Enemy numbers & their resources
- Thread starter Harve Curry
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crazed_ss
Member
Isnt that the jist of this entire thread?
That Islam is inherently evil due to the teaching's of its holy book and the ultimate goal of Muslims is to convert or wipe out all non-believers?
That Islam is inherently evil due to the teaching's of its holy book and the ultimate goal of Muslims is to convert or wipe out all non-believers?
Looks to me like the gist of the thread is "what to do about Islamic terrorists?"
It discusses numbers, funding, unemployment, sanctions, diplomacy, tactics, the role of religion vs. more mundane motivations.
And you had to toss in something about Christian faith leading to the Spanish Inquisition, without pointing out anything in the Bible that would suggest that such a thing is right. Some other people did the same with the Koran: stated that it contains certain things without any backup.
Evidently, that pushed your buttons. It doesn't push mine, because I have no inherent respect for organized religion -- which I often find little different from any other form of the mob mentality -- though I do believe that there is such thing as evil.
But no, that's not what the whole thread is about.
It discusses numbers, funding, unemployment, sanctions, diplomacy, tactics, the role of religion vs. more mundane motivations.
And you had to toss in something about Christian faith leading to the Spanish Inquisition, without pointing out anything in the Bible that would suggest that such a thing is right. Some other people did the same with the Koran: stated that it contains certain things without any backup.
Evidently, that pushed your buttons. It doesn't push mine, because I have no inherent respect for organized religion -- which I often find little different from any other form of the mob mentality -- though I do believe that there is such thing as evil.
But no, that's not what the whole thread is about.
crazed_ss
Member
Not since post #18 on the first page after we established Islam to be a "sex/death cult"
Getting back to the original post, which asked some questions about the "enemy" number and resources...
I ran across this
world map showing the countries where jihadist activity or presence has been recorded.
The author explains how he made the map and lists the countries by name.
The website supposedly holds references for each.
I ran across this
world map showing the countries where jihadist activity or presence has been recorded.
The author explains how he made the map and lists the countries by name.
The website supposedly holds references for each.
GoRon
Member
Islam does seem to contain some justification for treating unbelievers as lesser folk.
The majority of Muslims seem to ignore these justifications as obsolete or passé.
The problem is Nation States funding the extremist groups and schools. We have 21st century states funding "armies" of 11th century.
The majority of Muslims seem to ignore these justifications as obsolete or passé.
The problem is Nation States funding the extremist groups and schools. We have 21st century states funding "armies" of 11th century.
JohnBT
Member
So you would say the following are inaccurate translations?
Googled up at random, but frequently repeated:
Qur'an, Surah 47:4: "When ye encounter the Infidels, strike off their heads till ye have made a great slaughter among them and the rest make fast the fetters."
___· Is Islam a "sister faith"? Qur'an. Surah 5:51a: "O ye who believe take not the Jews or the Christians for your friends or protectors. They are but friends and protectors of each other."
___ · Do Christians and Muslims worship the same God but by different names? Definitely not! One of the many differences is seen in how these gods instruct their followers to treat those with whom they differ.
___Qur'an 9:5: "Then fight and slay the pagans where you find them and seize them and lie in wait for them in every strategy of war."
Googled up at random, but frequently repeated:
Qur'an, Surah 47:4: "When ye encounter the Infidels, strike off their heads till ye have made a great slaughter among them and the rest make fast the fetters."
___· Is Islam a "sister faith"? Qur'an. Surah 5:51a: "O ye who believe take not the Jews or the Christians for your friends or protectors. They are but friends and protectors of each other."
___ · Do Christians and Muslims worship the same God but by different names? Definitely not! One of the many differences is seen in how these gods instruct their followers to treat those with whom they differ.
___Qur'an 9:5: "Then fight and slay the pagans where you find them and seize them and lie in wait for them in every strategy of war."
Linux&Gun Guy
Member
Remember in Dune the Fremen - very similar to Islamic people in many ways.
Fight against them in a killing war - we loose our empire and are overun and killed
Use social engineering(not the hacker sort) - get oil, keep our empire - stay happy
They breed quickly and have a huge amount of faith - and that always beats opposing armies in the long run.
I hope to finish my education here in the USA and stay here until it sinks into decline and then go to Russia(it may be the next America in terms of capitalism)
Fight against them in a killing war - we loose our empire and are overun and killed
Use social engineering(not the hacker sort) - get oil, keep our empire - stay happy
They breed quickly and have a huge amount of faith - and that always beats opposing armies in the long run.
I hope to finish my education here in the USA and stay here until it sinks into decline and then go to Russia(it may be the next America in terms of capitalism)
Decradius:
Yep, jihadi activity is pretty widespread. In the w hemisphere, Belize looks to be the only English-speaking country free of it. (Does one really need more reasons to visit Belize? "Come for our beaches, tropical jungles, balmy clime, English-speaking population, a favorable exchange rate, and lack of terroristic activity!")
The Brits sure did leave a fine country when they left.
Anyway, this sort of widespread jihadi activity was impossible before the 20th century. Militant Islam was a fearsome foe for 1100 years, but its reach was limited. Nowadays, its reach is enabled by western technology.
crazed_ss:
Deep breaths...in...out...in...out.
I'm sorry if all this discussion of fact disturbs you.
Here's another shocker: just because GWB calls Islam a "religion of peace" and says we are waging a "Global War on Terror," don't necessarily make it so. The Koran does not advocate peace (beyond temporary respite used when outright war is not do-able or advantageous) with non-muslims and Mohammed was not a man of peace. Also, how does one wage a war against a method? It would be more accurate to say we should fight a war against militant Islam or orthodox Islam.
Christian Reformation and Reconciliation with Modernity
Establshed (state) Christianity was in a pretty nasty state for quite a long time. Folks who believed as I did were sought out and punished as heretics. The incestuous nature of the secular and religious power-brokers, combined with a disregard of some core Christian teachings put into practice something similar to what militant Islam would/does practice in its adherence to its teachings.
Luckily, a number of sharp fellows (Luther, Erasmus, Descartes, Aquinas, Calvin, Zwingli, to name a few) showed the way to a closer practice of scriptural teaching and reconciliation with the quickly-changing world. Toss in with sharp debate, war, religious strife & bake for a number of years...and you end up with a faith that co-exists peacefully with secular governments and others not of the same faith (mostly...the last person killed in the Spanish Inquisition was in the year 1800).
Islamic Reformation and Reconciliation with Modernity
This one's gonna be tougher, as the base documents are not secular government and unbeliever-freindly. The practice is there in some places outside of the middle east & countries without a large proportion of muslims, but the intellectual underpinnings are lacking.
I wish those muslims who practice decency to unbelievers well and hope that they will succeed. I don't have the answer to their dilema of being caught between scripture, culture, and present circumstance.
Yep, jihadi activity is pretty widespread. In the w hemisphere, Belize looks to be the only English-speaking country free of it. (Does one really need more reasons to visit Belize? "Come for our beaches, tropical jungles, balmy clime, English-speaking population, a favorable exchange rate, and lack of terroristic activity!")
The Brits sure did leave a fine country when they left.
Anyway, this sort of widespread jihadi activity was impossible before the 20th century. Militant Islam was a fearsome foe for 1100 years, but its reach was limited. Nowadays, its reach is enabled by western technology.
crazed_ss:
Deep breaths...in...out...in...out.
I'm sorry if all this discussion of fact disturbs you.
Here's another shocker: just because GWB calls Islam a "religion of peace" and says we are waging a "Global War on Terror," don't necessarily make it so. The Koran does not advocate peace (beyond temporary respite used when outright war is not do-able or advantageous) with non-muslims and Mohammed was not a man of peace. Also, how does one wage a war against a method? It would be more accurate to say we should fight a war against militant Islam or orthodox Islam.
Christian Reformation and Reconciliation with Modernity
Establshed (state) Christianity was in a pretty nasty state for quite a long time. Folks who believed as I did were sought out and punished as heretics. The incestuous nature of the secular and religious power-brokers, combined with a disregard of some core Christian teachings put into practice something similar to what militant Islam would/does practice in its adherence to its teachings.
Luckily, a number of sharp fellows (Luther, Erasmus, Descartes, Aquinas, Calvin, Zwingli, to name a few) showed the way to a closer practice of scriptural teaching and reconciliation with the quickly-changing world. Toss in with sharp debate, war, religious strife & bake for a number of years...and you end up with a faith that co-exists peacefully with secular governments and others not of the same faith (mostly...the last person killed in the Spanish Inquisition was in the year 1800).
Islamic Reformation and Reconciliation with Modernity
This one's gonna be tougher, as the base documents are not secular government and unbeliever-freindly. The practice is there in some places outside of the middle east & countries without a large proportion of muslims, but the intellectual underpinnings are lacking.
I wish those muslims who practice decency to unbelievers well and hope that they will succeed. I don't have the answer to their dilema of being caught between scripture, culture, and present circumstance.
Harve Curry
Member
I looked at the link provided by Decradius http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/003897.php
they have a world map on the home page colored in red where jihadist operate, it is alarming.
an excerpt:
....Western, and might I add, Christian society POLICES itself. Christians investigate, pursue and prosecute those breaking the law in Western society irregardless of whether the individual was a true Christian or not. Islamic countries not only do NOT investigate, pursue and prosecute radical Islamists, but rather turn and look the other way FOR THE MOST PART.
A tiny minority? "Adherents of militant Islam account for some 15-20 percent of the Muslim world, according to Daniel Pipes, an expert on the subject. This means that more than 150 million people are part of the problem. To make matters worse, they hide among the moderates. They don't wear uniforms and rarely identify themselves." http://www.meforum.org/article/168
150 million enemies?
they have a world map on the home page colored in red where jihadist operate, it is alarming.
an excerpt:
....Western, and might I add, Christian society POLICES itself. Christians investigate, pursue and prosecute those breaking the law in Western society irregardless of whether the individual was a true Christian or not. Islamic countries not only do NOT investigate, pursue and prosecute radical Islamists, but rather turn and look the other way FOR THE MOST PART.
A tiny minority? "Adherents of militant Islam account for some 15-20 percent of the Muslim world, according to Daniel Pipes, an expert on the subject. This means that more than 150 million people are part of the problem. To make matters worse, they hide among the moderates. They don't wear uniforms and rarely identify themselves." http://www.meforum.org/article/168
150 million enemies?
shootinstudent
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Sorry, but there is no honest way to read the Muslim holy book and conclude that it condones killing unarmed people. Restraint, moderation, and peace are stressed over and over in every chapter, and those who take the few "make war" verses out of context do so either willingly or because they have not read the whole book.
In the past, Muslims were one of the few empires that did not erase all traces of the religion and culture of the peoples they conquered...that's why there are still millions of Christians and even more Hindus, and significant communities of the smaller religious groups like Sabians, Alawhites, Zoroastrians, and Jews. The picture of Islam as a faith that requires what animals like Bin Laden are doing is flat out wrong.
Unfortunately for Muslims, our policy seems to be to make friends with the insane fundamentalist camp and give them countries (like Saudi Arabia) while allowing secularists and pro-democracy camps to be destroyed.
Claims about Islam today in America are an exact mirror of pre-WWII claims about Jews. We should recognize that as a people we have a serious problem with hype and hatred toward religious minorities, and take account of that before we start doing to Muslims what we did to Jews for so many decades.
JohnBT,
Is not just an inaccurate translation; it's not in the book. Total fabrication...as an illustration of my point above, fabrications were levelled against Jews in the past too. It is wrong no matter who it happens to.
In the past, Muslims were one of the few empires that did not erase all traces of the religion and culture of the peoples they conquered...that's why there are still millions of Christians and even more Hindus, and significant communities of the smaller religious groups like Sabians, Alawhites, Zoroastrians, and Jews. The picture of Islam as a faith that requires what animals like Bin Laden are doing is flat out wrong.
Unfortunately for Muslims, our policy seems to be to make friends with the insane fundamentalist camp and give them countries (like Saudi Arabia) while allowing secularists and pro-democracy camps to be destroyed.
Claims about Islam today in America are an exact mirror of pre-WWII claims about Jews. We should recognize that as a people we have a serious problem with hype and hatred toward religious minorities, and take account of that before we start doing to Muslims what we did to Jews for so many decades.
JohnBT,
Is not just an inaccurate translation; it's not in the book. Total fabrication...as an illustration of my point above, fabrications were levelled against Jews in the past too. It is wrong no matter who it happens to.
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gc70
Member
Therein lies a problem, acknowledged by many Islamic scholars. The Bible is instructive, but is recognized as the testimony of men about God's plan and is subject to interpretation. The Koran claims to be the literal words of Allah. When people like Osama bin Laden quote from the Koran (even, as you suggest, out of context), the average Muslim must either accept the simple, straightforward meaning of the words or question their validity and, in doing so, deny that they are really the exact words of their god. Being pushed into a corner like that is something that a lot of Muslims appear to be uncomfortable with.
crazed_ss
Member
Muslims, Christians, and Jews all believe in the same unseen God.
Allah means God in Arabic.
Allah means God in Arabic.
shootinstudent
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gc70,
Well, I think a bigger issue is that most Americans do not understand bin laden's religious justifications for what he is doing.
Bin Laden and Al Qaida do not argue that the Quran permits killing people just because they are not Muslim. Instead, they claim that the US and Israel combined have declared war on Islam and killed Muslims, and that therefore, war by Muslims is justified against those countries and their allies.
The theological split is not over indiscriminately killing unbelievers, which every sect (including the most radical) of Islam agrees is forbidden. The split is over whether or not Islam permits "total war", with most arguing that Muslims cannot ever attack unarmed people, no matter what role they play in the war. The radicals do not accept this, and see all members of the US and Israel as "supporters of the war against Islam", and therefore, fair game in "battle."
So not only are there a number of posts on this thread that get Islam totally wrong, they more importantly get the motivations of the Enemy terrorists wrong.
Well, I think a bigger issue is that most Americans do not understand bin laden's religious justifications for what he is doing.
Bin Laden and Al Qaida do not argue that the Quran permits killing people just because they are not Muslim. Instead, they claim that the US and Israel combined have declared war on Islam and killed Muslims, and that therefore, war by Muslims is justified against those countries and their allies.
The theological split is not over indiscriminately killing unbelievers, which every sect (including the most radical) of Islam agrees is forbidden. The split is over whether or not Islam permits "total war", with most arguing that Muslims cannot ever attack unarmed people, no matter what role they play in the war. The radicals do not accept this, and see all members of the US and Israel as "supporters of the war against Islam", and therefore, fair game in "battle."
So not only are there a number of posts on this thread that get Islam totally wrong, they more importantly get the motivations of the Enemy terrorists wrong.
Camp David
member
crazed_ss said:
But the Christians and Jews are not resorting to or sympathizing with terrorism! HUGE difference!
Don't lump all three together... Muslim radical fundamentalism is at the heart of most of the world's violence and unreast. As I speak, state-sponsored terrorism in Lebanon is tearing the nation apart... You don't see Christians or Jews kidnapping hostages, firing rockets, or beheading innocent civilians.
The world is drifting toward two enemy camps; those that sympathize with the terrorist cause and those that don't.
Terrorism cannot, on itself, be allowed to continue; the solution, at present, is to exterminate terrorism where found, and those states that sympathize with it, appear headed for oblivion...
The discussion about religion is interesting, but I think there is more to the problem. In order to address most of the problems in this thread, you first have to understand the thinking of the "leaders" of the enemy, whomever you may think they are. USMA (West Point) has a translation on their Combating Terriosm Center Site you might want to scan.
http://www.ctc.usma.edu/naji.asp
It is a manual by one of the leaders on what they are out to do. Like most repressive leaders, the economic status of the citizens isn't going to be "fixed" until the leaders are shut down, as was done in Germany and Japan after WWII. After looking through it, I agree--I will defend against anyone who tries to force it on me.
"Know thy enemy"--quoted to me by many people as I was trained as a Marine Corps officer.
http://www.ctc.usma.edu/naji.asp
It is a manual by one of the leaders on what they are out to do. Like most repressive leaders, the economic status of the citizens isn't going to be "fixed" until the leaders are shut down, as was done in Germany and Japan after WWII. After looking through it, I agree--I will defend against anyone who tries to force it on me.
"Know thy enemy"--quoted to me by many people as I was trained as a Marine Corps officer.
JohnBT
Member
"In the past, Muslims were one of the few empires that did not erase all traces of the religion and culture of the peoples they conquered..."
I stand corrected. That's mightly peaceful of them. Well, maybe not peaceful, but you know what I mean.
John
I stand corrected. That's mightly peaceful of them. Well, maybe not peaceful, but you know what I mean.
John
shootinstudent
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So what religion were the Serbs?
How about Iain Paisley, ever heard of him?
The Kahane party? Baruch Goldstein?
You don't see Christians killing people in the news everyday because it happens in places we're mostly not interested in. That doesn't mean it's not happening; last I checked, South America and sub-Saharan Africa were among the most violent and nasty places on earth, religious violence included.
The "all good, all bad" dichotomies are best left to the comic books. The real world isn't filled with cartoon character groups who are all evil or all good.
Good link, DavyR
jjohnson
Member
Congratulations, Gentlemen!
Gents, I am truly impressed. Instead of this thread going down the path of Black Helicopters and SHTF, you're showing considerable openmindedness. Kudos to every one of you who sat down and looked at this seriously like Agricola and others. This stuff is SERIOUS - as current as this morning's news of the Israeli rocket attack (Sunday morning news TV July 30).
Who's "The Enemy?" Tough question. If you look at our experiences in places like Indochina (I say that because we weren't simply in Vietnam long ago) or recently Afghanistan and Iraq, we MAKE enemies each day we make a little goof or adjust our foreign policy. People who were our friends a year ago aren't friends anymore, and of course the reverse works as well. With luck and if we're doing right, that balance shifts to our favor. Point is, if you look at any point in time in Vietnam or the Middle East, who are enemy is and how many of them there are is a shifting target that changes every day. If we're lucky, maybe some of our friends (or at least our "not enemies" closer to the deal, like members who are maybe Israeli or Lebanese by family connection) can shed light that's closer to the goings on. I learned with Vietnam that we can't always trust the State Department to tell us the whole story in definitive terms. Wheter that's by design or because they don't KNOW the whole story is another matter. The answer is likely there's some of both in the mix.:banghead:
We tend to be kinda provocational to start with. Every time we send a carrier task force into the Arabian Sea, we're telling everybody - friend and foe alike - that we project power like a flashlight in the dark, and if they all don't behave, we may just decide to take action in our own interest. THAT move alone makes many nations just hate the hell out of us. We're good at using the big stick, apparently not quite as good at speaking softly
Anyway, thanks for having this thread keep off the hotheaded genre of "nuke 'em all and let God sort out the innocent" and such. I'm gonna watch this thread with interest and hope I learn something.
Gents, I am truly impressed. Instead of this thread going down the path of Black Helicopters and SHTF, you're showing considerable openmindedness. Kudos to every one of you who sat down and looked at this seriously like Agricola and others. This stuff is SERIOUS - as current as this morning's news of the Israeli rocket attack (Sunday morning news TV July 30).
Who's "The Enemy?" Tough question. If you look at our experiences in places like Indochina (I say that because we weren't simply in Vietnam long ago) or recently Afghanistan and Iraq, we MAKE enemies each day we make a little goof or adjust our foreign policy. People who were our friends a year ago aren't friends anymore, and of course the reverse works as well. With luck and if we're doing right, that balance shifts to our favor. Point is, if you look at any point in time in Vietnam or the Middle East, who are enemy is and how many of them there are is a shifting target that changes every day. If we're lucky, maybe some of our friends (or at least our "not enemies" closer to the deal, like members who are maybe Israeli or Lebanese by family connection) can shed light that's closer to the goings on. I learned with Vietnam that we can't always trust the State Department to tell us the whole story in definitive terms. Wheter that's by design or because they don't KNOW the whole story is another matter. The answer is likely there's some of both in the mix.:banghead:
We tend to be kinda provocational to start with. Every time we send a carrier task force into the Arabian Sea, we're telling everybody - friend and foe alike - that we project power like a flashlight in the dark, and if they all don't behave, we may just decide to take action in our own interest. THAT move alone makes many nations just hate the hell out of us. We're good at using the big stick, apparently not quite as good at speaking softly
Anyway, thanks for having this thread keep off the hotheaded genre of "nuke 'em all and let God sort out the innocent" and such. I'm gonna watch this thread with interest and hope I learn something.
Linux&Gun Guy
Member
I like you shootingstudent - lots of people today try to make everything black and white and for most people this false image is only seen as false a few decades later. For example Jew bashing - back in the day people really did believe Jews were the enemy - now we know this to be false but only with 20/20 hindsight.
Oh if only most people could have 20/20 "nowsight"
Oh if only most people could have 20/20 "nowsight"
GoRon
Member
Christians involved in terrorism and other sordid acts are usually condemned and ostracized from the main stream quickly.
Mainstream Islam needs to do the same with Hezbollah and other fanatical groups. I tire of the "butt monkeys" that condemn the violent acts with a qualifying "but" and then explain that we need to understand it is our own fault do to our policies (or the Jews fault do to their policies in this case).
It is either wrong to blow people on a bus up or it is not. There is no "but" that makes it right, ever, IMHO. If you believe that it is acceptable to target civilians with acts of terrorism I hope the laser designator finds you some day, followed by a 500 pound bomb.
I don't care about the humanitarian work of Hezbollah. They indiscriminately lob missles into residential nieghborhoods. They strap explosives onto mentally weak people who then blow up men, women and children, not soldiers.
If the Lebonese don't want their country turned into a pile of rubble they will expel Hezbollah members instead of electing them into office.
Mainstream Islam needs to do the same with Hezbollah and other fanatical groups. I tire of the "butt monkeys" that condemn the violent acts with a qualifying "but" and then explain that we need to understand it is our own fault do to our policies (or the Jews fault do to their policies in this case).
It is either wrong to blow people on a bus up or it is not. There is no "but" that makes it right, ever, IMHO. If you believe that it is acceptable to target civilians with acts of terrorism I hope the laser designator finds you some day, followed by a 500 pound bomb.
I don't care about the humanitarian work of Hezbollah. They indiscriminately lob missles into residential nieghborhoods. They strap explosives onto mentally weak people who then blow up men, women and children, not soldiers.
If the Lebonese don't want their country turned into a pile of rubble they will expel Hezbollah members instead of electing them into office.
shootinstudent
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Can you find even one mainstream Islamic organization that has not condemned all terrorism?
The fact is, we need to hear that "but" at the end of the sentence. It's all well and good to say "it was wrong that Jews were persecuted in America for most of America's history!", but that doesn't help you to recognize and fight the persecution of Jews in any specific or effective way, does it?
Linux&gunguy, thanks for making the comparison on hindsight. I see it the same way too.
Fosbery
Member
Just so. Every mainstream Islamic group condemns terrorism. Isn't that how we distinguise between mainstream and radical???
Buts are important. Saying "Hitler shouldn't have murdered the Jews....but it wouldn't have happened if the Jews were armed" is not an argument for killing Jews, it's an argument against killing Jews and an argument against gun control. Equally, saying "Muslims shouldn't blow up civillians...but it wouldn't happen if we wern't so narrow minded" isn't an argument for blowing up civillians, it's an argument against blowing up civillians and against being narrow minded.
Buts are important. Saying "Hitler shouldn't have murdered the Jews....but it wouldn't have happened if the Jews were armed" is not an argument for killing Jews, it's an argument against killing Jews and an argument against gun control. Equally, saying "Muslims shouldn't blow up civillians...but it wouldn't happen if we wern't so narrow minded" isn't an argument for blowing up civillians, it's an argument against blowing up civillians and against being narrow minded.
gc70
Member
The countries of Algeria, Bahrain, Comoros, Djibouti, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Mauritania, Morocco, Oman, Palestine, Qatar, Saudia Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Tunisia, UAE, and Yemen - from The Arab Convention for the Suppression of Terrorism, adopted in Cairo, April 1998:
To recap: Arab states are against terrorism; EXCEPT when it is for a 'noble' cause; BUT even then it is not okay when directed against Arab states.
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