Kentucky Windage and Practical Marksmanship

Status
Not open for further replies.

Dr T

Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2010
Messages
1,623
Location
Colorado and West Texas
There are few things that I find more satisfying than shooting a one-hole group with my hunting rifle. Indeed, given the improvements in the quality of factory built rifles, optics, and ammunition, it is rather common to find an off the shelf rifle that will hold a 1" three shot group at 100 yards with no tweaking. There is an entire generation of shooters that are used to this quality, so that when things go a bit south, they may be a bit confused on how to correct the situation.

Which brings me to the subject of my post. Back in what my children think of as the OLDEN DAYS, it was unusual to find a rifle that would perform well out the box. A lot of us learned to shoot with 22's with sights that could be referred to optimistically a mediocre. If you were about to shoot a buddy's 22 at a jackrabbit you would typically ask "How does this shoot" and get an answer about like "High and a little to the left." You would then make the suggested correction in the aim and shoot. If you missed, and the rabbit was still around, you make another correction based on the observed point of impact (it is dry in West Texas and bullets would kick up dust when they hit) and shoot again. There were a lot of hares, so you got lots of practice. Fundamentally, the sights suggested where to point the gun and the rest was based on adjusting the aim to the observed point of impact.

How does this translate to the situation today? I have found that few of my rifles will hold zero when I go from Denver at 5280 ft altitude to West Texas at 2300 feet altitude. And travel tends to knock sights around. In the best circumstances, I go and carefully re-zero the rifle. But sometimes the circumstances are not at the best, and you have to go back to the old fashioned way. Such circumstances include your scope getting a hard knock on something hard while getting out of the truck or off the horse. Or you need to grab your 22 in a hurry because of the rattlesnake you nearly stepped on. This is why I practice on reactive targets..

Come to think of it, this technique is formalized by the two-man sniper team with a spotter and a shooter. But they shoot with a lot more precision that I could ever obtain.
 
Funny story... I had a Ruger single-action .44SPC that shot very left... an acquaintance of mine suggested 'just take a pair of pliers and bend the sight, or put it in a vice.'

No, I did not take his advise.
 
"Windage and elevation, Mrs. Langdon, windage and elevation.”
Col. John Henry Thomas (John Wayne) “The Undefeated”

Let's say your .22 is zeroed at 25 yards. You have a juicy jackalope at 75 yards, not to mention the constant desert breeze... "Too far to take an ethical shot", say many shooters. But if one has been practicing his/her rifle at various ranges and various conditions, they should have a very good working knowledge of the drop and drift tof heir rifle. They have the knowledge, skill, and confidence to take a 75 yard shot and make the hit. It's in the practice and application.
In my neck of the woods, those jackalopes don't stick around for second spurt of dust in their face. Windage and elevation, basic rifle marksmanship.
I used to be able to shoot like that, even out to 100 yards with my .22. Now, I don't see as well as I used to, so I'm pickier about my shots.
 
Last edited:
I’d contend that the adjustments described above are more common today than any time in any generation prior. Multiple generations pre and post-War were very much “set it and forget it,” and passed on a principle of “once you get it zeroed, don’t mess with it.” Thankfully, the last ~3 generations have abandoned this principle, and are more aware of the need to correct zeroes on their rifles due to changing conditions than ever before. There are also more people educated in long range marksmanship than at any time in history, such shooters are well prepared to find corrections and make them.

I confirm my zero and slip my dials when needed at least once a month throughout the year. For a rifle I haven’t fired in a while, I always take confirmation shots, and often even check velocity, if I’ll be shooting more than 100yrds.

In contrast to prior generations, folks now seem to more readily realize they don’t need to tolerate a rifle shooting high and left - they know to adjust the sights or optic to zero POI to POA. There’s less fear of “leaving well enough alone” and more interest in getting it right.

I had that fight several years ago with a fellow Hunter’s Safety Ed instructor I taught under. He owned a fleet of single shot rifles for the live fire section, and none shot to point of aim - and every session he’d tell the students to simply hold wherever he knew each shot. Since the students were scored on the targets, I got fed up with the offsets and zeroed all of the rifles before the session one weekend. Not surprisingly, none of the students had to reshoot to pass that section, unlike most of our other sessions instructing together, which usually had around 1/3 of the students reshooting to qualify. Rather than fighting an arbitrary offset and floating the target picture, the students were able to hold hard and deliver shots on center. When I mentioned this to the other instructor, he asked why I’d zeroed the rifles - my response was to ask why he never had? He said he didn’t know - I had to teach him how to zero his rifles… an instructor… But now he knows, and doesn’t use offset sights any longer.
 
Back east here I think a lot of people didn't mess with the scopes (or iron sights) much because it didn't matter much. Being 2-3" off (or heck even 5" off) at under 100 yards usually still is a kill. If you move it out to 300+ yards that error is getting tremendously magnified.

Heck I had one old timer try to tell me when I bought a new scope that "the scope is already set out of the box - you don't need to mess with it". I tried to explain to him that that was physically impossible (eg, different rifles and ring combinations are going to have it positioned differently relative to the bore), but he wouldn't have it - the scope is "already set". He also considered a .30-30 to be a "50 yard rifle" - and ironically he hunted with a Winchester 94 .30-30 with a side mounted scope. Could have just been that he couldn't hit anything past 50 yards :).
 
^ Thankfully, younger generations have learned to recognize the ignorance pouring off of these folks.

Not all older Gen guys were the same - I learned most of what I know from guys who would now be in their 80s to 100+, so the knowledge WAS out there. But way, way too many older Gen guys thought the velocity on the box meant something and pie-plates were proper measures of precision… and unfortunately, they also thought they had something to offer younger Gen folks - and worst, thought the younger Gen folks really should listen to the BS they had to offer…
 
Pie plates aren’t a bad measure of precision….. if you can reliably hit the thing every time at the range you’re shooting at ;) But zeroing the sights makes a huge difference. Kentucky windage works ok if it’s actually necessary but why handicap yourself with a built-in error right out of the gate?
 
I had an older gentleman who is respected as a hunter tell me last year that he was going to have to buy a new rifle because his 270 pump with a 3-9 Tasco scope just wouldn't kill any more.I asked him if he'd checked the zero and was quickly told that he knew there was nothing wrong with it because he'd had it zeroed since he bought it many years ago and it hasn't been bumped.I just let him ramble on about how a rifle will lose its ability to kill after so many rounds because the riflings in the barrel get worn out.Another local expert wore a hat with most of the bill cut off because his hat bill hit his scope and pushed it forward when he shot his hard kicking 7MM Rem. Mag.When I suggested tightening the rings down a bit more because the movement was caused more by inertia than his hat bill I got a long lesson in ballistics,including the old "did you know that a bullet rises and falls" myth.I've mounted hundreds of scopes and have probably forgot more than these two experts will ever know but I've learned it's better to let them think they're teaching me something rather than try to explain to them what's really going on.Old rednecks tend to be both dumb and stubborn.
 
Oh man, when I was a young kid I remember Kentucky windage. In those days sights had to be drifted to adjust for windage and some filed for elevation. But most had a ramp for elevation. Thank God for adjustable sights and scopes. But sometimes you do have to hold for wind and distance hunting. I like range finders too.
 
Sometimes it is not discovering properties of the firearm, it is discovering properties of one's own self.

I've kind'a sort'a known myself for a while. Gotten to know that guy behind my firearms' sights ... maybe a bit ... maybe a bit too much. So this guy (i.e. me) picks up a handgun with fixed sights, a handgun he's never fired. Knowing this shooter, I kick-in the fellow's Inherent Kentucky Windage Factor, IKWF (yes, I did just made-up this term). Surprisingly often, he puts one in the black right out of the chute.

I have purchased a new handgun with adjustable sights, get to the range and before firing the thing, I use the magically mysterious IKWF to adjust the rear sight, then bang bang bang. I most often discover that my pre-firing sight correction was the correct first step. Thus, I saved at least three or five rounds of ammo getting it into the black.

upload_2022-11-15_18-32-0.png
 
When my kid was in the Marine Corps boot camp, he said it was drilled into him NO Kentucky windage......ever. When he shot at different distances, always "clicked" it in, then held dead on. What they taught him. Spent 5 years in Marines, but never served in a combat roll, so never got to put that to the test.

So when he gets out, wants his own rifle, so gets a 308 Win in tactical setup. Heavy barrel, tactical scope. Sniper rifle. Nice piece. Tells me he wants to be able to shoot deer out to at least 500 yards. Have seen his targets from boot camp....he shot Expert and said they actually asked him to switch his MOS to sniper. So he is certainly good enough to do that......if they would just hold still long enough. I mention hunting is not always like that.......best to zero rifle at dead on at 200 yards, then take all shots shorter than that at dead on......past that, he can either hold over (puke) or click as needed if he has time to. His only reply was, OK, but no Kentucky windage......ever.

So deer season comes around, in his stand, looks up and in the distance spots 3 deer coming at him. 300 yards out. But not standing around....moving. For some reason, he takes a shot......misses. They keep coming........now about 200 yards.....another shot, another miss. Keep coming closer.......till a doe stops 50 yards away.....right in front of him, open field and broadside. She is looking round trying to figure out what all the hubbub is about. Now aims at a stationary shoulder and bang flop. That was his first. Has taken several more since and none of them beyond 150 yards and all of them one shot kills. No clicks on any of them. All part of the conversion from theoretical marksman to hunter.
 
When I take a shot at say, a Caribou at 200 yards, a second shot on either the same Caribou or another, well, the second shot will be 250+.
As well, lead on a moving animal is a 'learned' thing, and thats where 'windage' is a factor.

These adjustments in range or lead are done without touching the sights, which I keep sighted POI at 200 Yards, due to my wide open Tundra and miles of visibility.
 
When I take a shot at say, a Caribou at 200 yards, a second shot on either the same Caribou or another, well, the second shot will be 250+.
As well, lead on a moving animal is a 'learned' thing, and thats where 'windage' is a factor.

These adjustments in range or lead are done without touching the sights, which I keep sighted POI at 200 Yards, due to my wide open Tundra and miles of visibility.


Caribou,
That was an immensely enlightening bit of information.
Most of my mil-surps are zero’d for 250-300 yds for a man sized target.
However for hunting, I too prefer to use a 200yd zero.

Thanks for the comment, and good to see you’re still kicking!
 
I have used a lot of Kentucky over the years, and still do. I shoot vintage military matches, and often the sights are more of a suggestion of where the bullet should go than an accurate aiming device. With up to 5 sighters in block time, there really isn't much time to dig out a brass punch and drift the front sight. You just cheat a little left or right on the black. The ones I shoot a lot have been painstaikingly zeroed however. That doesn't account for a bit of wind on the line (contrary to popular belief, a significant wind WILL cause significant movemet of a .30 cal bullet at 200 yards). When I shoot 600 slow fire with my AR, I also tend to use Kentucky after an initial zero to the conditions with sighters. In EIC, you get no sighters, so it's all Kentucky, at least on the windage. I find it easier to aim opposite the spotter than dial in a guess while the conditions are changing. I never seem to guess right with that, but have had outstanding success holding a touch of Kentucky and firing the next round before the wind changes.
 
Fundamentally, the sights suggested where to point the gun and the rest was based on adjusting the aim to the observed point of impact.

How does this translate to the situation today?

Now you would have a reticle that allows you to note the position of the observed point of impact to reuse it on other targets at the same distance.

658D0983-E1AB-41DB-A4D4-37B06C80731A.jpeg

Or you can still use the same methods you used to.

 
Man that reticle picture looks really busy. I can understand how it could be useful but I think that reticle would bother me.
 
My problems with busy reticles:

1. Deer move faster than I can count.
2. Distances are uncertain in the field and deer move faster than you can use a rangefinder.
3. On a varigated background, the little dots get lost in the ocular noise (especially if you have less than perfect eyesight).
 
1. Deer move faster than I can count.

1) They really don’t, if you have any opportunity for a shot at a distance which requires holdovers, otherwise you’ve poorly planned your hunt.

2) When you’re practiced at using these, you don’t “count” with these reticles, you simply read and reference.

2. Distances are uncertain in the field and deer move faster than you can use a rangefinder.

1) Again, unless your hunt is poorly planned, no they don’t.

2) Hunters have the luxury of pre-reading, even pre-MARKING their hunting fields to provide quick reference.

3) If you can’t determine a real distance to the animal, you can’t properly hold-over with a duplex or irons either, so your claim here is moot. If you’re taking long shots without ranging, you’re unethical, and if you’re not hunting long enough that range determination matters, then you simply can’t and don’t need to make use of any hold over aid. Claiming Kentucky windage - unmeasured and imprecise as it is - is faster or better in any way than a finite aiming point is patently false.

3. On a varigated background, the little dots get lost in the ocular noise (especially if you have less than perfect eyesight).

1) That’s one of the “busiest” reticles on the market, and has exceptionally specific applications - but you really don’t lose integrity on these. You’re still focusing on your point of aim within the reticle. So if you can focus on any reticle - if your eyes will cleanly render the center of a duplex - you can also focus on the provided aiming points on graduated reticles.

2) The real downside on highly detailed reticles like that is how much of the field they obscure behind the reticle. A shooter has to balance a choice between guiding recoil to see their impact response in clear glass, or to guide the aiming point back onto the target in case follow up is needed.

So I find there’s really two types of guys who say this kind of thing:

1) Guys who aren’t really shooting long enough distance for any of it to matter - but they’re still willing to cast aspersions against others who are.

Or

2) Guys who unfortunately DO shoot game at long range, without measuring distance and without measuring correction, and stand up on how fast they are at holding their muzzle up in the air and flinging a bullet in the general direction of game animals. But ol’ “ten inches over the top of his back Joe” wounds (and completely misses) a lot more deer than he admits.
 
Last edited:
I will observe that in order to elicit a cogent argument, it is sometimes necessary to play the devil's advocate.

I still prefer a simple duplex, and I hunt at known ranges with well defined, pre-measured markers. Having lived most of my life with one good eye, I find busy recticles tend to give me a headache.

When I am plinking at tin cans, however, all bets are off. Especially if I am using my Super Blackhawk with subsonic loads and trying to hit a 5 gallon bucket at 100 yards.
 
Although the problem with Kentucky windage is casting dispersions of bullets around the target.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top