made my first knife!

congrats on your first knife! i got my start making knives out of scrap steel in high school

for steel i would suggest going with a simple carbon steel like 1080 or 1095. there are many, many other good steels but i suggest those because they are inexpensive, easy to work, and will achieve a good hamon line. www.admiralsteel.com carries both these steels and others too.

keep in mind you will have to heattreat the steel to get the best out of it.

have you checked out the knifemaking forums yet? lots of good free info and people that are more than willing to help out there.

www.knifenetwork.com www.bladeforums.com

Good for you - I can show you how to make a real simple heat treat forge for carbon steels if you're interested.

Congrats on your first knife! I make my own out of discarded steel and have made near a dozen from old saw blades. Mine aren't examples of master craftsmanship but they cut well and don't fall apart.

For small blades, under 4", old saw steel should be okay for strength as long as the blade has some width for support. The steel is thin and flexible but in my experience un-annealed saw blades (and files for that matter) are brittle and can snap or spring back in your face. Try to keep 'em a little on the short and stout side if you want a "user" knife.

Skinner, puukko, and drop point style blades work the best for me when using saw steel. I don't know how they rate in hardness but it's quite acceptable considering the cost of materials.

Very simple - if you can get soft fire bricks locally get them that way, if not go to http://refractory.elliscustomknifeworks.com/ and buy them there. Use those and regular bricks to make the forge. I hollowed out 2 firebricks and wired them together - a 1/2" spade bit in a drill works great for that. Also drill a hole in the side for the Mapp gas torch you buy at Home Depot or Lowe's.

Also get a magnet, as you'll be heating the steel to non-magnetic. Then fill a pan (I use a roasting pan) with peanut or olive oil and use that to quench the knife.

Once you do all that stick in the oven (I use the toaster oven from Wal-Mart) for 1 to 2 hours at 400 degrees to temper the knife.

Here's mine - Amazon box is optional!

First, do not take your knife down to a thin edge or it'll warp during HT. Leave 20 or 25 thousandths and then take it down after HT. After profiling the knife I mark the edge part with Dykem Blue and use calipers to make lines down the center of where the edge will be. I keep the lines 25 thousandths apart.

It's best to "equalize" the knife first - heat it up to almost but not quite non-magnetic then let it cool to room temp. I do this twice on O1 knives.

Then when I do the heat treat I turn the "Ghetto Forge" torch on and lay the knife in the bottom of the chamber to warm up. Equalizing and warming up are because this process puts ALOT of stress on the knife and anything you do to reduce that stress means less chance of the knife cracking. I've never had one crack.

Now I also have the oven warming up to 400. I should also mention that the better the knife is finished at this point the better. Big 50-grit scratches give a place to crack, plus finishing is harder after HT. I now finish the whole knife to 400 grit although 220 works great also.

Ok, so the knife is warming up and the oven is on. Is it cold where you are? Can't heat that knife up red hot and stick it in cold oil! Crack! If it's cold use a torch to heat up the oil some. 125 degrees is nice.

Now with welding gloves on I take a pair of vice-grips and grab the knife and start trying to get the heat even all over the blade. At some point you'll want to pull it out and check it with the magnet. If it's sticking then it ain't ready, back in you go. When you check it and it's completely non-magnetic, then you're almost ready to quench. Put it back in the heat as it's cooled off a bit and get that even color back, then plunge it into the oil. I wave it around a bit in the oil to make sure the heat gets away from the knife and it cools as rapidly as possible. I think 30 seconds to a minute is plenty in the oil, then I pull it out and wipe the oil off. It looks nasty at this point as it's covered with black scale. Some will clean it off but I don't want it cooling off too much so I check the edge with a file (file should bounce off the edge and make a glassy sound - if it bites the steel is not hard enough) and get it in the oven for an hour.

You can also edge-quench the blade and get a temper line. Once non-magnetic just stick the edge of the knife in the oil and hold it there. Some even build racks to hold the knife just at the right depth, but the times I've done it I just held it.

After you do this a couple of times you'll see it's easier to do than explain. Just don't skip steps or you will break a blade.

As always, YMMV, don't burn or stab yourself and keep a fire extinguisher handy.

There's many tutorials on all aspects of knifemaking:

http://www.knivesby.com/knifemaking.html
http://gbrannon.bizhat.com/
http://www.knifenetwork.com/workshop/index.shtml
http://www.knife-making-supplies.net/
http://www.rayrogers.com/kitchen.htm

Have fun man!

Dons giving you good info there. i thought i would add a couple points.....

when you quench the steel in the oil do it either point or edge first. do NOT plunge the blade in on its side or you will get a crooked blade from warping. when you move the blade around in the oil use the same motion..up and down with either the point or edge leading...not side to side. once the blade is fairly cool you can go side to side but until you learn when the temp has dropped enough to move side to side i would recommend moving it edge to spine.

dont have your face over the oil when you quench...sometimes it flames up.

before sticking the knife in the oven i clean off a small patch of the scale so i can see clean steel...then when its tempered i look at the color...it should be a nice golden-straw color. if its blue you heated it too hot, if the color didnt change or is just barely showing golden tints you probably didnt get it hot enough. some oven dials arent very accurate and when it says 400 its really hitting 350 or 450 etc so the color change is just confirmation for me, its not essential to do especially if you are familiar with your oven. use an oven rack near the middle of the oven...too close to the heating elements and the temp will be much higher. i dont clean off all of the scale prior to tempering....just a 1" window to the steel.

i agree with him 100% that you must leave the edge a bit thick and you must remove all the scracthes. doing these two steps will reduce your cracking rate to near zero.

as he said, once you do it a few times youll see how easy it is.

nice forge don, how big of a blade can you heat in it?

Good stuff ecos - I kept forgetting details! Those links have all the info you could ever need though.

I can do a 5" blade. I've been meaning to knock out the back of the firebricks and put another in the back but haven't done it. I've just made the big ones out of stainless and sent them to Bos for HT.

You'll go broke quick in this biz - there's always more stuff to buy. The only way to make a miliion knifemaking is to start with 2 million.

Valkman-

I began making knives about a year ago. Just plain ol' 01 toolsteel, using (gulp) a Sears benchtop belt sander. It works OK, but I can't get a a good clean edge where the bevel of the blade stops and the flat spot for the handle begins. From what I've seen, someone can step into an amature belt grinder designed for knives for around $300 - $400. Does one of these really make that much of an improvement on the grinding process?

Sorry for the rookie questions, been making knives as a hobby only. But here lately I've become much more interested in making GOOD knives, but it always seems to take me WAY to much time to finish the blade after it's ground (lots and lots of sanding to get out the scratches). So I'm at that point of either investing in an affordable (read - "cheap") belt grinder designed for knive grinding, or just start ordering preground blades, add a few personal touches, and spend more time and effort on applying a beautiful handle. But if I do that, it's just "kinda" hand made, ya know?

Thoughts?

JLaw

JLaw

I've been making knives longer than Valkman (but I think he's better than me already ) so maybe I can offer some advice on the grinder.
I started out on an 8" bench grinder. 36 and 60 grit stone wheels. I used it for a few years and eventually was able to buy a second one that ran at half speed and had 60 and 120 grit wheels, to help save some time on finishing. I used that set up for a long time. I've also got a 4X36 belt sander, but never liked it because it was slow and belts are expensive.
About a year ago I got serious and picked up the pace and and started selling knives to save up for a belt grinder. I ended up with a Coote 2X72 with a 10" wheel. I set it up with step pulleys and a 1-1/2 HP motor. The difference can't really be described, you just have to put a peice of steel on one some time! It is a much nicer machine to run. Its so much quieter, smoother and doesn't pelt you with hot sparks all the time unless you're really hogging on something.
Does it make "better" knives.....well....no not really. It makes it faster to make better knives. It didn't really improve my blade geometry, or performance. I could make a knife that works just as well on a benchgrinder if I do everything right. The belt grinder makes it a lot easier to do everything right though. You can slow it down if you need to, change grits if you need to, run the belt off the side of the platen/wheel different amounts. Learning to grind on a true belt grinder is a much easier thing than learning to grind on the machines alot of us try to make do with.
The belt grinder also makes it alot easier to put a good finish on a knife. No more starting to hand finsih at 150 grit, I can grind all the way to 600. Some knives I don't even do hand finishing on anymore.
2X72 belts are also more economical than other sizes in the end. You have a better selection of belts, so you can tailor fit them to your type of grinding, and the higher grade ones generally last fairly well.

Long story short, if you can afford a belt grinder it will probably be the best addition you've made to your shop to date. But if its not in the cards, its not a deal breaker. A belt grinder isn't what makes good knives

my first belt sander was a sears 4x36...i hated it. soon after i bought a lobo 6x48...my grind lines improved instantly. after using that machine for years i bought a grizzly 2x72. now i do most of my work with the grizzly, its faster, more powerful, and the belts are cheaper. if you can afford a better sander it will be a real time saver for you. if you cant afford one i would suggest using the 4x36 just to rough grind the shape of the blade then use files to even everything out. with how bad the tracking and platten was in my sears sander i could get far better lines with files.

in the next year i plan on buying a variable speed kmg sander. it has a high price tag but its worth it in the amount of time and frustration it should save me.

"A belt grinder isn't what makes good knives "

Yes Redneck, you are correct. I suppose I meant to say (like you mentioned) make it EASIER to make better knives. I have found one from TKS for $325.00 (no motor, I can get those cheap) that uses 2 1/2 x 48 belts. But I've also thought of doing what you've done and make lots more knives and sell them to fund a more expensive model. How much do the Coote and Lobo machines ya'll talk about run (on average)? Not sure what I'll do just yet, but thank you very much for the insight. The fact that you can use a good belt grinder to take the blades all the way down to 600 grit is a huge plus, that's working smarter, not harder!

some oven dials arent very accurate and when it says 400 its really hitting 350 or 450 etc

Click to expand...

I don't know squat about making knives (wanna learn bad though) but I know a thing or two about cooking. Most ovens (especially electric) heat in cycles. They turn the heating element on until the temp gets just over your set temp, then turn it off and wait for it to drop a certain amount below your temp before turning it back on again. So even a "good" oven will fluctuate +- 20 or 25 degrees or so from the target temperature. Putting a pizza stone (or since you guys are mostly talking about toaster ovens, or small ovens i guess) or peices of a pizza stone on the bottom rack of an oven will help smooth out the fluctuations. And buy a decent oven thermometer. They only cost like 15 or 20 bucks or so for a good one, and the built in thermometer is evil and wrong most of the time.

Heheh, how often does knowing how to bake come in handy on THR?

You can check out Norman Coote's belt grinder at this website, it has all the accessories and prices listed.
www.cootebeltgrinder.com

All told, I think I have about 700 in getting mine set up the way I wanted it. That covers everything from the grinder, shipping, materials for the base, motor, wiring it up etc. Its a lot of money, but other machines in this class start at that price.
I went with 3 speed step pulleys (from Norm) and a 1725 rpm motor. This gives a very good range of speed. I generally run it on the slowest setting, but its nice to be able to crank it up. The coarse ceramic belts I use for hogging are unbelievable, they run a long time and cut like a saw. Slow speed actually seems to cut faster when they're new because you don't generate as much heat and don't have to pause as often.

If I had the money I probably would have bought a KMG (www.beaumontmetalworks.com ). I think its about tops for knifemaking right now. Rob Frink designed it using input from all the folks in shoptalk over at bladeforums, and he came up with a rock solid work horse that is very versatile. The attachments, and configurations available for it are amazing. The coote is a heck of a nice grinder, but doesn't offer all the accessories down the road that the KMG does. You really can't go wrong with either machine.

The main advice I can give is that if you're going to spend the money, get a machine that will run a 2X72 belt. You'll save money in the long run

I started with files, and if I had to make another that way I'd of quit for good!

But I bought a Grizzly and that's a great machine, especially for learning. The constant high speed makes it hard to do some things but for the price it's great. http://www.grizzly.com/products/G1015

After using that a few months I got lucky and bought a Bader BIII barely used with a bunch of attachments and got a good deal on it. It has variable speed which makes life much easier for finishing! The set-up I have would be over $2k easy.

Now all I need is a mill and a disc grinder and some other stuff.

There is ALWAYS "other stuff"

I use a dremel all the time, but not for most grinding. Its slow and the bits are expensive. Its for detail work, like cutting locks on folders and doing filework

For fixed blades I use a Dremel only rarely. I thought it's be good for finishing but it sucks, leaving wavy-like marks because the speeds are too slow. There's a high-speed tool for that stuff but it costs alot - instead of 35k RPM it's like 350K RPM.

Alot of knife "pimpers" use Dremels in modifying production knives and I see where they could be useful making folders.

JL Williams got one of those high speed tools and this is what he made with it:



Awesome!

I like the Flame Job.....
Who is the knife maker?