hanging sheet steel at 400 yards - we expected a ring at impact but only heard a very muffled “thud” sound. After four rounds, we checked the target - there was no ringing because the rounds penetrated that 1/2” steel like it wasn’t even there. To this point, I think that a lot of riflemen think that they need ultra speed and horsepower on the bullet end of a rifle - my experience is that most hunters do not realize that they are way over-gunned for flesh and bone. The trapdoor 45-70 loads are “plenty” of horsepower - a little gain in trajectory for a 45-70 costs a lot at the shoulder.

Your choice of bullet and powder are fine. I use IMR4198 almost exclusively to load Trapdoor-level loads for my 1885, but I would use AA5744 as an alternate (and have, with good results; ) their behavior in the .45-70 at Trappy levels is quite similar. IMR4227 might be a reasonable choice as well, but looking at my notes, I haven't worked with it specifically in the .45-70, but I have in other rifle cartridges with cast bullets. Varget, on the other hand, is quite slow... I would not use it unless you were loading 'modern lever-action' loads, which I would not load unless you just have to have the horsepower.

My threshold of shooter comfort in the .45-70, that with my 14# 1885, is about 1500fps, with a 405grn bullet. Beyond that, it starts to become unfun, and I don't like to do things that aren't fun. I have loaded 405's with IMR3031, 4895, and 4064... pushing them to 1700fps... and it was pure misery as a target shooter, with no benefit. 27grn AA5744 and the Montana 405grn GC bullet gave me 1400fps out of the 32" barrel of my 1885, as a reference.

Edit to add: You can find loading data for AA5744 at the manufacturer's website, and would be valid for your bullets. Lyman is another good place for cast bullet data as well.

Charlie98 said:

27grn AA5744 and the Montana 405grn GC bullet gave me 1400fps out of the 32" barrel of my 1885, as a reference.

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That's a really good load. I have tried it before in a friend's Sharps rifle (his loads, not mine) and it's almost like shooting black powder out of a full size modern reproduction of the US Infantry rifle. I do use IMR 4227 for most of my loads just because it's one of my staple powders - along with IMR 3031, IMR 4895 and IMR 4064 - but 1500fps out of my Marlin with a 405gr. #2 Alloy bullet is my goal. Any faster and it could (has) roll the animal at close range instead of punching through. When that big, flat nosed bullet gets moving too fast, it can tumble and turn inside the animal instead of punching through. Bad ju-ju.

BTW: The harder alloy is for the Marlin because of it's microgroove barrel - not recommended for any other platform.

I sold off every .45-70 in my collection except the Marlin just recently. Personal reasons, mostly, but also because I ran out of my preferred 405gr. and the guy I bought them from went out of business for COVID reasons - he's alive and well, just tired of the hassles and he lost all of his employees so he give it up - and I just wasn't shooting the old Trapdoors. Now I only load for the Marlin and I'm going to go back to my Pet Loads and crank out a few of the light-n-fast jacketed loads I use for pigs and deer. The big heavies are great for all around use, and they're easier on the ears! but, for close-in from behind a blind or in a tree stand, I prefer the softer recoil of a 300gr. Sierra over 44gr. of IMR 4227. It clocks in at just a few clicks past 1900fps during the Spring and Fall months - such as we have a Spring and Fall down here in the tropics - and is a guaranteed pump stopper on anything it hits, assuming I do my part. I use the Mdl.444 Marlin far more than the .45-70 Mdl.1895 Marlin simply because it's generally been a more nearly accurate rifle in my hands. The .444Marlin is an interesting hunting round.

@Typetwelve - how you doing with this? Interested to hear your thoughts on the load you're using and impression of the rifle.

Me too.