An idea:

And how much violence does it STOP?

(The statement is incorrect BTW, self defense... is NOT revenge. But would HAVE TO be included for this statement to be true.)

In college I was talking to a Vietnam Marine vet who was stationed in Japan for his tour and he told me (to the effect of) "During the 25th ? anniversary of the Bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, that it was something of a national remembrance and they would have a big "get together" in the town square and it was extremely emotional. So much so that his commanding officer told everyone to STAY AWAY! from the ceremony. I guess it could have sparked some hate crime.

Is there any truth to it? I was just having the same discussion with friends a while earlier and wanted to see what THRers have to say about it.

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I think there is truth to that. Remember when Sarajevo was in trouble. Serbs vs Croats. Ethnic cleansing. If some Muslims came and killed my family because we were Christian, I would find it quite hard to turn the other cheek. In fact I may become pro-active.

I think the question of revenge, as motive for killing cannot effectively be restricted to group violence for the statement to be accurate in spirit.

After all, revenge is an individual thing, by definition no "group" can take revenge for anything, at the end of the day an individual made a choice, and that choice cannot be hidden behind the veil of "revenge for my (brethren, religion, computer club, whatever)"

There is a fundamental flaw with your original idea...

Blakenzy said:

Now I am not knocking at individual legitimate self-defense, of body and family, but at violence between social groups, nations, countries.

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It seems like you are confusing violence with revenge. Violence between social groups, nations, countries, etc... Cannot be the product of revenge, retaliation maybe, but not revenge.

In the same way self-defense is in no way related at all to revenge. Self defense is about protection, revenge is about payback.

Self defense is motivated by desire to live

Revenge is motivated by hatred

BIG difference.

Again, revenge is a very hateful action, with a very selfish motivation.

Self-defense is a righteous thing, revenge is anything but.

Now, back to the original question.

I'm not sure where you got the figure that 50% of all killing is motivated by revenge, but I have a very hard time humoring that idea, it seems way too far out there.

I do agree that everyone should "turn the other cheek", that is forgive grievances, don't hold grudges, forgive and forget. I think we would all be a lot happier if everyone did that.

But then again, that is an individual decision.

Turn-the-other-cheek is important in Christianity for slights and non-life threatening situations. If a neighbor/family member insults you, don't go after him or do evil back.... take the high road and forgive.

However, this certainly doesn't apply to being physically attacked or threatened. In fact, most criminals (whom I was around in my line of work) actually became more aggressive when a victim was passive. Just like a dog becomes bold when you run from it and wary when you hold your ground.


This is similar to "Thou Shall Not Kill" from the Bible. It is often misunderstood. The orignal Hebrew meant "murder." "Kill" is different than "murder." Murder is done maliciously for revenge or an evil reason. Killing is necessary in war, by police, and for self-defense against threats.

Is it "revenge" or Justice? Better to write out your full thoughts and why you think that revenge is murder and not justice.

jj

Can I murder Osama Bin Ladin in revenge for 9/11 or will I be bringing justice for the world? I believe justice is brought by holding a person for a crime, within a set system of rules, say the US legal system. Vigilante justice isn't like legal justice. Vigilante justice is more like revenge, sorta similar to a lynch mob?

'Revenge' isn't just getting back at somebody who shot at you, or shot your kid... it can also being getting back at somebody for slowing you down in traffic. Or for insulting you in front of your girlfriend. Or for telling the cops you had a stash of cocaine.
Revenge is a pretty broad brush.

Death needn't be the only solution. There are a lot of things that can be done in retribution(sp). And, on a similar note, there are a lot if things that can't be righted without revenge.

Also, your first statement is bull. If it was true then we wouldn't need a court system.

Revenge is great therapy!

L.W.

It could be said that we held off the Soviet Union through the cold war with the threat of 'revenge'. We were sitting here waiting for them to launch a first strike which would have taken out American cities. They knew that the 'revenge' would take out their cities and very importantly, their leaders and the families of their leaders. Our system did not include any facility for turning the other cheek, if it had it would have been worthless. Their system was very similar. Both sides knew it was a sure thing so it never happened. The act of revenge, or repraisal if you wish, may not make a lot of sense in the end but the threat is very effective.

If this is correct, we could cut world violence in half by following the directive: "turn the other cheek".

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Yea, a couple people have tried that already: Jesus, Ghandi, etc. Human beings are too busy trying to satisfying their pride (being their own or that of their nation).

I'd posit that tribalism is responsible for most of the violence in the world.

"An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth," makes sense to me in some cases.
For instance, if someone intentionally hurt someone near to me (for no good reason), I would happily give them the same in return. Now, laws and all being what they are, I might be persuaded differently by the fact that I would then be subject to penalty. Maybe not though.
Turn the other cheek, and you will get that one hurt too. Bad people are not stopped by good intentions.

Fn-P9

I guess it could have sparked some hate crimes

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You probably didn't consider this as PC, but have you ever heard of a "Love Crime"?

I used to turn the other cheek but now I do unto others as they do unto me.

Can I murder Osama Bin Ladin in revenge for 9/11 or will I be bringing justice for the world? I believe justice is brought by holding a person for a crime, within a set system of rules, say the US legal system. Vigilante justice isn't like legal justice. Vigilante justice is more like revenge, sorta similar to a lynch mob?

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In a place where the legal system dosent always decide in favor of "Justice" but instead on the side of wealth, status or fear of public opinion, If "hypothetically" a person commits a terrible crime against another mans family and the court system dosent punish or the punishment is well under-deserved because of a highly paid lawyer or technicality and that man brings what he thinks is justice to that person is that more on the side of justice or revenge?
I guess its just like every thing else, in that how we view it isnt always the "truth" by the time we see it in the media its what they want us to see, or chopped up so much that we dont see the whole picture. It goes with the other part of "Turn the other cheek" which is "Dont Judge".. just my 2cents

There defiantly is no easy answer. Maybe revenge vs justice is more of a human gut instinct? I don't know.

You probably didn't consider this as PC, but have you ever heard of a "Love Crime"?

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What is a love crime?