MCgunner
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In order to critique you, we'll need photos and video clips...
Marksmanship Rant
- Thread starter krolden
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In order to critique you, we'll need photos and video clips...
I'm always amused by some of the ranges people claim to shoot at on a regular basis. I'm not saying marksmanship isn't it's own pursuit, but surely in the real world, if I'm presented with a target at 800m, I'm either A) leaving expeditiously or B) getting closer, depending on whether the target is armed or edible, respectively.
Regardless, if you can knock a squirrel in the starfish at 500m, offhand, in the rain,with a smoothbore BP long gun, uphill both ways, well, good on ya. I see no reason why the way other people shoot should upset you.
I tend to shoot the way I like, up to and including the el cheapo 4x on my SKS because it satisfies me to do so. Really, that's all the answer the OP needs to his question. My gun, my business, not yours.
Nyah.
Regardless, if you can knock a squirrel in the starfish at 500m, offhand, in the rain,with a smoothbore BP long gun, uphill both ways, well, good on ya. I see no reason why the way other people shoot should upset you.
I tend to shoot the way I like, up to and including the el cheapo 4x on my SKS because it satisfies me to do so. Really, that's all the answer the OP needs to his question. My gun, my business, not yours.
Nyah.
pgeleven
Member
why optics? easy. because sometimes you only get one shot.
I can appreciate the OP's observation that "everything" these days does seem to have some type of optical sight on it. In my recent experience optics easily outnumbered iron by more than three to one I'd guess.
That doesn't bother me in the least. As has already been pointed out-it's none of my business. It does make me wonder if a lot of shooters *could* shoot with iron sights if they *had* to though.
The bench has it's uses even for an iron sight-only shooter, and obviously for testing loads, scopes, or even just having a relaxing afternoon nothing beats a bench.
I don't hunt, but I am in full agreement with those that have pointed out the advantages of optics for hunting so well. Two that caught my eye were target ID and humane shots. Who in their right mind can argue with that?
I will share an incident that happened recently when my father and I were shooting his M1 Garand and my '03A3 at 200 yards (actually it was more like 230 yards because my dad insisted on setting up the targets right ON the berm lol).
We were finishing up and bringing our targets in when the gentleman at the station next to us looked over and said-
"You guys are getting groups like that with iron sights at 200 yards?". I can't even get groups like that at 75 yards off the bench with a scope!"
And that as they say was PRICELESS!
That doesn't bother me in the least. As has already been pointed out-it's none of my business. It does make me wonder if a lot of shooters *could* shoot with iron sights if they *had* to though.
The bench has it's uses even for an iron sight-only shooter, and obviously for testing loads, scopes, or even just having a relaxing afternoon nothing beats a bench.
I don't hunt, but I am in full agreement with those that have pointed out the advantages of optics for hunting so well. Two that caught my eye were target ID and humane shots. Who in their right mind can argue with that?
I will share an incident that happened recently when my father and I were shooting his M1 Garand and my '03A3 at 200 yards (actually it was more like 230 yards because my dad insisted on setting up the targets right ON the berm lol).
We were finishing up and bringing our targets in when the gentleman at the station next to us looked over and said-
"You guys are getting groups like that with iron sights at 200 yards?". I can't even get groups like that at 75 yards off the bench with a scope!"
And that as they say was PRICELESS!
Omnivore
Member
Well, I can tell why I do it. I'm testing the rifle's accuracy potential. Using a solid bench and a good rest takes away some of the primary variables (me) and I can focus on loads and scope adjustments and such. Once the rifle's inherent accuracy has been determined, I can concentrate on trying to reach that level without the gear. And yes, in fact, you can find ways to support the rifle in the field, which at least come somewhat close to benchrest stability.
Once you've actually experienced what your rifle can do, you're much more likely to achieve that, or close to it, without the "crutches". Call it a mental thing-- it is.
Optics on rifles. Ask the professionals. More and more of them are using glass of some sort, even on assault rifles and subguns . Try it on moving targets and you will be converted in about 2 rounds. Ever loose a front iron post against a dark target? Me too. It's impossible with a whiz-bang tacticool dot sight. Ever loose focus on the front sight when under stress? Me too. Doesn't happen with glass-- reticle and target are on the same focal plane.
Yes, you can get along with the irons if you must. That's a good thing in a pinch. Yes a good optic is better in every definable way-- contrast with the target, field of view, same focal plane, easier adjustments in many cases, but most importantly, there is less information to process in a critical situation, and fewer steps required in getting to that point where you take the shot. I've experienced "information overload" (as a live audio engineer when things are going wrong and several people are trying to get your attention while you're trying to debug) and it sucks.
Can superior training overcome some of the deficiencies of iron sights? Sure. You could also be a pretty good sniper with a flintlock if you practice enough. Not enough reach? Well, learn to stock.
When superior technology comes along and makes things easier, don't scoff. Embrace.
Once you've actually experienced what your rifle can do, you're much more likely to achieve that, or close to it, without the "crutches". Call it a mental thing-- it is.
Optics on rifles. Ask the professionals. More and more of them are using glass of some sort, even on assault rifles and subguns . Try it on moving targets and you will be converted in about 2 rounds. Ever loose a front iron post against a dark target? Me too. It's impossible with a whiz-bang tacticool dot sight. Ever loose focus on the front sight when under stress? Me too. Doesn't happen with glass-- reticle and target are on the same focal plane.
Yes, you can get along with the irons if you must. That's a good thing in a pinch. Yes a good optic is better in every definable way-- contrast with the target, field of view, same focal plane, easier adjustments in many cases, but most importantly, there is less information to process in a critical situation, and fewer steps required in getting to that point where you take the shot. I've experienced "information overload" (as a live audio engineer when things are going wrong and several people are trying to get your attention while you're trying to debug) and it sucks.
Can superior training overcome some of the deficiencies of iron sights? Sure. You could also be a pretty good sniper with a flintlock if you practice enough. Not enough reach? Well, learn to stock.
When superior technology comes along and makes things easier, don't scoff. Embrace.
Though my posts on this thread, I may have failed to mention one possibly relevant fact-- since Appleseed was brought up.
I have to remember that many shooters do not come from a shooting environment. Some are not put through the paces growing up that others were.
These lessons have been in the forefront of my mind in the last couple years as my father and I have been teaching my 8 year-old nephew to shoot. He, like many, immediately wanted to put a scope on his little .22 cricket single-shot.
I had to explain to him that it was important for him first to gain proficiency with iron sights before using an optic. I explained to him that the use of irons is a basic skill that all riflemen should learn.
I went on to explain to him that both his grandfather and I learned that way, and that every person in our family learned iron sights before using optics on rifles.
I think he understands.
My point is that I get it. I think a lot of others get it, too. Oh, I am sure that there may be someone out there who literally has never fired a rifle without glass on top. I'd probably suggest that they learn their irons just like I did with Harrison.
However....
After decades of shooting, and thousands and thousands of rounds shot from irons-- including smallbore, largebore, and shotguns-- I think I've gained enough proficiency that I have nothing to prove to myself or anyone else.
I KNOW I can use my irons anytime I need to. I also KNOW when optics are a better choice. I also think that I've done my time. I-- like many others-- are at a level where choosing to use optics IN NO WAY deteriorates proficiency with irons. Optics just become a better choice for most uses we have for the firearm.
When I say that use of optics after putting in years of using both optic and irons does not deteriorate iron-sight use, I mean this:
I can speak from my own recent experiences that I can shoot using optics for an indefinate peroid of time, and then if I pick up a rifle with irons, somehow I still hit my targets.
At some point, it isn't a function of the small things. At some point, you just shoot what you pick up and you do it with proficiency.
I can't say what number of shots that takes, or how many years it takes. For some, I imagine that they develop an affinity with firearms rather quickly. Others may never make the connection.
But if you do develop your skills and use them, you will likely never lose them.
So again... who cares.
-- John
dmazur
Member
I have a rifle with a heavy barrel and a 6.5x20 scope for long range hunting. (Well, 300 yds max as I define "long"...) I used a bench rest to develop loads, and then switched to sticks, which I plan to use for hunting.
I also have a rifle with a carbine-length barrel and peep sights for hunting in brush areas, where I'll be lucky to get a shot at 100 yds. I shot this rifle from a bench rest to adjust the sights, then switched to offhand shooting and shooting from an "improvised rest" (forearm hand against a vertical post.)
I don't confuse either one of these with plinking cans with a .22 or shooting at IDPA targets with a pistol.
It's all shooting. While I'm not a dedicated benchrest or F-Class shooter, I don't think they're nuts. Or wrong. (Mr. Zumbo's remarks are way too fresh in my mind to start thinking along those lines...)
I'm not sure we need to criticize a particular aspect of our sport as much as, perhaps, encourage each other to do better. As many of the previous replies have suggested.
I also have a rifle with a carbine-length barrel and peep sights for hunting in brush areas, where I'll be lucky to get a shot at 100 yds. I shot this rifle from a bench rest to adjust the sights, then switched to offhand shooting and shooting from an "improvised rest" (forearm hand against a vertical post.)
I don't confuse either one of these with plinking cans with a .22 or shooting at IDPA targets with a pistol.
It's all shooting. While I'm not a dedicated benchrest or F-Class shooter, I don't think they're nuts. Or wrong. (Mr. Zumbo's remarks are way too fresh in my mind to start thinking along those lines...)
I'm not sure we need to criticize a particular aspect of our sport as much as, perhaps, encourage each other to do better. As many of the previous replies have suggested.
if someone wants to shoot from a bench all the time, it's fine. i would encourage them to try some other positions and really become a versatile marksman, but it's not alot of my business. i do wonder why everyone looks at me for laying prone and kneeling and sitting while they're at the bench. makes me feel manly
. and i also HATE how my range has a big yelow board in front of every station so you cant shoot standing unless you're under five feet tall. why should my little sister get to shoot standing while i cant!?
. and i also HATE how my range has a big yelow board in front of every station so you cant shoot standing unless you're under five feet tall. why should my little sister get to shoot standing while i cant!?Tarvis
Member
Holy smokes, too much to read. I think what it comes down to is that everyone shoots for different reasons. Take IDPA vs USPSA for example; those that are interested in solely shooting practical pistol to hone their self defense skills would be more tuned to IDPA, while those that shoot for the sport and possibly for pistol skills will shoot USPSA. I read an article on how USPSA is an abomination because it strayed from the true sense of a real life situation, but that argument is on the same lines as saying there is no need for anyone to shoot in benchrest competitions. I think there is a big shift to optics mostly because technology has come a long way and there is some VERY good glass out there.
In the end, everyone should be able to shoot iron sights, as it's a skill worth learning.
In the end, everyone should be able to shoot iron sights, as it's a skill worth learning.
coloradokevin
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krolden said:
To address your first point, I think shooting off of a bench rest is a great way to test ammo and develop loads... Simply put, it removes a good chunk of the human error from the equation, allowing you to get a true group-to-group comparison.
On the optics issue, I go back and forth. I thought it was cheesy when I first saw Eotechs showing up on everyone's AR-15. Then I tried one during a tactical rifle course I had at work. WOW! These things truly are faster, and make both-eyes-open shooting much easier (particularly for someone who is cross eye dominant like myself).
Having said that, I still only have iron sights on my work rifle (mostly due to budget constraints). Some of the guys on my shift give me hell about it, with comments like: "your life depends on that, you really need to get some optics", or "you don't have a chance with only iron sights". These guys are ignorant. Guns have been around a lot longer than HWS systems, and they function fine with iron sights. An Eotech-type of device can make a trained/fast shooter faster, but it won't make a poor marksman into a good shot! To put this in perspective, my rifle class had 25 officers in it. Of these 25, probably 13-15 had Eotechs or Aimpoints. At the end of our courses we always have a shoot-off for "Top Gun" bragging rights. I came in at second place using iron sights, behind a guy who was also using iron sights. The third place finisher was also an iron sights guy... While this doesn't invalidate an Eotech or other optic on an AR-15, it does provide some evidence that using these optics won't automatically make a person into a super star!
Nevertheless, bench shooting and optics have their places. Some people do silly things, and that's okay. As long as they are being safe and having fun, more power to them! (I did once see a guy at a gun store who was trying to figure out an option for mounting a very nice Leupold scope on his AK-47 knock-off).
jakemccoy
Member
You're shooting 600m to 800m without optics, and you're legally blind.
I can run a sub-4 minute mile, and I'm fat and out of shape.
I can run a sub-4 minute mile, and I'm fat and out of shape.
Ragnar Danneskjold
Member
I didn't read the whole thread, so there proll yisn't much I'm going to say that hans't been voiced.
Shooting from the bench is fine for sight in and zeroing, but I also do not get it as an actual type of recreational shooting. Doesn't seem like there's much challenge. And I personally like to keep things "realistic". I stand, kneel, crouch, and lay down. I don't bring a chair or stool cause I doubt I'll get to carry one along while I do house clearing in Iraq.
I do however take issue with the idea that optics are over hyped. Red dot sights on an AR increase reflexive shooting ability leaps and bounds. Of course one has to know how to shoot first, but adding red dots to an already good shooter makes him a great shooter. They really are all they're cracked up to be. They won't teach you to shoot. But they will make you a lot faster if you already know how. And being in the Army, I gear most of my recreational shooting towards combat-type shooting. And having an Eotech or Aimpoint is awesome. I learned on iron sights in Basic. But having access to red dots is far better. I wouldn't use the BUIS unless I had to. If the Army gives me an Aimpoint, which they do, I'm sure as hell gonna use it.
Shooting from the bench is fine for sight in and zeroing, but I also do not get it as an actual type of recreational shooting. Doesn't seem like there's much challenge. And I personally like to keep things "realistic". I stand, kneel, crouch, and lay down. I don't bring a chair or stool cause I doubt I'll get to carry one along while I do house clearing in Iraq.
I do however take issue with the idea that optics are over hyped. Red dot sights on an AR increase reflexive shooting ability leaps and bounds. Of course one has to know how to shoot first, but adding red dots to an already good shooter makes him a great shooter. They really are all they're cracked up to be. They won't teach you to shoot. But they will make you a lot faster if you already know how. And being in the Army, I gear most of my recreational shooting towards combat-type shooting. And having an Eotech or Aimpoint is awesome. I learned on iron sights in Basic. But having access to red dots is far better. I wouldn't use the BUIS unless I had to. If the Army gives me an Aimpoint, which they do, I'm sure as hell gonna use it.
cpttango30
Member
My belly is to big so when I lie down on the ground I teeter back and forth so I can't shoot that way. It is kind of hard to shoot when you are teetering back and forth like a weeble wobble.
jakemccoy
Member
Some people are out there shooting because they can, and they have no higher goal in mind. God bless them.
realmswalker
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I don't hunt nor do I plan to ever hunt, I shoot for fun, I honestly don't ever care if I become a marksman who can put a dime sized group on paper. I LOVE banging away on steel plates. When I shoot I like to be comfortable.
If i could shoot while laying in my hammock with a beer while getting a massage and watching the angel game, I would. Shooting is fun, who cares what position you are in.
If i could shoot while laying in my hammock with a beer while getting a massage and watching the angel game, I would. Shooting is fun, who cares what position you are in.
MythBuster
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Shooters have a choice. They can learn real world rifleman skills or they can sit on their lazy ass on a bench and never learn anything.
The choice is yours.
The choice is yours.
MythBuster
member
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"We were finishing up and bringing our targets in when the gentleman at the station next to us looked over and said-
"You guys are getting groups like that with iron sights at 200 yards?". I can't even get groups like that at 75 yards off the bench with a scope!"
And that as they say was PRICELESS!"
The only reason this guy could not shoot was because he never tried. He is still addicted to the bench. He has no idea what real shooting is.
The first step to becoming a rifleman is to forget the bench even exists.
"You guys are getting groups like that with iron sights at 200 yards?". I can't even get groups like that at 75 yards off the bench with a scope!"
And that as they say was PRICELESS!"
The only reason this guy could not shoot was because he never tried. He is still addicted to the bench. He has no idea what real shooting is.
The first step to becoming a rifleman is to forget the bench even exists.
Exposure
Member
Suuuuuurrrrrrrreeee, I bet that is exactly how that trip to the range happened, those guys that shoot from the bench sure are a bunch of rubes aren't they? I bet you were taking the wings off a fly from a standing position at 200 yards while that poor chump was making shotguns patterns with his ultra high dollar benchrest competition rifle at 75 yards.
I find a lot of the attitudes in this thread distressing to say the least.
Sadly it seems to be a trend here more and more. Elitism runs rampant on every website out there. But until recently I hadn't seen it here. Or maybe I hadn't noticed since I was away from the boards for quite a while.
Maybe no one should be allowed to shoot unless we all do it the same way. Wouldn't that be fun? If everyone leared how to shoot the real way we would all be so much better off.
Why the heck do so many of you care how someone else is shooting at the range? If they are having fun then who are you to criticize them for it? If people like to put a bunch of doodads on their rifles then let them. If people want to shoot from a rest, so what? How, in any way, does this offend you to the point that you need to publicly cry about it on an internet forum?
Go to the range and have fun, forget what the other guy is doing. Stop being a bunch of snobs and be glad that there are other people out there who share your interests and enthusiasm for firearms.
There are many millions of people who would gladly take away all of our guns if they could. Do we really need to act like this towards our fellow shooters?
R.W.Dale
Member
heck I have purpose built bench rifles and I have purpose built offhand guns. I like shooting both......BUT you'll probably never see me shoot both on the same day.
NEVER Judge someone by what you see ONCE
Don't think my sport is manly enough for your liking? That makes a finger other than the trigger one itchy
NEVER Judge someone by what you see ONCE
Don't think my sport is manly enough for your liking? That makes a finger other than the trigger one itchy
Poor East Texan
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Posting this at the bottom of page one....
Live and Let Live dude. Life is too short to get all pumped up about practically nothing!
Live and Let Live dude. Life is too short to get all pumped up about practically nothing!
Matt-J2
Member
I like to shoot all kinds of ways. From a bench, from a hasty rest(branch, arm, etc), sitting(ground, rock, chair), kneeling, standing(on both level and uneven terrain), laying in the grass with the spiders crawling on me...well, maybe not the bit about the spiders. At any rate, I like to shoot and I like folks who like to shoot, no matter the style.
Its all fun
Well, after reading everyone's post. All I can honestly say is that I do love shooting, in all its forms. Got a Ruger 10/22, I'll shoot it, got a 1911, I'll shoot it, got a crossbow...sure why not.
But I still do feel rather strongly about shooting. To me shooting off a bench is like Drag Car racing, its a great way to find out what works in terms of engines, components, etc under high stress idealized conditions (coming from someone who don't know anything about drag racing) but shooting from the unsupported prone, supported prone, kneeling, standing, on your back, from cover, is more akin to european/nascar racing.
I personally don't really see the need to remove the human element. The human element is the integral element. It is a well known fact that most weapons can outshoot their operators, but ergonomics (a component of the human element) sensitivity to recoil, and balance all affect the human that integral human element.
This is why some designs have gained greater acceptance while others have not. If the human element was removed almost every firearm would be reliable and accurate. But we humans, we "animals", develop technology to be used by us, we don't necessarily develop ourselves to use technology. Such attempts to force a human to conform to technology are often short lived. This is the same in the automotive industry, aerospace, etc
For example, I own many handguns but the one handgun I would bet my life on is the Sig Revolution TTT. Why? Because it suits me, I have fired it in nearly all conditions and it is accurate beyond all belief. When friends ask me to describe I say to them, "I could nail a gnat at 15 yards while drunk". My other handguns are probably just as accurate but not in my hands, not with the "human element". The human element is a big factor that should not be ignored.
Now I'm not taking a stab at anyone or trying to disrupt the shooting community, cause divisions. Occasionally I sit down and make sure its me or the rifle not hitting the target. Make no mistake shooting off hand is taxing, my weak forearms don't last that long and my groups slowly open up. It is definately challenging, but perhaps that is why I like it.
As I've said before, I love shooting "period", but am just ranting about bench shooting.
Well, after reading everyone's post. All I can honestly say is that I do love shooting, in all its forms. Got a Ruger 10/22, I'll shoot it, got a 1911, I'll shoot it, got a crossbow...sure why not.
But I still do feel rather strongly about shooting. To me shooting off a bench is like Drag Car racing, its a great way to find out what works in terms of engines, components, etc under high stress idealized conditions (coming from someone who don't know anything about drag racing) but shooting from the unsupported prone, supported prone, kneeling, standing, on your back, from cover, is more akin to european/nascar racing.
I personally don't really see the need to remove the human element. The human element is the integral element. It is a well known fact that most weapons can outshoot their operators, but ergonomics (a component of the human element) sensitivity to recoil, and balance all affect the human that integral human element.
This is why some designs have gained greater acceptance while others have not. If the human element was removed almost every firearm would be reliable and accurate. But we humans, we "animals", develop technology to be used by us, we don't necessarily develop ourselves to use technology. Such attempts to force a human to conform to technology are often short lived. This is the same in the automotive industry, aerospace, etc
For example, I own many handguns but the one handgun I would bet my life on is the Sig Revolution TTT. Why? Because it suits me, I have fired it in nearly all conditions and it is accurate beyond all belief. When friends ask me to describe I say to them, "I could nail a gnat at 15 yards while drunk". My other handguns are probably just as accurate but not in my hands, not with the "human element". The human element is a big factor that should not be ignored.
Now I'm not taking a stab at anyone or trying to disrupt the shooting community, cause divisions. Occasionally I sit down and make sure its me or the rifle not hitting the target. Make no mistake shooting off hand is taxing, my weak forearms don't last that long and my groups slowly open up. It is definately challenging, but perhaps that is why I like it.
As I've said before, I love shooting "period", but am just ranting about bench shooting.
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