How strong is Marlin 45-70?

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Onty

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Let's put aside Scott's way he is making his videos, that should be another topic, but here is the test he had done using grossly overloaded round 45-70 in Henry lever action rifle. He stated that pressure is "upwards of 200 000 psi". That is about twice of proof load pressure in modern large caliber magnum rifle rounds.

Here is the video, just start it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqNMolE7aZI&t=264s .

As you could see, bolt in receiver didn't move, but barrel gave up. Quite testimony to knowledge and skills of engineers who created this rifle!

I was always curious how strong modern lever action rifles are. Now, I do not have any doubt that they are more than strong enough for any sane load, in any caliber for lever action.

BTW, I found somewhere statement that when Mauser M98 was designed, the goal was to make receiver and bolt so strong that in case of overload, barrel thread will be stripped and barrel should fly forward, but receiver and bolt should stay intact, protecting shooter.

CORRECTION: Steve51, silicosys4 and 3Crows pointed that I was wrong regarding rifles shown in this video. Looking better from beginning, the first rifle shown is late Henry 45-70, with side loading gate. At the first moment I thought that Scott was wrong, because that rifle has very similar design of receiver and bolt as on Marlin rifles. In addition, I omitted front loading feature on end of tube. Also, rifle actually tested was another Henry model, without side loading gate.
This is a great forum, with great and very knowledgeable folks, always ready to help! Thanks to all of you for correcting me!
 
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I have a Henry .45-70 and I know the rifle will safely shoot loads that are much hotter than my shoulder can take.
As already mentioned - don't know why anyone would want to exceed maximum loads and run the risk of personal injury and destroying your firearm.
I am a firm believer that hitting target vitals is much more important than using the hottest load.
 
Onty said:
Let's put aside Scott's way he is making his videos, that should be another topic, but here is the test he had done using grossly overloaded round 45-70 in Marlin rifle. He stated that pressure is "upwards of 200 000 psi". That is about twice of proof load pressure in modern large caliber magnum rifle rounds.

Here is the video, just start it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqNMolE7aZI&t=264s .

As you could see, bolt in receiver didn't move, but barrel gave up. Quite testimony to knowledge and skills of engineers who created this rifle!

I was always curious how strong Marlin rifles are. Now, I do not have any doubt that they are more than strong enough for any sane load, in any caliber for lever action. Also, considering how Ruger makes their firearms, I am confident that new Marlins under Ruger umbrella are at least same strength, if not stronger than rifles in previous production.

BTW, I found somewhere statement that when Mauser M98 was designed, the goal was to make receiver and bolt so strong that in case of overload, barrel thread will be stripped and barrel should fly forward, but receiver and bolt should stay intact, protecting shooter.
Click to expand...
Here's an article you might find interesting about the strengths of the various lever action .45-70's.

 
Onty said:
Let's put aside Scott's way he is making his videos, that should be another topic, but here is the test he had done using grossly overloaded round 45-70 in Marlin rifle. He stated that pressure is "upwards of 200 000 psi". That is about twice of proof load pressure in modern large caliber magnum rifle rounds.

Here is the video, just start it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqNMolE7aZI&t=264s .

As you could see, bolt in receiver didn't move, but barrel gave up. Quite testimony to knowledge and skills of engineers who created this rifle!

I was always curious how strong Marlin rifles are. Now, I do not have any doubt that they are more than strong enough for any sane load, in any caliber for lever action. Also, considering how Ruger makes their firearms, I am confident that new Marlins under Ruger umbrella are at least same strength, if not stronger than rifles in previous production.

BTW, I found somewhere statement that when Mauser M98 was designed, the goal was to make receiver and bolt so strong that in case of overload, barrel thread will be stripped and barrel should fly forward, but receiver and bolt should stay intact, protecting shooter.
Click to expand...

This is just Y-tube showmanship. The round was loaded far in excess of safe pressure and since he had only one rifle (fortunately he wasted a Henry and not a Marlin) he has absolutely no incremental data points between known acceptable loads and (speculated?) manufacturing proof pressures. That is not science, it is showmanship. The rifle might have failed at 55,000, 60,000, 75,198, 100,101 psi, who knows anything from this except that somewhere north of manufacturing proof pressures and known safe loads, the rifle will fail. And we already knew that. I guess it does show the barrel blowing out of the receiver which would be expected due to the very thin section where the receiver is cut out to accept the magazine tube leaving that area of the threaded barrel broach glaringly thin.
 
3Crows said:
This is just Y-tube showmanship. The round was loaded far in excess of safe pressure and since he had only one rifle (fortunately he wasted a Henry and not a Marlin) he has absolutely no incremental data points between known acceptable loads and (speculated?) manufacturing proof pressures. That is not science, it is showmanship. The rifle might have failed at 55,000, 60,000, 75,198, 100,101 psi, who knows anything from this except that somewhere north of manufacturing proof pressures and known safe loads, the rifle will fail. And we already knew that. I guess it does show the barrel blowing out of the receiver which would be expected due to the very thin section where the receiver is cut out to accept the magazine tube leaving that area of the threaded barrel broach glaringly thin.
Click to expand...
I agree with you! And thanks for correcting me regarding showing in video Henry rifle, not Marlin. However, my point is that 45-70 rifle has so strong receiver and bolt that will stay basically intact even under such pressure that barrel failed. Ultimate test for receiver and bolt would be testing the same way 30-30 rifle, that has much thicker barrel in threaded area than 45-70.
 
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Properly made guns are made to fail the safest way possible, unfortunately Scott is a victim of a improperly deigned gun. I'd say the marlins are pretty strong definitely the new ones are but guns can get pounded out over repeated hot loads, so around 50k there just fine. I've loaded 45-70 aproching 60k range with my Siamese mauser but know one wants to fire to may loads that warm or your shoulder.
 
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Scott makes interesting videos but he has no clue as to the "standard operating pressure" of a 45-70 round. He states that the "normal operating pressures" for the round range from 40-60 K PSI.

NO, they don't! The hottest Ruger #1 loads barely approach 40,000 PSI.
 
I like Scott’s channel. He seems like a genuine guy. We all know he’s doing this for the spectacle of it, and to make money, it is his job after all. We consumers of entertainment need new entertainment to consume! If even in the guise of pseudoscience.
And he has other channels devoted to the real review and serious discussion of firearms, so look for them!

Let’s face it. We can’t love his inflatable dinosaur sketches and then hold him to doctoral levels of test engineering.
He paid for a rifle and blew it up, under safe conditions, and high speed filming, for us!

And he used a Henry, that should make some of us smile on its face value alone.

Really any container roughly the size of a finger and filled with as much dry nitroglycerin as possible will make around 140,000 psi in a firearm. Because that’s when high carbon steel begins to fracture, releasing the pressure, and little bits of hypersonic thought and finger removal devices…
While the lever rifle may fail in a “safe” way, when it happens there is no way to predict where the pieces go afterwards.

I wish he was my neighbor!
(Honestly. I could really borrow his crane right now…)
 
From a handloaders perspective the books show 3 different levels. The lightest loads are safe in all rifles including original Springfields and their reproductions if in good shape. My manuals show most of these around 15,000-17,000 PSI.

The lever actions are suitable for the low level loads and mid level loads. These mid-level loads are around 25,000-28, 000 PSI. Those loads were developed with the Marlin in mind, but I doubt the Henry is any stronger. The high-end loads are only safe in modern single shots like the Ruger #1 and some bolt action rifles top out at 50,000 PSI in my manuals.

The 45-70 is greatly over-hyped especially with loads suitable for a lever action. Some people seem to think that they can get close to 458 WM performance in a lever gun. They can't come close. 30-30 and 44 mag, outperform the lowest power level loads while the hottest safe loads for a lever action get you into acceptable elk/moose territory. I wouldn't choose a 45-70 lever action. for anything that might bite back.

One thing a lot of guys overlook is that when you start pushing the envelope right to the limits you also increase the chances of a malfunction. Just because it didn't blow up in your hands doesn't mean it won't fail to function with these hot loads.

Even the hottest loads safe in a bolt rifle are well below 458 WM power levels.
 
They're stronger than the original guns that chambered the cartridge but limited to 40,000psi. While the modern 1886 is good to 50,000. The 1895 is not strong enough for the .454.
 
jmr40 said:
From a handloaders perspective the books show 3 different levels. The lightest loads are safe in all rifles including original Springfields and their reproductions if in good shape. My manuals show most of these around 15,000-17,000 PSI.

The lever actions are suitable for the low level loads and mid level loads. These mid-level loads are around 25,000-28, 000 PSI. Those loads were developed with the Marlin in mind, but I doubt the Henry is any stronger. The high-end loads are only safe in modern single shots like the Ruger #1 and some bolt action rifles top out at 50,000 PSI in my manuals.

The 45-70 is greatly over-hyped especially with loads suitable for a lever action. Some people seem to think that they can get close to 458 WM performance in a lever gun. They can't come close. 30-30 and 44 mag, outperform the lowest power level loads while the hottest safe loads for a lever action get you into acceptable elk/moose territory. I wouldn't choose a 45-70 lever action. for anything that might bite back.

One thing a lot of guys overlook is that when you start pushing the envelope right to the limits you also increase the chances of a malfunction. Just because it didn't blow up in your hands doesn't mean it won't fail to function with these hot loads.

Even the hottest loads safe in a bolt rifle are well below 458 WM power levels.
Click to expand...
You still repeating this nonsense??? I'd love to hear upon what logic this conclusion is based. I can only guess you're looking at energy which provides a great example of why energy is the poorest metric for measuring terminal effect.

In the real world, Trapdoor level loads get a 500gr to 1200fps and that will penetrate end to end on any Cape buffalo. This is an order of magnitude more effective than the .30-30 and you need serious handloads with heavy bullets for the .44 to compete.

Out of a Marlin at 40,000psi, you can get a 400gr Barnes Buster or a 380gr Lehigh copper solid WFN to 2000fps and that is good for any game, anywhere.

Everything you posted above is patently false.
 
jmr40 said:
The lever actions are suitable for the low level loads and mid level loads. These mid-level loads are around 25,000-28, 000 PSI. Those loads were developed with the Marlin in mind, but I doubt the Henry is any stronger.
Click to expand...

You may need some new books as I see loads in several books moving on up in to the high 30,000 psi range specified as for lever (Marlin) rifles.
 
someguy2800 said:
View attachment 1191268

If you want to play hot rod with guns you need to know exactly what you are doing
Click to expand...

That is good advice but for several of the old time rounds, .45 Colt and .45-70 for two, There is vetted and proven published data for specific firearms to exceed their olden time (original) loads for the cartridge. For example, the large frame .45 Blackhawk revolver in .45 Colt and the Marlin in .45-70.
 
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All I know is Scott did it for entertainment, but also to show worst case scenario what could happen to a firearm, or even a shooter should there be a total catastrophic event. No its not exactly science, with a data point of 1. But it looks to me like at least he's showing what could happen or will happen if you aren't careful.

Some here know, some here don't, but Scott is speaking from experience about catastrophic failures, he almost died when his Serbu 50BMG shooting "slap rounds" he called them exploded right back into his face, chest, and neck. To me I took it and all his gun blow up vids as a reminder to always be as safe as possible with a loaded firearm, and to always be careful at the loading bench. Last but not least if something doesn't look, feel, act right, stop and check recheck and verify.

PS just stick a thumb in it.
 
3Crows said:
That is good advice but for several of the old time rounds, .45 Colt and .45-70 for two, There is vetted and proven published data for specific firearms to exceed their olden time (original) loads for the cartridge. For example, the large frame .45 Blackhawk revolver in .45 Colt and the Marlin in .45-70.
Click to expand...

Right, and there are also people going way above and beyond even those published +P loads, like the 50,000 psi 45 colt loads for ruger redhawks for instance or people loading 9mm major. A hobby only for those that know what they are doing. My personal hot rod project is 35 Remington loaded in firearms designed for 308 pressures.
 
Some food for thought,

5.56 nata .378" case head = 0.1121639 sq in X 62,000 psi = 6954 lbs
45/70 .505" case head = 0.2001946 sq in X 28,000 psi = 5604 lbs
45/70 .505" case head = 0.2001946 sq in X 40,000 psi = 8007 lbs
308 win .478" case head = 0.1793599 sq in X 62,000 psi = 11,120

45/70 does not take such a bank vault strong action as some make out. Where the 45/70 lever gun limits probably lie is the thickness of the chamber wall and the front receiver hoop. They are pretty thin on an 1895.
 
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You can look at it that way or another way, that shooting unknown slap rounds for the purpose of showmanship to make a video to get hits was not very smart. Nobody is advocating unknown loads, untested loads or unpublished loads that have not been vetted or anything approaching that. Well, except in the Y-tube stuff, I guess.
 
3Crows said:
That is good advice but for several of the old time rounds, .45 Colt and .45-70 for two, There is vetted and proven published data for specific firearms to exceed their olden time (original) loads for the cartridge. For example, the large frame .45 Blackhawk revolver in .45 Colt and the Marlin in .45-70.
Click to expand...
At modern lever gun pressures, and a 500 grain bullet with 50 grains of aa2015 in a 45-70 generates just shy of 50 lbs of recoil. Show Me the stud that needs more.... one could move up to ruger #1 loads but I'd already need a wambulance.... not kidding. Screenshot_20240124_200140_Chrome.jpg
 
AJC1 said:
At modern lever gun pressures, and a 500 grain bullet with 50 grains of aa2015 in a 45-70 generates just shy of 50 lbs of recoil. Show Me the stud that needs more.... one could move up to ruger #1 loads but I'd already need a wambulance.... not kidding.
Click to expand...

If you are trying to make an argument or infer I am advocating overloading a rifle or using the Ruger #1 loads for a 1895 I am not going to bite. There are published loads for Marlin (lever) rifles in the literature from reputable companies that exceed the original historic loads and the pressure number from the other post that I quoted.

I have run quite a few HMS and BB +P loads through my SBL. The recoil is just not that bad. Why do we need to exaggerate the .45-70 recoil. If you have a specific load that generates too much recoil for you and you have no need for it then do not load it or shoot it, problem solved.

Good day.
 
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