Leading issue 9 mm Luger Any help ?

Zap01! said:

Couldn’t find any Chore boy locally so I ordered some but I clean the it the best I could with a 45 brush it looks really clean to me pictures really don’t do it justice

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I don’t think it’s lead you’re seeing, I think it’s the coating streaking. I’ve seen that in rifles with Hi-Tek but not pistol. Next time you get “leading” try using a patch soaked with MEK or acetone and see if it dissolves. Solvent won’t melt lead.

Isn't 1000fps the general accepted max fps for lead before it does start leading?
If thats still the number then the starting load in that lee manual is (a little) too fast, they are listing 1043fps. You have to go down several rows to below universal to get under 1000 starting. Accurate #2,700x,clays for example.

Zap01! said:

I clean the it the best I could with a 45 brush it looks really clean to me

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Barrel actually looks pretty good without splotches or obvious lead streaking.

GeoDudeFlorida said:

I don’t think it’s lead you’re seeing, I think it’s the coating streaking.

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May be the case.

enine said:

Zap01! said:

Dg bullets ... 9mm ... coated 115 gr rn ... accurate #5 5.2 gr

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Isn't 1000fps the general accepted max fps for lead before it does start leading?

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Not necessarily and OP is using coated bullet which should prevent leading beyond 1000 fps. But I do believe Speer mentions keeping 125 gr Lead RN load data around 1000 fps to prevent leading.

Hodgdon load data lists 5.2 gr as start charge for 115 gr Lead RN (Hodgdon bought Accurate) - https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center

• 9mm 115 gr Laser Cast LRN No. 5 COL 1.070" Start 5.2 gr (1,034 fps) - Max 6.1 gr (1,179 fps)

• 9mm 115 gr RMR FMJ RN No. 5 COL 1.120" Start 5.6 gr (1,036 fps) - Max 6.2 gr (1,124 fps)

And I would make sure I wasn't overly taper crimping to cut into the coating which could expose lead core. So for .356" sized coated bullets, I would use no more than .378" taper crimp which should bring flare back flat on the bullet.

If you have some pure lead and propane torch all you need is a un-sized, fired 9mm case. The case has a taper that makes it easy to start, being fired it's over sized. Once you melt the lead into the spent case use your kinetic bullet puller to get the lead slug out. Then oil you barrel then drive the slug through. Now measure it, depending on rifling even or odd will decide what type of measurement tool is needed.

I would throw that factory crimp die in the trash.

Willing to bet it's under sizing your bullets as you run it through the die.

Zap01! said:

I’m using a factory crimp die is that what you mean by taper crimp ?

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No.

Factory Crimp Die has carbide sizer ring to post size finished rounds to SAAMI specs with .355" sized bullets.

Since you are using .356" sized coated lead bullet, especially with thicker walled cases, you could be post sizing case neck and reducing bullet diameter down, perhaps around .355".

Lee taper crimp die is combination bullet seating and taper crimp die. Can you set the FCD aside and just use the combo die to taper crimp to .378"?

Zap01! said:

Couldn’t find any Chore boy locally so I ordered some but I clean the it the best I could with a 45 brush it looks really clean to me pictures really don’t do it justice

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"Couldn’t find any Chore boy locally", look for it at convenience stores in any druggie neighborhood.
It's used in Meth and Crack pipes.
No druggie neighborhood, never mind,

.

Zap01! said:

I think that did the trick

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Nice, happy to hear.

Zap01! said:

I would say we have the problem 95% of the way fixed I think maybe my velocities are too high now that we got the majority of the problem fixed I might try A reduced load See if that takes care of it

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Sounds like a plan.

Zap01! said:

lee book it makes the fcd seem a essential component to reload for semi automatic pistols But I’m guessing if you’re loading jacketed bullets size To .355 it would make it more like factory may be more reliable?

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Many/most factory/OEM rounds are made using "finishing" dies like FCD to ensure finished rounds will chamber reliably in SAAMI spec barrels. Since FCD can "fix" dimensional issues not addressed by other die adjustments like not full-length resized brass, tilted bullet/oblong case neck, thicker walled brass, etc., FCD could be "essential" to producing "factory" like dimensions of finished rounds using .355" sized bullets.

But when we are using larger .356" sized bullets, especially with thicker case wall brass, post-sizing can be an issue, particularly with lead/coated lead bullets.

I am quite certain Federal likely uses "finishing die" to manufacture their coated bullet Syntech ammunition - https://www.federalpremium.com/handgun/syntech/

And if you are interested in improving consistency of your loads, here's step-by-step load development I outlined for another member - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-discussions.778197/page-10#post-11419509

Zap01! said:

I think that did the trick I shot 5 and

Used acetone and clean barrel it got rid of most of it but there was still a very very small amount of lead that came out with a brush So I loaded up 20 more and clean the barrel again got very little amount of lead out. (Definitely livable Much better than what it was ) The picture of the towel was after a shot 27 not all powdery like it was before now I have bigger pieces

I would say we have the problem 95% of the way fixed I think maybe my velocities are too high now that we got the majority of the problem fixed I might try A reduced load See if that takes care of it Thank all of you so much

In the lee book it makes the fcd seem a essential component to reload for semi automatic pistols But I’m guessing if you’re loading jacketed bullets size To .355 it would make it more like factory may be more reliable? But I think there should be a warning label on the diy that says not for lead Might be common sense for some of you but to a new reloader like myself kind of confusing when it says must have for auto loaders

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Great news! Glad you got it dialed in.

Zap01! said:

Ohio about 20 miles from Cincinnati

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Unfortunately too far for me. I grew up in Lorain and even that would be a drive. Glad to see you got it mostly resolved, now it’s just fine tuning it.

Glad to hear you’re sorting things out.

Zap01! said:

I would say we have the problem 95% of the way fixed I think maybe my velocities are too high now that we got the majority of the problem fixed I might try A reduced load See if that takes care of it Thank all of you so much

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Unless you have a chronograph it’s difficult to know what your V is. The published data I have for AA#5 L RN bullet has a 6.1 - 6.5gr range at 1.070”. At 5.2 and 1.075”, you’re well below that, not sure a reduced load from there is advisable.

One other suggestion is in your picture where you’re measuring the case mouth for .378”, turn your caliper 90 degrees to the table and use the knife edges just at the mouth of the case. The 9mm has a tapered case and you’re measuring below the case mouth, not at it. You might still be cutting the coating depending on how much crimp you have dialed in. The crimp is just enough to remove the bell and allow the cartridge to chamber.

Some people love the FCD, some people hate it. For some it works well, for others it’s the bane of reloading. I don’t want to ignite the fire again, but I’ve found it works ok, but I just dialed in enough crimp to remove the bell.

I'm a little late to the party but I suffered a similar issue many years ago with a slightly oversized Kart match barrel. I was manifested in bullets that would tumble and produce terrible leading. I went through a similar exercise with dies and "crimping"! My saga lasted several months with cast bullets and coated bullets too.

To make a loooong story short I was determined to cast my own 9mm bullets since I was having success with 45 and 38 bullets. My final success turned out to be the NOE .358 135 grain, RNFP die, similar profile that you are using. My lead is alloyed to around 10 BHN way softer than most commercial cast bullets. My lube is also softer than commercial bullet lubes.

After casting and sitting for a week, these are then sized and lubed in a .357 bullet sizer/lube die. Please note these are 135 grains, sized to .357! I then load these using a mid- burn rate powder (Win Auto Comp) at around 850 fps. Crimp is only used to remove the bell at the case mouth (.379-.380) for 9mm. I use the same bullet for .38 Spl and 38 Super! Starting with a surgically clean barrel I have eliminated any leading and no bullet tumbling in that Kart barrel. I "floss" my barrels with a rolled-up paper towel!

I now have one bullet for the different guns and no leading.

Manufacturers tend to use really hard lead and hard lubes that in my experience contributed to my barrel issue. But mostly I blame the leading on under sized bullets for my barrel.

Bullet casting and reloading are as much an art as a science.

Smiles,

Full disclosure: I've been reloading since the late 1960's!

LiveLife said:

Nice, happy to hear.


Sounds like a plan.


Many/most factory/OEM rounds are made using "finishing" dies like FCD to ensure finished rounds will chamber reliably in SAAMI spec barrels. Since FCD can "fix" dimensional issues not addressed by other die adjustments like not full-length resized brass, tilted bullet/oblong case neck, thicker walled brass, etc., FCD could be "essential" to producing "factory" like dimensions of finished rounds using .355" sized bullets.

But when we are using larger .356" sized bullets, especially with thicker case wall brass, post-sizing can be an issue, particularly with lead/coated lead bullets.

I am quite certain Federal likely uses "finishing die" to manufacture their coated bullet Syntech ammunition - https://www.federalpremium.com/handgun/syntech/

And if you are interested in improving consistency of your loads, here's step-by-step load development I outlined for another member - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-discussions.778197/page-10#post-11419509

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Aha!

I got some of that Federal Syntech (before I started loading) and was really disappointed with the accuracy! I'll bet your right!

It wasn't just, "not very good", it was substantially less accurate than FMJ and bare lead.

The 9mm Lee “factory crimp” dies works differently!!!

It ONLY sizes the base of the 9mm case, removing most of the Glock smile and pressure expansion ring, but doesn’t touch the bullet area of the seated bullet. It will reduce some of the “cocked” out of round seated bullets, reducing run-out. The 9mm IS NOT A STRAIGHT WALL case. It’s tapered!

A Lee 9mm Luger factory crimp die won’t reduce the neck and in turn, the seated bullet diameter.
Plus, there is the RIFLE factory crimp die that ONLY crimps the neck via a collet and 4 “fingers’ squeezing the case neck. Apples and oranges.
For over two decades I’ve used a Lee FC die to crimp my MATCH GRADE 9mm cases separate from seating the bullet preventing bullet shaving which ruins accuracy.