The Freeholder
Member
Guys, I hate to say it, but I think you're feeding a troll. Even if Liberty1 isn't a troll, you're :banghead:.
Why against liberals?
- Thread starter Liberty1
- Start date
- Status
spacemanspiff
Senior Member
personally i dont see much of a difference between a 'nanny state' and a 'police state'.
what i disagree with is when people encourage the government to tell me what hobbies i should have, how i can defend my life and that of my loved ones, and change the acceptable forms of speech. i also dislike when attempts are made to force me to be 'tolerant'.
liberty1, i should have began this with a welcome. so i'll do that now. what you'll find here at THR is that we are always open to rational discussion. there are a few that may berate you, but a small handful out of the few thousand that would like to express our views, opinions and beliefs with the opposing team hopefully will make you want to stay.
our philosophy here is that we take the High Road. we won't stoop to name calling or flaming. if there is nothing nice to say, then we just wont say anything.
but back to your topic...heres one reason i'll never see eye to eye with liberals: blame-shifting. i have not once ever seen a liberal take personal responsibility for their actions, or encourage others to do such. in a nutshell, there is always the claim that no one is to blame for what happens to them. people get lung cancer so they sue tobacco companies. people get morbidly obese, so they sue fast food companies. people have a family member who dies from a criminal wielding a gun, and the family sues the manufacturer of the gun.
why? the cigarettes the cancer-stricken person smoked functioned as they were intended, providing a nicotine high.
the big macs quenched a persons appetite.
the gun functioned as it was intended.
see the trend? with liberals, blame is never placed where it belongs.
heres another thing: liberals lie.
every bit of data i have seen from liberals pushing for gun control has been misquoted, miscalculated, taken out of context, and exaggerated.
if you wish me to expound, let me know. you state you dont want to disarm the population, so maybe you dont fall into the mold i have gotten accustomed to from the liberals i have encountered.
Last edited:
[email protected]
Member
Perhaps a better question is why liberals, who are supposed to be champions of individual freedoms, always seem to be arrayed against us? Case in point the ACLU, who seems to acknowledge the individual right to do anything one desires, may desire, is thought to want to desire, or may someday desire, except own a firearm.... food for thought. We firearms owners are the injured party, we were attacked. I don't think some NRA board members were sitting around sometime back in the 50s saying, "Hey, let's go defame some liberals...".
DanO
DanO
iamkris
Member
Binster said it the best...others have said it also...this is a hit and run troll meant for the sole purpose of getting the board to fight with itself. Here is Binkster's post...a darn good one for only 11 posts
Hit and run posters
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am mostly a lurker on this and several other boards. I don't post much mostly because you guys (and gals) are so sharp and quick that I don't have anything else constructive to add. Anyway, I have been seeing this type of hit and run posting from guys like Liberty1 since before the last election cycle. I seems like there is an organized effort by the left to come to boards like this and try to defend their ideology. When they get their butts kicked in the debate they just disappear and you never hear from them again. Eventually, another one comes along and your hear the same pathetic arguements.
Hit and run posters
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am mostly a lurker on this and several other boards. I don't post much mostly because you guys (and gals) are so sharp and quick that I don't have anything else constructive to add. Anyway, I have been seeing this type of hit and run posting from guys like Liberty1 since before the last election cycle. I seems like there is an organized effort by the left to come to boards like this and try to defend their ideology. When they get their butts kicked in the debate they just disappear and you never hear from them again. Eventually, another one comes along and your hear the same pathetic arguements.
David W. Gay
Member
- Joined
- May 7, 2004
- Messages
- 119
What would be the point of that? When all agree, there is no hinderance to achieving whatever goal that has been agreeded apon. However, when people disagree, fewer goals are achieved. And some issues are so devisive, that mutual agreement will never be met. That is just life. And that is why ther is debate.
I agree, but I don't think many liberals do.
Sure, there are some conservatives out there that support the expanse of "poice&state powers", but they are far fewer in numbers.
In regards to guns, while I know that not all persons of a (modern) politically liberal bent are anti-gun, the vast majority are. On what do I base that statement? Personal experience.
Oh, well. That's all I can think of to say at the moment.
Carry on!
---------
Ok, those who responded angrily I completely understand you. In fact I have been lurking and reading a lot for a long time, here and elsewhere, you see the same things from the other side of the political spectrum. I really just saw the term liberal transformed from an honorable title into an insult over the past couple years, and had to know why. This site is composed of gun-owners, with clearly defined issues, so I thought I'd check the water too see how hospitable people would be to political alliances to achieve goals. That this is called trolling is one symptom I wish to ignore, and I was pleased to see so many people respond with reason. They show that everyone Can get past labels that we do not place on ourselves.
I can take a hint, however, when one is being politely asked to leave. I just ask that you all consider, and ask your friends to consider that 90% of the populace is not brainwashed, but open to reason. Each side pretends all the people of the other are unreasonable and irrational, but don't fall for it. Both political parties are attacking your rights, people need to cross the invisible border and work together to reclaim the country. Even the people you mention who have all the worst qualities you can imagine should be open to reason - make the point to them that no-one is safe from a police state. One right is attacked at a time with the hope that people will not fight for a right they don't care about.
Just ask people to start considering a grassroots alliance, people on both sides have to start talking, they have so much in common.
"First they came for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up, because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me.
by Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945
A pastor in the German Confessing Church
Who spent from 1937 to 1945 in Sachsenhausen
and Dachau concentration camps."
I can take a hint, however, when one is being politely asked to leave. I just ask that you all consider, and ask your friends to consider that 90% of the populace is not brainwashed, but open to reason. Each side pretends all the people of the other are unreasonable and irrational, but don't fall for it. Both political parties are attacking your rights, people need to cross the invisible border and work together to reclaim the country. Even the people you mention who have all the worst qualities you can imagine should be open to reason - make the point to them that no-one is safe from a police state. One right is attacked at a time with the hope that people will not fight for a right they don't care about.
Just ask people to start considering a grassroots alliance, people on both sides have to start talking, they have so much in common.
"First they came for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up, because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me.
by Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945
A pastor in the German Confessing Church
Who spent from 1937 to 1945 in Sachsenhausen
and Dachau concentration camps."
I'm sorry that you feel you have been asked to leave, and that some have felt the need to say that all liberals are uncouth and even "exude a sense of dis-ease [sic]".
I would firmly agree that no part of the spectrum has the monopoly on being right.
I would firmly agree that no part of the spectrum has the monopoly on being right.
308win
Member
The following quotes are from the same post; do I detect a disconnect or a liberal dose of hypocrisy here or am I just in a bad mood today? 
Unless your employer is a verwy verwy tolerant type it is probably a good thing that you have a union too which you belong under duress.
Unless your employer is a verwy verwy tolerant type it is probably a good thing that you have a union too which you belong under duress.
GoRon
Member
Liberty1
As others have stated, "liberal " no longer means what it once did.
What is it that you are trying to accomplish here?
The main arguments around here are between the Republicans, Conservatives and Libertarians. (on politics that is)
Are you a classical liberal or a modern liberal/progressive?
You will find many here who are classical liberals to one degree or another.
There are not alot of progressives on this forum board, gun rights and a progressive political philosophy rarely are found together.
As others have stated, "liberal " no longer means what it once did.
What is it that you are trying to accomplish here?
The main arguments around here are between the Republicans, Conservatives and Libertarians. (on politics that is)
Are you a classical liberal or a modern liberal/progressive?
You will find many here who are classical liberals to one degree or another.
There are not alot of progressives on this forum board, gun rights and a progressive political philosophy rarely are found together.
Last edited:
PromptCritical
Member
I have come to the conclusion that liberals (as they are known) take a "cart before the horse" circular logic strategy involving politics. They imagine their perfect world utopia, and work back from there. For example: In a perfect world there will be no violence. Therefore, guns will be unnecessary. They then impose this on the current world, in the hopes that it will lead to the utopia. Try it yourself. Think of the future utopia and think of an aspect of it. Whoa. And the best part is, they will try to achieve it with our tax dollars.
Ironically enough, even as liberals say they don't like the government, they keep wanting us to give it more money and more power. Its an endless cycle. Until the revolution, that is...
Ironically enough, even as liberals say they don't like the government, they keep wanting us to give it more money and more power. Its an endless cycle. Until the revolution, that is...
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
I disremember where I read a discussion about the political use of the word "Liberal". Anyhow, the original "Classical Liberal" of the time of the writing of our Constitution lasted until just after WW I. The word "Progressive" had been around, but was too much tied to the IWW "Wobblies" and such. Those better described as "Statists" who are collectivist and who want eve-stronger power to the central government usurped the name "Liberal". It first appeared around 1928, IIRC.
At any rate, the modern political liberal follows the concepts of FDR and LBJ to a great extent: Government not only can but should be the authority to solve social problems.
Another facet of liberalism is governmental control over the use of private property: "You own it, but we tell you how you can use it." This is one of the tenets of Fascism. It shows up in the U.S. under the guise of "Land use management".
By and large, the modern American liberal is not at all a rugged individualist with the idea that each of us is responsible for the consequences of our decisions and actions. He believes in the idea of "It's society's fault." Most of us on this website find this to be anathema.
Other liberal ideas include the notion of "giving" self-esteem--which can only be earned by surmounting challenges. Or, how can you "respect" those who've not earned it? Sure, you can be polite and courteous, but you don't "owe" respect...
And so forth...
Art
At any rate, the modern political liberal follows the concepts of FDR and LBJ to a great extent: Government not only can but should be the authority to solve social problems.
Another facet of liberalism is governmental control over the use of private property: "You own it, but we tell you how you can use it." This is one of the tenets of Fascism. It shows up in the U.S. under the guise of "Land use management".
By and large, the modern American liberal is not at all a rugged individualist with the idea that each of us is responsible for the consequences of our decisions and actions. He believes in the idea of "It's society's fault." Most of us on this website find this to be anathema.
Other liberal ideas include the notion of "giving" self-esteem--which can only be earned by surmounting challenges. Or, how can you "respect" those who've not earned it? Sure, you can be polite and courteous, but you don't "owe" respect...
And so forth...
Art
Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
Yep, but we're not to be confused with what's known as "liberals" these days.
ThreadKiller
Member
For at least the last 25 years here in the USA, "liberalism" has been in lock step with the Leftist worldview. Every program and scheme produced by the Liberal camp seems to have one goal in mind and that is, the construction of the cradle to grave "nanny state."
The main theme behind virtually every Liberal ideal and indeed the prime motivation in all Liberal efforts, is to promote the idea that the individual is weak, foolish and utterly incompetent. They advance the notion whenever possible that the State, and only the State, is qualified to make decisions.
Joe Six Pack has a problem. The Conservative right will offer Joe a mirror and tell him the answer is in there somewhere. The Liberal Left will offer him yet another government program and tell him someone else is paying for it.
Joe Six Pack looks in the mirror and sees that he (like all of us) is the single biggest obstacle in his path to success. The Conservative will tell him, "Get over it. You're not special. You're unique. Just like everyone else." The Liberal Left will tell him it's not his fault and offer him yet another federal program and tell him someone else is paying for it.
Are there people who honestly do need assistance? Certainly. But the government should be regarded by all as a last resort, not a first resource.
Because of modern Liberalism's pessimistic worldview, any and all state sponsored "cradle to grave" social programs can be justified. Of course, the wise understand that these "free" handouts come at a price, namely curtailed personal freedoms but unfortunately, many private citizens are completely willing to pay any price to get that free lunch.
"A government that is big enough to give you all that you want is big enough to take it all away." -Senator Barry Goldwater (R-AZ)
In short, the Liberal Left is in business to cater to the whiners and wankers and get as many citizens dependent on the Federal government as possible. Want more? The Left will tell you to whine more.
The Conservative Right remembers the people's business is the people's business and no one else's. Their advice if a person wants more? WORK MORE! By and large (and this is as true now as it ever has been) Conservatism understands that a person creates their own luck for the most part and hard work has created more "good luck" than any government handout ever devised, regardless of "noble intent."
Life isn't fair. Never has been and only liars claim they can make it fair.
"When someone is getting something for nothing it means that someone else is getting nothing for something." -Abraham Lincoln
I suggest you read some Rand and some Orwell and then report back with what you learn about the dangers of modern Liberalism.
Tim
The main theme behind virtually every Liberal ideal and indeed the prime motivation in all Liberal efforts, is to promote the idea that the individual is weak, foolish and utterly incompetent. They advance the notion whenever possible that the State, and only the State, is qualified to make decisions.
Joe Six Pack has a problem. The Conservative right will offer Joe a mirror and tell him the answer is in there somewhere. The Liberal Left will offer him yet another government program and tell him someone else is paying for it.
Joe Six Pack looks in the mirror and sees that he (like all of us) is the single biggest obstacle in his path to success. The Conservative will tell him, "Get over it. You're not special. You're unique. Just like everyone else." The Liberal Left will tell him it's not his fault and offer him yet another federal program and tell him someone else is paying for it.
Are there people who honestly do need assistance? Certainly. But the government should be regarded by all as a last resort, not a first resource.
Because of modern Liberalism's pessimistic worldview, any and all state sponsored "cradle to grave" social programs can be justified. Of course, the wise understand that these "free" handouts come at a price, namely curtailed personal freedoms but unfortunately, many private citizens are completely willing to pay any price to get that free lunch.
"A government that is big enough to give you all that you want is big enough to take it all away." -Senator Barry Goldwater (R-AZ)
In short, the Liberal Left is in business to cater to the whiners and wankers and get as many citizens dependent on the Federal government as possible. Want more? The Left will tell you to whine more.
The Conservative Right remembers the people's business is the people's business and no one else's. Their advice if a person wants more? WORK MORE! By and large (and this is as true now as it ever has been) Conservatism understands that a person creates their own luck for the most part and hard work has created more "good luck" than any government handout ever devised, regardless of "noble intent."
Life isn't fair. Never has been and only liars claim they can make it fair.
"When someone is getting something for nothing it means that someone else is getting nothing for something." -Abraham Lincoln
I suggest you read some Rand and some Orwell and then report back with what you learn about the dangers of modern Liberalism.
Tim
Stickjockey
Member
Liberty1-
First off, I don't recall anyone asking you to leave. Believe me, if that were the case, someone would have just up and asked. Please, sit a spell.
As to the question of why against liberals, the others have answered that question very well. The problem lies not in the label itself, but in the fact that the term "liberal" has been usurped by the hard-core leftist crowd who are looking to hide their true intention behind some honorable "window dressing", for lack of a better term. These are the folks who want to erode liberty and remove individual responsibility from our culture in the name of Political Correctness. What most people call "liberal" today isn't liberal at all, but socialist.
First off, I don't recall anyone asking you to leave. Believe me, if that were the case, someone would have just up and asked. Please, sit a spell.
As to the question of why against liberals, the others have answered that question very well. The problem lies not in the label itself, but in the fact that the term "liberal" has been usurped by the hard-core leftist crowd who are looking to hide their true intention behind some honorable "window dressing", for lack of a better term. These are the folks who want to erode liberty and remove individual responsibility from our culture in the name of Political Correctness. What most people call "liberal" today isn't liberal at all, but socialist.
ReadyontheRight
Member
Liberty1 -- Being a "Classical Liberal" myself, I disagree with many of the fundamental concepts driving the modern Liberal, but I personally can respect anyone who describes themselves as a Liberal without copping out with "progressive" or whatever.
Many of us have found that Democrats, and by extension - modern, U.S. Liberals, are the most likely candidates to push for ever-increasing laws infringing upon the individual right to keep and bear arms.
So far, you've made three posts with some good points, but I will hold back some of my points until you move from pontification to a dialogue.
This is a "gun board", not a politics board. Two questions for you to begin the dialogue:
1. What are your views on an individual's right to keep and bear arms?
2. Why do you think the framers of the Bill of Rights thought the right to keep and bear arms was important enough to give the concept its own Amendment?
Many of us have found that Democrats, and by extension - modern, U.S. Liberals, are the most likely candidates to push for ever-increasing laws infringing upon the individual right to keep and bear arms.
So far, you've made three posts with some good points, but I will hold back some of my points until you move from pontification to a dialogue.
This is a "gun board", not a politics board. Two questions for you to begin the dialogue:
1. What are your views on an individual's right to keep and bear arms?
2. Why do you think the framers of the Bill of Rights thought the right to keep and bear arms was important enough to give the concept its own Amendment?
"Liberals don't want to take away your guns. Police want to take away your guns."
I beg your pardon?
I'm not a gun owner.
I really don't know much about the subject at all, but I know enough about it to know that Bill Clinton, Ted Kennedy, Barbara Boxer, Nancy Pelosi, John Kerry, and others who have self-described as liberals over the years ALL want to seriously curtail, or eliminate, the right to own guns.
I'm a reformed liberal.
I like to think that, unlike many of my (former) friends, I actually grew up and saw the world for what it really is, which explains my increasingly conservative bent over the past several decades.
Of my (former) friends who are still dyed in the wool liberals?
Almost every one of them wants to virtually outlaw firearms.
I think they truly expect that if that's done, the country will turn into one huge hugfest.
Make no mistake about it.
Liberals want you guns; they want them so badly that they'll do just about anything they have to to get them.
I beg your pardon?
I'm not a gun owner.
I really don't know much about the subject at all, but I know enough about it to know that Bill Clinton, Ted Kennedy, Barbara Boxer, Nancy Pelosi, John Kerry, and others who have self-described as liberals over the years ALL want to seriously curtail, or eliminate, the right to own guns.
I'm a reformed liberal.
I like to think that, unlike many of my (former) friends, I actually grew up and saw the world for what it really is, which explains my increasingly conservative bent over the past several decades.
Of my (former) friends who are still dyed in the wool liberals?
Almost every one of them wants to virtually outlaw firearms.
I think they truly expect that if that's done, the country will turn into one huge hugfest.
Make no mistake about it.
Liberals want you guns; they want them so badly that they'll do just about anything they have to to get them.
Stevie-Ray
Member
Rather than write 1000 words on how I feel about the liberals of this country, I'll simply say 3 words:
Read Ann Coulter
Read Ann Coulter
DRZinn
Member
Until you get that straight, we have nothing to say to each other.
<hint>As everyone else has mentioned, the problem is in the definition of liberal.
rock jock
Member
I despise liberals because I am compelled to by my nature as a freedom-loving American.
BlackCat
member
I certainly hope that doesn't mean you vote republican.
Let's face it, both sides are inherently evil. They all want to take away our rights.
You don't vote Democrat because they want to take our gun rights, but you're happy to vote republican. They (Rep.) took away our rights against illegal search & seizure, among other things. The PATRIOT Act is the biggest blow to our Civil Rights in...oh say...forever...?
As a person inclined to sometimes vote Democrat I do take offense to all the bashing going on here. Don't you get it? Not everything is their fault. In my eyes it's split 50/50, yet I almost never see anything negative stated about the right wing. I guess there's no way to get it to stop, but there's no reason for it. I'm surpised everyone here isn't blaming "teh liberals" for the PATRIOT Act too. They came close in this thread, by saying if they ("teh liberals") were in charge it'd be in place anyway.
No, it wouldn't. Air said:
There's another side of the coin you know...
- 1. They believe in wasting billions of dollars fighting a war in sand hell half-way across the world that had nothing to do with us
- 2. They believe in no-knock warrants served at 3am
- 3. They believe that our troops dying in Iraq "died for their country"
- 4. They believe we're in Iraq fighting for our freedom
- 5. They believe money is better sent away to where we'll never see any of it again is justifiable because, Iraqis need to be free
- 6. They believe it's alright to have to cut our budget in every segment of our own government, for the Iraqis freedom
- 7. They believe in "sneak & peak" warrants on US citizens for little or no reason
- 8. They believe you don't have the right to have an abortion
- 9. They believe you must go to church
- 10. They don't realize the "war on drugs" is a complete and utter failure
- 11. They don't realize the "war on drugs" is a pointless joke
- 12. They believe that we can win "the war on terror"
- 13. They believe that illegal immigrants are good for our economy
- 14. They believe that sending all of our jobs to China is good for our economy
- 15. They believe we should all give up our freedoms for a negligible increase in our security
- 16. They believe we need to waste alot of undocumented money, in the name of "homeland security" (homeland security to me means an M-16 in the bedroom)
- 17. They believe in shutting down the majority of America's farms
- 18. They believe in dissolving unions
- 19. They believe Saddam had something to do with the attacks from Sept. 11, 2001
- 20. They believe a tremendous waste of human life is justifiable, because, those Iraqis must be free, it's imperative, we care
- 21. They believe that a drug dealer is a "terrorist"
That's about enough, there's oh so much more though...
Now tell me how great your political party is and how "teh liberals" are so awful...oh yeah, they're the anti-christ, I forgot.
One more thing, last I checked, Libertarians are a ways off their rocker too. I don't know where the hell I belong in the political spectrum of this country, they all worry me deeply to be honest. Certainly there's some small, obscure party, somewhere, that will never get any recognition that I can identify with.
Cool Hand Luke 22:36
member
You need to go back and review some of the anti-terror legislation that Bill Clinton proposed. Much of it was worse than the Patriot Act(s).
As for Liberalism in general, it has been the handmaiden to most repressive gun control laws iinstantiated in the US, and most of the socialist programs that Americans are forced to shell out astonishing amounts of their money to support.
Yes they do.
BlackCat,
I didn't go back and read the whole thread, but please don't confuse 'liberal' with 'Democrat' and 'conservative' with 'Republican'.
I don't think that you'll get much argument from me when you say that Republicans are no better at preserving our civil liberties then the Dems.
I didn't go back and read the whole thread, but please don't confuse 'liberal' with 'Democrat' and 'conservative' with 'Republican'.
I don't think that you'll get much argument from me when you say that Republicans are no better at preserving our civil liberties then the Dems.
Cool Hand Luke 22:36
member
Oh please...spare us the drama queen polemics.
As has been said, the term "Liberal" has been co-opted by a leftist/statist element in the US who have, by their behavior, turned that term into a pejorative. It's hardly Krystalnacht redeux to use them term appropiately as such.
Cool Hand Luke 22:36
member
Does that include being offended at way the thread originator labled any who disagreed with his viewpoint as a Nazi?
Recall his posting of:
The usual resort to insult practiced by most Liberals when unable to intelligently counter a challenge to their belief system.
- Status