Setup for reloading again after 30 years of reloading - From minimalist set up with unlimited budget

kalielkslayer said:
I’m not a “minimalist” maybe there is a term that more accurately describes someone whose using a MEC 600 Jr bought in the late 70s, an RCBS Rockchucker bout in the late 80s. A Dillion 550c bought 3 years ago.

It all works well for me. I’ve found the longevity of every piece of reloading equipment I’ve ever purchased far exceeds the longevity of any automobile I’ve purchased. This from a guy whose still driving a 2000 7.3 diesel with 550,000 miles on it.
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Frugal comes to mind :thumbdown:
 
I would not call it a minimalist setup, but more of a something that will last, preform for decades. My dad grew up during the depression, he taught me and by brothers the value of the dollar. With that came how to get the most out of your buck. Some times it's requires spending more to get something that will fill the need. AP is one type of press that fills the need for volume in less time. If your old and have aching bones (arthritis) , the less wear and tear helps. I only have a 1 SS and 1 AP press, they do everything I need to do. I rather spend my money on supplies and guns to shoot more.
 
LiveLife said:
with reflective reloading experience of 30 years, my selection criteria will be less "DIY" and more "off the shelf"
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I wished I would have had the benefit of this kind of experience back when I started. I think the subjects being covered in this thread can be a great help to folks getting started who need good fundamental equipment that will work well until they are ready to upgrade

I'm not unhappy with most of the choices I've made as to equipment...with the occasional "want" over riding the "need" and then later having wished I had waited.

I'm glad I started with a Hornady LNL progressive instead of a Lee Loadmaster; it is just easier to understand and tune. But I wouldn't be too hesitant today to recommend the Lee Pro 6k; although I'm finding access to the shell plate a bit tight
 
Blue68f100 said:
I would not call it a minimalist setup, but more of a something that will last, preform for decades. My dad grew up during the depression, he taught me and by brothers the value of the dollar. With that came how to get the most out of your buck. Some times it's requires spending more to get something that will fill the need. AP is one type of press that fills the need for volume in less time. If your old and have aching bones (arthritis) , the less wear and tear helps. I only have a 1 SS and 1 AP press, they do everything I need to do. I rather spend my money on supplies and guns to shoot more.
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Borrowing cfullgraf's repeated observation, I doesn't really matter what color your press is, as much as how well you learn it, or what your individual needs are. I chose two RCBS progressives for particular needs personal to me, just as you did the same with the Hornady AP. What you said about old bones is also true about old brains, depreciating patience, and getting tired and bored faster than one used to.

After 40 years of doing this on a Rock Chucker, depreciating patience, and old bones went looking for a faster way with less press strokes. But there's a problem with speed and progressives. Too much goes on at the same time that you have to watch over. I didn't think I needed collators and feeders......I was wrong. The automatic collators/feeders means being able to focus more on what's important......primers, and powder charge. But that can get expensive....especially with bullet feeders.

So in a variation of your "requires spending more" I spent more on a good 3d printer. ;) Best decision I ever made in the hobby. Now I have collators and feeders galore for two progressives and two single stage presses even. Wear and tear went way down, and so did the never ending expense of collators and feeders.
 
Measuring Tools and Standards Selection:

While I already had these (Just ordered the Troemner set which is made in USA), they are essential to any type of reloading, from loading casual general purpose range blasting ammo to precision match loads: (Thinking about getting OIML Class F1 certified check weight set which is comparable to ASTM Class 3 ... I know, really not necessary for "minimalist" reloading setup)

UPDATE: Reloading setup cost total:
  1. Bench - Portable castered adjustable bench ~ $200
  2. Scale - GEM-20 digital scale $22 (Sensitivity/detection test pending)
  3. Calipers/Standards - Measuring tools, check weights and pin gages ~$100
 
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Reloading Bench Selection continued - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...p-with-unlimited-budget.912629/#post-12464982
LiveLife said:
minimalist set up ... more basic and portable ... selection criteria will be less "DIY" and more "off the shelf"

I decided on using Home Depot Husky 52" castered bench with height adjustable top for both stand up and sit down reloading (This also eliminates the use of raised press mount for comfortable ram lever operation)
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Our retirement house has 5'3" wide hallway and I went with 52" long bench (If you have narrower hallways, you may want to consider shorter 46" bench).

Restarting with reloading set up while remodeling my reloading "corner", I opted for bench without 1 or 2 drawers because the drawers would hit my legs when reloading/bench use sitting down (I could elevate the bench top but since I have the Husky rollaway seen on the right, I decided to keep the bench simple with "minimalist" set up in mind for those just starting out reloading).

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Wooden top is 1 1/8" thick with bench top height adjusted with a removable crank for sit down to stand up reloading/bench use. I haven't decided on the exact mounting option/placement for Dillon 550/Lee SPP.

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Good thing is one of several dog beds (We have 4 dogs) that is elevated fits over the bottom bar between the legs (Almost custom fit) and I can move the bench forwards/backwards without moving the dog bed.

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100 lb Charity testing the bed and Faith soon followed and both approved the bed placement (They will keep my feet warm during winter months)

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UPDATE: Reloading setup cost total:
  1. Bench - Portable castered adjustable bench ~ $200
  2. Scale - GEM-20 digital scale $22 (Sensitivity/detection test pending)
  3. Check weight set - Troemner NIST Class F $18 (Comparable to ASTM Class 6)
  4. Calipers/Standards - Measuring tools, check weights and pin gages ~$100
 

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Measuring Tools and Standards Selection continued - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-unlimited-budget.912629/page-2#post-12465906

Scale Selection continued - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...p-with-unlimited-budget.912629/#post-12465451
LiveLife said:
Just ordered the Troemner set which is made in USA

... just ordered GEM-20 digital scale
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Received Troemner check weight set and GEM-20 digital scale.

Made in USA NIST Class F (Comparable to ASTM Class 6) Troemner set came with 50 gr, 20x2 gr, 10 gr, 5 gr, 3 gr, 2 gr, 1 gr and 0.5 gr weights.

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Decided to compare GEM-20 with WAOAW digital scale (which repeatedly verified my Ohaus ASTM Class 6 check weights). Why the flat washers? (More on that later)

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WAOAW digital scale gave following readings:
  • 50 gr - 50.0 gr
  • 20 gr - 20.0 gr
  • 10 gr - 10.1 gr
  • 5 gr - 5.0 gr
  • 3 gr - 3.0 gr
  • 2 gr - 2.1 gr
  • 1 gr - 1.0 gr
  • 0.5 gr - 0.5 gr
"Houston, we have a problem" ... But when I calibrated the GEM-20 scale and tested with Troemner check weights, readings were heavier for all weights. After calibrating the GEM-20 scale again and getting heavier readings for Troemner check weights, I weighed the two "10 gram" calibration weights on the WAOAW scale and they read 9.987 and 9.986 grams. (.014 grams is more than .2 grains) :eek:

So I took out some flat washers and found two sets of three washers to weigh exactly 10.0 grams on WAOAW scale to use as calibration weights and recalibrated the GEM-20 scale then tested the Troemner check weights (Even changed included batteries with fresh Energizer AAA batteries). Readings were better but still heavier so the GEM-20 scale is going back with notation that supplied calibration weights are lighter than 10 grams at 9.987 and 9.986 grams to not verify check weights reliably.

UPDATE: Reloading setup cost total:
  1. Bench - Portable castered adjustable bench ~ $200
  2. Scale - GEM-20 digital scale $22 (Being exchanged ETA 12/1, Sensitivity/detection test pending)
  3. Check weight set - Troemner NIST Class F $18 (Comparable to ASTM Class 6)
  4. Calipers/Standards - Measuring tools, check weights and pin gages ~$100
 

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LiveLife said:
I haven't decided on the exact mounting option/placement for Dillon 550/Lee SPP.
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While it might not be minimalistic, Inline Fabrications’ QC mounting plate is pretty nice for swapping presses. I don’t have a lot of room and switched to the base plate plus adapters for my presses. Just a thought. Oh, and, it might still be on BF sale.
 
"Houston, we have a problem" Part 2:

Scale Selection continued - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-unlimited-budget.912629/page-2#post-12474184

Received the replacement GEM-20 scale but experiencing the same issue of calibration weights being too light. At least two weights weighed the same at 9.984 grams but they are even lighter than 9.987/9.986 grams of other calibration weights (calibration weights weighed on WAOAW scale verified by Troemner check weights).

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Using the two lighter 9.984 gram weights, I calibrated the GEM-20 and scale read "Pass" but got the following readings: (Troemner check weights - WAOAW scale readings - New GEM-20 readings)
  • 50 gr - 50.0 gr - 50.12 gr
  • 20 gr - 20.0 gr - 20.06 gr
  • 10 gr - 10.1 gr - 10.08 gr
  • 5 gr - 5.0 gr - 4.98 gr
  • 3 gr - 3.0 gr - 2.96 gr
  • 2 gr - 2.0 gr - 2.20 gr
  • 1 gr - 1.0 gr - 0.94 gr (Zero drift of -0.12 gr and Tare )
  • 0.5 gr - 0.5 gr - 0.5 gr
Then using the two sets of "washer calibration weights" of 10 grams I made for the last post, I calibrated the new scale and got following readings which were better: (Troemner check weights - GEM-20 initial readings - GEM-20 new readings)
  • 50 gr - 50.12 gr - 50.02 gr
  • 20 gr - 20.06 gr - 20.06 gr
  • 10 gr - 10.08 gr - 10.12 gr
  • 5 gr - 4.98 gr - 5.02 gr
  • 3 gr - 2.96 gr - 3.02 gr
  • 2 gr - 2.0 gr - 2.08 gr
  • 1 gr - 0.94 gr - 1.04 gr
  • 0.5 gr - 0.50 gr - 0.52 gr

Conclusion: I CANNOT recommend GEM-20 digital scale made by Smart Weigh for reloading as typical reloaders would have difficult time making exact 10 gram weights for calibrating the scale at home. I am returning both GEM-20 scales for refund.

Am I being too OCD spoiled by Gemini-20 and WAOAW digital scales that consistently verify Ohaus ASTM Class 6 check weights down to 5 mg/.08 grain?

I found an updated Gemini-20 digital scale made by American Weigh Scales that has flat weighing platform for $39 so I will order that scale next to test - https://www.amazon.com/American-Weigh-Gemini-20-Black/dp/B077KC8D8Y

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LiveLife said:
Am I being too OCD spoiled by Gemini-20 and WAOAW digital scales that consistently verify Ohaus ASTM Class 6 check weights down to 5 mg/.08 grain?
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All depends on what the stated accuracy of the scale is. I had to return a calibration check weight that was out of tolerance. I would have not know if I didn't have a means to check them. If your standards are off the calibration will be off. By chance does it offer a 2 point calibration or just the 1 point?
 
LiveLife said:
Measuring Tools and Standards Selection:

While I already had these (Just ordered the Troemner set which is made in USA), they are essential to any type of reloading, from loading casual general purpose range blasting ammo to precision match loads: (Thinking about getting OIML Class F1 certified check weight set which is comparable to ASTM Class 3 ... I know, really not necessary for "minimalist" reloading setup)

UPDATE: Reloading setup cost total:
  1. Bench - Portable castered adjustable bench ~ $200
  2. Scale - GEM-20 digital scale $22 (Sensitivity/detection test pending)
  3. Calipers/Standards - Measuring tools, check weights and pin gages ~$100
Click to expand...
Check weights are an interesting discussion as I prefer two high quality references one about 5 grains and one 20grains for two point on pistol. For rifle a 20 and 100grain would be dandy. Guage pins are so cheap I can't imagine a money excuse not to have one or two. Basically I find them mostly best used as a training aid to learn proper use of a caliper. Keep measuring till you are consistent.
 
AJC1 said:
Well one definitely doesn't need a pile of stuff and at my house I don't have very much. One might be able to do it for less money but d doubt it. I probably have more money in molds than gear or close to it. It really doesn't take much.
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Well, first you need a used bar stool…. :rofl:
 
Scale Selection continued - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-unlimited-budget.912629/page-2#post-12478138

Blue68f100 said:
LiveLife said:
Am I being too OCD spoiled by Gemini-20 and WAOAW digital scales that consistently verify Ohaus ASTM Class 6 check weights down to 5 mg/.08 grain?
Click to expand...
All depends on what the stated accuracy of the scale is. I had to return a calibration check weight that was out of tolerance. I would have not know if I didn't have a means to check them.
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While many of these compact digital scales are advertised with 0.001 gram accuracy (1 mg/0.015 grain), many users comment more typical detection/sensitivity of 10 mg (0.15 grain) or heavier with not being able to verify check weights exactly.

For me, digital scales that can repeatedly verify down to 5 mg (.08 gr) check weights are good enough for reloading as they have higher resolution than .1 gr most beam scales reloaders trusted and used for decades.

In comparison, these are what my scales are able to repeatedly verify:
  • Ohaus 10-10 detection to <.1 gr, verify check weights
  • RCBS 5-0-5 detection to .1 gr, verify check weights
  • Dillon Eliminator detection to .1 gr, verify check weights
  • Lee Safety detection to <.1 gr, verify check weights
  • WAOAW detection to .08 gr, verify check weights (Used to be .06 gr when new)
  • Gemini-20 by AWS detection to .06 gr, verify check weights (Used to be .04 gr when new)
  • Vevor analytical/lab detection to .08 gr, verify check weights (Able to resolve single kernel of Varget above 5 mg or 4 kernels)
  • Creedmoor Sports TRX-925 detection to .05 gr, verify check weights (Able to resolve single granule of Promo but due to auto-zero, requires minimum of 3 mg weight in pan or 7 granules of Promo)
So I am used to scales verifying check weights exactly and cannot tolerate calibration weights being off by 16 mg (0.25 grain).

Blue68f100 said:
If your standards are off the calibration will be off.
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Precisely.

Hopefully the new Gemini-20 from AWS with flat weighing platform will be like the Gemini-20 with small platform I already have with detection down to 4 mg (.06 grain). That scale has been amazing with very sensitive detection and repeatable verification of different sets of check weights I have.

Blue68f100 said:
By chance does it offer a 2 point calibration or just the 1 point?
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Calibration instructs to place 10 gram weight then second 10 gram weight.
 
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Ive tried the fake zero method on electric scales with decent success. After zeroing set a small even number checkweight on the scale plate next to the pan and leave it there during a loading session.
 
South Prairie Jim said:
Ive tried the fake zero method on electric scales with decent success. After zeroing set a small even number checkweight on the scale plate next to the pan and leave it there during a loading session.
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I’m not familiar with the fake zero method. The way I read this was: zero the scale. Put a small weight, say 20 grains, on the plate, so now the scale would read 20 grains. I’m missing something…. Every time you want to weigh something you need to subtract the 20 grains. I also use the tare function quite a bit. Is the idea to move the zero to a different spot in the weight curve?
 
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lordpaxman said:
I’m not familiar with the fake zero method. The way I read this was: zero the scale. Put a small weight, say 20 grains, on the plate, so now the scale would read 20 grains. I’m missing something…. Every time you want to weigh something you need to subtract the 20 grains. I also use the tare function quite a bit. Is the idea to move the zero to a different spot in the weight curve?
Click to expand...
Close but you’ll still use your scale Pan along side the check weight to put powder in, example using a fake zero is each time you remove the powder pan the scale returns to the check weight number. I can post a picture of how it looks shortly.
 
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lordpaxman said:
South Prairie Jim said:
Ive tried the fake zero method on electric scales with decent success. After zeroing set a small even number checkweight on the scale plate next to the pan and leave it there during a loading session.
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I’m not familiar with the fake zero method.
Click to expand...
Fake zero is placing a heavier weight then tare the scale to weigh smaller weight that scale cannot detect.

While I have seen many members post this when their digital scales would not detect small weights to place a heavier weight and I too have tested this with some success but my suspicion is likely scale resolution/detection/auto zero kicking in.

If you are using small digital scale (Remember we are starting out with "minimalist" set up expressed in the OP?) with weighing platform that will be covered entirely by the powder pan, flat washer placed on the weighing platform could work.

But this is not my style. I prefer to use digital scales that can verify check weights down to .1 gr (.08 or .06 gr preferred).
 
LiveLife said:
Fake zero is placing a heavier weight then tare the scale to weigh smaller weight that scale cannot detect.

While I have seen many members post this when their digital scales would not detect small weights to place a heavier weight and I too have tested this with some success but my suspicion is likely scale resolution/detection/auto zero kicking in.

If you are using small digital scale (Remember we are starting out with "minimalist" set up expressed in the OP?) with weighing platform that will be covered entirely by the powder pan, flat washer placed on the weighing platform could work.

But this is not my style. I prefer to use digital scales that can verify check weights down to .1 gr (.08 or .06 gr preferred).
Click to expand...

Yes that’s true but you also said an unlimited budget, either way I only mentioned it because I thought it may be relevant. I’ve only dabbled in the method being somewhat of a minimalist myself choosing a tuned beam scale over electric counterpart used while mainly weighing primers.
Sorry for the derail
 
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South Prairie Jim said:
you also said an unlimited budget
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That's where Creedmoor Sports TRX-925 comes in to play - https://www.creedmoorsports.com/pro...cale-trx-925-precision/creedmoor_sports_brand

South Prairie Jim said:
I only mentioned it because I thought it may be relevant. I’ve only dabbled in the method being somewhat of a minimalist myself choosing a tuned beam scale over electric counterpart used while mainly weighing primers. Sorry for the derail
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Actually it's good that you mentioned it because for the "minimalist" set up or those just starting out reloading with limited budget, if they have digital scales that won't allow them to trickle small enough powder charges, they may do so with a heavier weight in the pan.
 
LiveLife said:
Reloading Bench Selection (For both stand up and sit down reloading):

After using 2'x6' and 2'x8' heavy castered benches built from 2x4s and 4x4s for garage that were heavy duty enough to hold engine blocks for reloading during early years (And dying in summer heat of 105F+ and freezing in the winter), I built smaller 2'x3' and 2'x2' portable benchs to reload anywhere in or around the house in the comfort of air conditioning and heating.

Since the 2'x3' portable bench using Harbor Freight furniture dolly casters worked out so well (I was able to resize even thicker military .308 brass on empty bench with presses mounted at the ends to go through doorways), I decided on using Home Depot Husky 52" castered bench with height adjustable top for both stand up and sit down reloading (This also eliminates the use of raised press mount for comfortable ram lever operation).

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It is currently $189 and comes in black or white color to match your reloading room/home decor but I chose to go with black as my reloading room already hosts black 5' tall Husky tool chest and black 6' wire shelving unit - https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-52-in-Adjustable-Height-Work-Table-in-White-HOLT52XDBJ2/312063227

There is also one or two drawer bench option but I opted for no drawer bench as I mainly plan on doing sit-down reloading and drawers would hit my legs. One drawer bench is currently $209 - https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-5...Wood-Top-in-Gloss-Black-HOLT5201B11/317302932

Also comes in shorter 46" width and currently two drawer bench is $198 - https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-4...with-2-Drawers-in-White-HOLT4602BJ2/312063246

So for around $200, you can start out with a portable castered bench that is heavy/solid enough to resize rifle cartridges standing up or sitting down with the option of moving it around the house.

Reloading setup cost total:
  • Portable castered adjustable bench ~ $200

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I use that same table from HD for my game processing station! The ability to crank it up to work on stuff is fantastic.
 
Measuring Tools and Standards Selection:

Update: Because I was not able to resolve calibration weights being off for replacement AWS Gemini-20, I decided to abandon recommending Gemini-20 for reloading. I ordered a WAOAW copy in green color and guess what? Same issue with calibration weights being off so I can't recommend that for reloading as well. (While I have accurate beam/digital scales and check weights to allow me to produce exact calibration weights to properly calibrate these scales, to reloaders lacking resources to produce exact calibration weights, these scales are essentially useless even though they are accurate ONCE properly calibrated. No accurate calibration weights, no accurate scale)

So for digital scale selection for me, it's going to be Creedmoor Sports TRX-925 (BTW, price dropped from $350 to $300) - https://www.creedmoorsports.com/pro...cale-trx-925-precision/creedmoor_sports_brand

FYI, Made in USA Troemner set has been replaced from 50 gr to 200 gr with ASTM Class 6 check weights but now costs more at $28 - https://www.amazon.com/Class-Test-Weight-Certificate-Weights/dp/B078H9VQ5Z?th=1

UPDATE: Reloading setup cost total:
  1. Bench - Home Depot Husky portable castered adjustable bench $250
  2. Scale - Creedmoor Sports TRX-925 $300
  3. Check weight set - Troemner 200 gr to 0.5 gr ASTM Class 6 $28
  4. Calipers/Standards - Measuring tools, check weights and pin gages ~$100
 
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Brass tumbler selection:

I have happily been using Cabela's vibratory tumbler (Same as Berry's 400) for over a decade and would recommend it for large capacity (1000 9mm/600 .223 cases but I usually run 600-800 9mm cases for faster cleaning/polishing) and fast vibratory action to clean mixed range brass in about 20-30 minutes for reloading.

But when my sister/BIL wanted to reload, I PIF the Lee ABLP/Pro 4000 kit and the vibratory tumbler went to them as well all the way to Texas. Since, I have been wanting to buy the Frankford Arsenal Rotary Tumbler (FART) with 1000 .223 case capacity for wet tumbling and earlier this week, Amazon offered the $175 FART for $133 and I had it ordered within a minute.

FART arrived today and for the initial test, I filled it half way with the dirtiest .223 and 9mm brass I had and ran the tumbler with a squeeze of Dawn and lemon juice WITHOUT stainless steel pins. (I do not need inside of case to be polished for my reloading/shooting purposes even though I am getting ready to do load development with RMR 69/75 gr BTHP and freshly built 20" .223 Wylde fluted barrel AR) I did sort .223 brass by headstamp and chose to go with R-P brass. Both .223 and 9mm cases were deprimed using Lee Universal Depriming Die prior to tumbling.

After an hour, to my surprise, these were how the .223/9mm brass looked (Sample of dirty brass in the black bowl) and I am definitely sold on wet tumbling. (Since we have a well, I will be air drying the waste water in the pole barn to discard dried solid in the regular trash)

FART1.jpg

UPDATE: Reloading setup cost total:
  1. Bench - Home Depot Husky portable castered adjustable bench $250
  2. Scale - Creedmoor Sports TRX-925 $300
  3. Check weight set - Troemner 200 gr to 0.5 gr ASTM Class 6 $28
  4. Calipers/Standards - Measuring tools, check weights and pin gages ~$100
  5. Brass tumbler - Frankford Arsenal Rotary Tumbler $175
 
Yeah, the first batch for me was miraculous! I have a big Lyman and a Berrys dry vib. tumbler, that, since I bought my Thumblers's tumbler, just sit idle. I use pins because that's how I was taught, and I'm am too used to the new brass result, that I doubt I'll change. People talk about the extra work envolved.....and I just shake my head. Where's the work in rinsing the brass once and setting it out to dry in the sun. I have lots of other things to do reloading wise to keep myself entertained while it dries. Beats the hell out of listening to a vibrator all day.....especially when you don't really have a good place to hide the noise. The older you get the more you will appreciate bling. My 9mm old eyes invigorators below.....:)

9mm-Bling.jpg
 
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Brass tumbler selection (Continued):

While I have been very happy with Frankford Arsenal Wet Tumbler (I have wet tumbled several thousand 9mm/40S&W/.223/5.56 brass and have several 5 gallon buckets of dirty brass), 2018 version Pro 1000 new in box kit that was "Pay it Forward" to elderly lifelong hunter who has been reloading on several single stage press (Who BTW has been ecstatic reloading so much faster 9mm/.38Spl/.357Mag/45ACP) returned PIF a ultrasonic cleaner, Branson 1510 (See, what goes around do come around :)).

I used ultrasonic cleaner as medic in the Army and when I worked in OR (Operating Room) in my 20s and have been pondering cleaning possibilities not just reloading related tools but other dirty/rusty tools as well.

I am sure I could come up with several reasons to spot clean some reloading brass, especially .223/5.56 brass. 😁

BransonUS1510.jpg

UPDATE: Reloading setup cost total:
  1. Bench - Home Depot Husky portable castered adjustable bench $250
  2. Scale - Creedmoor Sports TRX-925 $350
  3. Check weight set - Troemner 200 gr to 0.5 gr ASTM Class 6 $28
  4. Calipers/Standards - Measuring tools, check weights and pin gages ~$100
  5. Brass tumbler - Frankford Arsenal Rotary Tumbler $175, Branson ultrasonic cleaner $PIF
 
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