At last....A double stack Kahr Arms.

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There is a guy jocko on the Kahr forum that has “a pm9 with over 40,000 rounds through it and runs much better than an illegal trying to cross the border.” I think his pm9 has the longer New York trigger. The only Kahr I’ve shot is the K9. I think one of the changes will be rail. I personally don’t want one.
 
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This last weekend I picked up a new CW45 from my FFL and was pleasantly surprised to find that for the first time in my Kahr owning experience, it actually functioned out of the box. I know, a high bar to clear. I swapped out the mag spring for a 1911 spring so the mag holds 7 now instead of 6, and I sectioned the trigger bar and welded pretravel and over travel stops on the sear and trigger shoe just like I did on my P40. It will cycle a full magazine of empty cases which I don’t think any pistol I’ve ever owed would do.
 
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I bought a Kahr CM9 and I followed all the instructions that Jocko on KahrTalk recommended for "Proper Prep" of a new Kahr:

http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?1521-Proper-prep-of-a-new-kahr&highlight=break

I manually cycled the slide 500 times (probably more than Jocko was thinking). Not only did I use 250 rounds of FMJ - I used hotter ammo, I stayed away from the anemic 115gr stuff and used 124 "NATO" instead. When I say NATO - I mean 124gr FMJ rated at or near 1200 fps from a 5" barrel. Fifty rounds of the Winchester Ranger RA9124N (NATO) and 200 rounds of the Georgia Arms 124gr "NATO" That is a little hotter than the average and quite a bit hotter than the rather anemic 124gr Blazzer Brass rated at 1090 fps. I considered those 250 rounds the "Break In" rounds.

I don't know if doing all that stuff really helped but I haven't had any problems my CM9, no failure to feed, fire, eject or return fully to battery.
 
One thing I can mention on the PM9/CM9. From new to about 1100 rounds with various FMJ and JHP it (PM9) ran without flaw. Then I had two fail to feed of 115 grain gold dots from a single magazine. I talked to Kahr about it and they recommended replacing the outer recoil spring between 1000-1500 round as insurance. When I received my new spring it was much tighter than the old one. At the time I decided to stick with 124 gain anyway and it has run without flaw since, 1500+ rounds.
 
Back in the late 90's when I bought my K9 stainless, Kahr was recommending recoil spring replacement every 1000-1200 rounds due to how hard micro pistols are on springs.
I don't know if they still have a recommendation, but new Kahr factory springs are cheap.

I don't recommend installing any "extra power" springs. These tiny guns are operating right on the edge of what's possible, and they are not forgiving of playing with springs like you can get away with in full size pistols.
 
dfariswheel said:
but new Kahr factory springs are cheap.
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I have a fair stash of them in my kit... cheap insurance. I know there is a factory recommended interval, but I change mine (CW9's as well as my CM/PM9's...) about every 500 rounds.

someguy2800 said:
I swapped out the mag spring for a 1911 spring so the mag holds 7 now instead of 6
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Be aware, one of the problems I had with my .45 Kahrs was the magazine splitting the weld at the top. Once that weld breaks, the feed lips spread, and you get feeding problems.
 
At this point, I hope that Kahr didn't tip their hand too soon. Remember what happened to Hudson? They announced the aluminum version before they were ready to ship. So, everyone who was getting ready to buy a Hudson held off for the new model and sales of existing model cratered. The company went bankrupt.
 
The PM9 was my first CC firearm. I had a mild "fluff & buff" reliability package done by Cylinder & Slide and it has been completely reliable and accurate (for its size) since I have owned it. As I have gotten older (eyes/hands) I have moved towards larger with optics (SA Hellcat Pro with Holosun) but still carry the PM9 occasionally. The tritium night sights have finally faded so no glow at night but I will probably replace them with something a bit larger like XS dot sight
 
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There's nothing wrong with the Kahr trigger. It's great as is. It doesn't need to be touched. A 6lb smooth DAO trigger is something some pay hundreds of dollars in aftermarket parts, polishing, and/or to gunsmiths to achieve.

I EDC a Kahr K40. The Kahr steel frames are only 22-24 ounces, but to hear others tell and describe it as being to heavy for them to carry, you'd thing they were way over 30 ounces! The MK9 is only 2-3oz more than a M&P Shield. The M&P Shield 45 is basically the same weight as the Kahr K9. The K series Kahrs weigh less than or about the same as steel frame J frames, small 1911s with an aluminum frame, a K frame revolver, Colt Cobras, Kimber K6s, aluminum frame CZ, most double stack subcompacts, so on and so forth.. A Glock 48 is almost 21oz, and then people throw optics, lights, laser, or other stuff on them which adds several more onces. Yet when the topic of steel framed forced from bar stock Kahr steel pistols come up, all of a sudden they're deemed to heavy for most to carry?

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Rule3 said:
I still do not understand the whole craze for mini pocket 9mms and then they want add double stack, extended mags, optics , lasers etc??
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Amen... makes ZERO logical sense
 
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If it were up to some people, all that would exist and be an option would be striker fired micro 9mm and double stacks. They bash everything else from 1911s, revolvers, and DAO, and even DA/SA guns using the excuse that companies should make more striker fired pistols because they sell more.

Kahr double stacks aren't going to sell well. That market is already saturated. Changing the Kahr trigger to be yet another striker fired trigger with a dingous just like all the millions of others isn't going to increase Kahr's sales either. It would just be more of the same, and I doubt all the people who bash Kahr because they don't have the know how to shoot even a great DAO trigger well, because they do not have the wherewithal or skill, STILL wouldn't choose Kahr over the other alternatives. The only people who would be interested are the same people who are currently interested in Kahr DAO single stacks.

Kahr doesn't need to change the DAO trigger. The trigger is already phenomenal. If someone can not do well with it, it's a training and skill issue on their part that they're trying to blame the "long" trigger for. I own all type of triggers, nearly 100 firearms, and I've yet to come across a modern stock trigger that I couldn't shoot well. Different or non competition/target like aka short and light doesn't equate to being a bad trigger. SAO, DA/SA, and striker-fired trigger stock and aftermarket are all their place, pros and cons. One isn't necessarily better than the other. Anyone who is use to shooting revolvers and DA/SA handguns love and know how great the Kahr trigger is, and they generally can shoot and appreciate any type of trigger. Those who are primarily familiar with polymer Glock like handguns are the ones who take issue.

What Kahr needs to do is to refine and update what they already have with new designs and a new look. They need to update the look of their steel framed guns, add more calibers like 45acp and 10mm. They also need to adjust their price point to be more competitive. They should also add double stacks and even aluminum frame options to their metal frame guns. Their single stacks should become staggered stacks at the grip while keeping the same slide dimensions for backwards compatibility in the aftermarket. They should stick to filling the nitch that they're known for, but add more modern features. Basically what Glock, CZ with their 75 line, and Beretta with their 92 line have done for decades.
 
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^^^agree^^^ I could see Kahr going to a double stack in their T9-Line of pistols but not in the K9 line of pistols.
 
My P380 made it through about 150 rounds before it started having every problem under the sun, and four return trips to the factory for warranty service failed to restore the gun to proper working condition.
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Hmmm my P380 wasn't happy until it had about 100rnds thru it.
(the manual did mention something about that)

Kahr trigger is not bad IMO, more like a revolver trigger.
But if I want to be picky I could say all the triggers on all other semi auto pistols are less than perfect compared to my 1911s..;)
 
Styx said:
If it were up to some people, all that would exist and be an option would be striker fired micro 9mm and double stacks. They bash everything else from 1911s, revolvers, and DAO, and even DA/SA guns using the excuse that companies should make more striker fired pistols because they sell more.

Kahr double stacks aren't going to sell well. That market is already saturated. Changing the Kahr trigger to be yet another striker fired trigger with a dingous just like all the millions of others isn't going to increase Kahr's sales either. It would just be more of the same, and I doubt all the people who bash Kahr because they don't have the know how to shoot even a great DAO trigger well, because they do not have the wherewithal or skill, STILL wouldn't choose Kahr over the other alternatives. The only people who would be interested are the same people who are currently interested in Kahr DAO single stacks.

Kahr doesn't need to change the DAO trigger. The trigger is already phenomenal. If someone can not do well with it, it's a training and skill issue on their part that they're trying to blame the "long" trigger for. I own all type of triggers, nearly 100 firearms, and I've yet to come across a modern stock trigger that I couldn't shoot well. Different or non competition/target like aka short and light doesn't equate to being a bad trigger. SAO, DA/SA, and striker-fired trigger stock and aftermarket are all their place, pros and cons. One isn't necessarily better than the other. Anyone who is use to shooting revolvers and DA/SA handguns love and know how great the Kahr trigger is, and they generally can shoot and appreciate any type of trigger. Those who are primarily familiar with polymer Glock like handguns are the ones who take issue.

What Kahr needs to do is to refine and update what they already have with new designs and a new look. They need to update the look of their steel framed guns, add more calibers like 45acp and 10mm. They also need to adjust their price point to be more competitive. They should also add double stacks and even aluminum frame options to their metal frame guns. Their single stacks should become staggered stacks at the grip while keeping the same slide dimensions for backwards compatibility in the aftermarket. They should stick to filling the nitch that they're known for, but add more modern features. Basically what Glock, CZ with their 75 line, and Beretta with their 92 line have done for decades.
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I wonder if they will shorten the trigger pull just a little bit. I think that would sell. I happen to think the trigger is perfect as is.
 
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I am always interested in anything that Kahr puts out. I have been carrying my PM9 for 15 years now whenever I need a subcompact. I think they have one of the best triggers out there.
 
Doorstopper said:
I wonder if they will shorten the trigger pull just a little bit. I think that would sell. I happen to think the trigger is perfect as is.
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The long smooth 6lb DA trigger is why people buy Kahrs. I'm not sure if the striker fired pistol crowd are going to abandon their M&Ps, Sigs, HKs, Springfields, Glocks, CZ's, etc for a comparable Kahr clone that has the same features and trigger, and the funny thing about that is the those are the same people who are bashing Kahr's trigger because they have issues shooting DA/SA and DAO handguns. If Kahr makes pistol that's basically a clone trigger and all to the P365, Shield, Hellcat, Gx4, and Max 9, I STILL don't see them picking up many market shares. I like Kahr, but even I would rather buy the Sig, S&W, Springfield Arms, etc version than to buy the Kahr version for the same money. NIB Kahrs aren't aren't typical budget priced... They cost just as much as Glocks, Sigs, M&Ps, etc.

There are a demographic of gun owners who believe that all triggers should be short and light striker triggers, and everything else is a TERRIBLE trigger that they'll complain about. They'll even bash hanguns they wouldn't buy and aren't really interested in one way or another even if they had a striker fire trigger for no other reason than they believe it should have one.
 
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The Kahr trigger makes sense when you consider why it was designed that way.

At that time cops were carrying DA revolvers and Justin Moon wanted to sell them a tiny auto not much bigger then the typical .380 auto, only in a design that could shoot 9mm+P ammo, AND have a trigger that felt like a good S&W revolver trigger.
As an added plus, like a DA revolver it would be perfectly safe to carry even without a holster as some cops did.
It would have no external manual safety and would be used like the revolvers the cops were already totally familiar with so there would not be a lot of training needed to run it.

The trigger IS the Kahr selling point. Wanting a shorter Glock-like trigger would be like wanting a Glock trigger in a DA revolver.
Unlike many of the newer autos, the Kahr can only be fired by a deliberate long trigger pull.
This puts paid to the old excuse..."We were fighting and the gun just went off". No, someone had to make that deliberate long relatively heavy trigger pull.
 
I have had four Kahrs.
One PM9, bought used in probably 2005; had the "barrel peening" issue. I sent the top half to Kahr and they replaced the entire slide/barrel/recoil spring assembly. I've been EDCing it ever since (with an occasion side trip trying other handguns). Still have it, still carry it.

One P45, bought about a year after the PM9. Only about 2 oz heavier than the PM9, but the weight of the ammo is double. Carried it for a while but kept coming back to the PM9. Still have it, keep it as a nightstand gun.

One PM45, was supposed to bridge the gap between the PM9 and the P45, but it wasn't "enough" smaller than the P45;-sold it.

One CW380; was a much nicer shooting pistol than my LCP, but I have never gotten enthusiastic about .380s except as "a gun to carry when you can't carry a gun". Gave the CW380 to the wife of a friend when we figured out she shot it better than anything else, and could conceal it easily (also pocket carry). Still have the LCP, but carry it about 2x/year.

All this by way of saying, I am a fan of the Kahr product line. I find the trigger much more shoot-able than Glocks, XDs, LCPs and the like (all of which I have owned), and reminiscent of the Para LDA trigger (of which I have also owned several).

And yes, I also own, shoot and enjoy S&W revolvers, so again, the Kahr trigger translates nicely. But I also own, shoot and and enjoy 1911s, so I think that I can appreciate different trigger types.

Okay, as far a double-stack Kahrs go, I don't think I will be tempted, mostly because the Kahr niche (for me) is pocket carry.

I don't see how Kahr can make a double stack that weighs as little as the PM9 (about 14 oz). Hellcats, P365s and other mini double-stack polymer guns go 20 oz. and up.

Add the weight of the additional rounds and the weight only continues to increase.

So, no, I think I'll stick with the PM9.
 
I'm sort of thinking the new Kahr will be another polymer design, although I'm wondering exactly what "innovative" features it will have.

I've always thought that Kahr might have missed the boat in building a full size double stack police capable auto. It might have won some contracts with the police-loved DA trigger function.

Whatever, it's going to have to really show me something before I even think of replacing my older stainless K9.
 
dfariswheel said:
I'm sort of thinking the new Kahr will be another polymer design, although I'm wondering exactly what "innovative" features it will have.

I've always thought that Kahr might have missed the boat in building a full size double stack police capable auto. It might have won some contracts with the police-loved DA trigger function.

Whatever, it's going to have to really show me something before I even think of replacing my older stainless K9.
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They were very popular, had a contract with the largest police force in thev U.S., and were well thought of, but Moon failed to change anything other than color schemes and to add a rail in the over last decade. Everyone has moved on, most in America don't even know what a Kahr is now, and yes, they missed the boat.

It seems Kahr and Justin Moon were more interested in the other companies they've brought, and less interested in the line that put him on the map in the first place. I honestly believe the Kahr line only sells a small few thousand of handguns per year that wouldn't even be 1% of S&W, Glock, Ruger, Taurus, etc annual sales.
 
I was curious how many pistols Kahr actually still makes in a year so I looked it up on the ATF website. The first year they have records available was 2007 and the last was 2021.

In 2007 kahr made 26,166 pistols in all calibers.
In 2011 it was 50,660
In 2016 it was 40,274
In 2021 is was 11,606

So yes kahr has dropped off quite dramatically over the years despite the sales of all firearms skyrocketing in the same time period and I can only imagine that trend has continued. In comparison Smith and Wesson made just shy of 1.9 million pistols and revolvers.

Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result does not make much business sense. So for the people that say kahr doesn't need to change anything, you better hope they do because otherwise they are going to be out of business.
 
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